Southeastern Franchise: Extension granted for minimum 18 months

brad465 · 3 Dec 2019

Snow1964 said:
Correct it would be wrong for a contract (extension) to be signed during purdah

Of course it is an extension to multiple extensions as should have ended 1st April 2019, then 22 June 2019 then 19 Nov 2019, then 1st April 2020

But I do think getting a 5th (or is it more) extension with nobody else being allowed to compete is farcical

The Invitation to Tender was over 24 months ago, and failing to decide what to do for so long is excessive dithering even if trying to incorporate the Williams review suggestions
https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/south-eastern-franchise-2017-invitation-to-tender

I think the original date at the end of the 4 year extension was near the end of 2018. The rest though I agree with.

RailUK Forums

superkopite · 6 Dec 2019

What actually is the Operator Of Last Resort. Apologies, I don't understand the concept.

Snow1964 · 6 Dec 2019

superkopite said:
What actually is the Operator Of Last Resort. Apologies, I don't understand the concept.

Basically a Government operated contract, strictly a company 100% owned by the Government

Although the Conservative Government would never use the phrase Nationalised, that it what it is in practical terms. Every employee and asset is transferred into the new company and all the contracts transferred and leases novated into the Govt Co. So carries on running the service although under new ownership.

Meerkat · 6 Dec 2019

Snow1964 said:
Basically a Government operated contract, strictly a company 100% owned by the Government

Although the Conservative Government would never use the phrase Nationalised, that it what it is in practical terms. Every employee and asset is transferred into the new company and all the contracts transferred and leases novated into the Govt Co. So carries on running the service although under new ownership.

Is the OLR owned by the government? I thought it was contracted out, so actually not that different to a franchise under a management contract?

superkopite · 6 Dec 2019

Snow1964 said:
Basically a Government operated contract, strictly a company 100% owned by the Government

Although the Conservative Government would never use the phrase Nationalised, that it what it is in practical terms. Every employee and asset is transferred into the new company and all the contracts transferred and leases novated into the Govt Co. So carries on running the service although under new ownership.

Thanks!

hwl · 6 Dec 2019

Meerkat said:
Is the OLR owned by the government? I thought it was contracted out, so actually not that different to a franchise under a management contract?

The senior management and some directors and consultancy are supplied by several contractors Arup, E&Y and SNC -Lavalin. e.g. filling the gap that an owning group normally would.

Meerkat · 7 Dec 2019

hwl said:
The senior management and some directors and consultancy are supplied by several contractors Arup, E&Y and SNC -Lavalin. e.g. filling the gap that an owning group normally would.

Thanks. So the actual company is owned by the DfT?

daveshah · 7 Dec 2019

Meerkat said:
Thanks. So the actual company is owned by the DfT?

Yes (the secretary of state in a strict legal sense). https://beta.companieshouse.gov.uk/company/07141122/persons-with-significant-control

Shug · 22 Feb 2020

As we are about 5 weeks from the end of the Southeastern franchise and there is no announcement about the OLR taking over, can we assume that there will be a direct award?

Jorge Da Silva · 22 Feb 2020

https://www.railmagazine.com/news/network/doubts-cast-over-future-of-southeastern-c2c-and-xc

The Southeastern franchise could yet follow LNER and Northern in being run by the Department for Transport’s Operator of Last Resort, the Government has suggested.

Govia has operated the current Southeastern franchise since April 1 2006. It is due to end on March 31, having been extended three times. Initially it was due to finish in March 2014, but this was extended to June 2018. Government then extended it again while also cancelling bidding for the new franchise in August last year.

In a Commons Written Reply on February 6, Rail Minister Chris Heaton-Harris told Sir David Evennett (Conservative, Bexleyheath and Crayford), who had asked about a timetable for the new SE franchise: “Following the decision to cancel the Southeastern franchise competition, the Department is developing a solution to deliver benefits to passengers as quickly as possible.

“In the immediate term, the Department is considering the most appropriate route to contract the franchise after April 1 2020. This could be in the form of either another Direct Award with the incumbent operator, or the transfer of the franchise to the Operator of Last Resort. A decision that puts passengers’ interests first will be made in March.”

The financial viability of c2c has also been raised in the national press, with passenger numbers thought to have been affected by the impact of Brexit on the City of London, where many of c2c’s commuters work.

Responding to this, a DfT spokesman told RAIL: “The Department for Transport closely monitors all train operators. We do not speculate on the financial health of any particular franchise but expect all franchises to meet their contractual commitments.”

this might answer your question

Shug · 22 Feb 2020

Jorge Da Silva said:
https://www.railmagazine.com/news/network/doubts-cast-over-future-of-southeastern-c2c-and-xc

this might answer your question

Thanks, decision in March doesn’t leave much time for the OLR to mobilise

LNW-GW Joint · 22 Feb 2020

Meerkat said:
Is the OLR owned by the government? I thought it was contracted out, so actually not that different to a franchise under a management contract?

It's both.
The OLR function (ie funding and management) belongs directly to DfT, but the delivery is contracted out to a consortium of consultants, like LNER and now Northern.
While it is "publicly owned" it is not "nationalised" in any serious sense.
It would still be a commercial TOC operating the same access agreements negotiated with ORR for Southeastern (or whoever is the previous TOC).
It will still have financial objectives (though we won't know what they are for a year or so).
The staff are still employed by the same body, but under OLR control rather than Govia.
As the law stands the OLR cannot operate a TOC for more than two years before it is either re-tendered as a franchise, or extended for a further spell.
In truth, it's no different to a situation where Govia was granted a new management contract for 2 years, but the politics would be different.

Nicholas Lewis · 26 Feb 2020

With GWR also needing an extension and OLR dealing with the Northern basket case along with the reasonable performance of both TOCs it has to be direct awards again. OLR firepower best kept in reserve to absorb SWR as they are financially bankrupt.

KingJ · 12 Mar 2020

Go-Ahead disclosed the following in their half-year results;

In final stages of discussions with the Department for Transport regarding a potential direct award contract for Southeastern beyond its scheduled end date of 31 March 2020

Interestingly they also reported that profit on Southeastern was down "under new contractual terms".

Nicholas Lewis · 13 Mar 2020

KingJ said:
Go-Ahead disclosed the following in their half-year results;

Interestingly they also reported that profit on Southeastern was down "under new contractual terms".

Given current events continuity is most important so this is the right outcome

unkn0wn erRxr · 27 Mar 2020

Being a regular Southeastern user, I think its time for them to go. They have served well for 14 years, but I would really like to see how the railway goes in government hands. But with the current situation (COVID-19) I think that they are just going to be given and extension.

Regarding the Lewisham issue, is the signalling old? 1980s?

ComUtoR · 27 Mar 2020

unkn0wn erRxr said:
but I would really like to see how the railway goes in government hands.

It would be worse. They have been under Government control before. Government control is basically lipstick on a pig.

brad465 · 27 Mar 2020

unkn0wn erRxr said:
Regarding the Lewisham issue, is the signalling old? 1980s?

It was, although most of it was replaced with LEDs over time, especially when Tanners Hill was doubled. I believe it's all being done over again as part of the Three Bridges transfer.

hwl · 27 Mar 2020

unkn0wn erRxr said:
Being a regular Southeastern user, I think its time for them to go. They have served well for 14 years, but I would really like to see how the railway goes in government hands. But with the current situation (COVID-19) I think that they are just going to be given and extension.

Regarding the Lewisham issue, is the signalling old? 1980s?

Early to mid 1970s signalling.

You really don't want DfT in charge...

SlimJim1694 · 27 Mar 2020

unkn0wn erRxr said:
They have served well for 14 years

Best laugh I've had in ages!

Taunton · 27 Mar 2020

We're really in "Angels dancing on a pinhead" territory here https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/How_many_angels_can_dance_on_the_head_of_a_pin? . The fact is the government, alias DfT, give out franchises, run the OLR, run Network rail, etc. It's entirely their trainset (relevant metaphor). It's a fiction that the railway has been under anything other than government control since 1939. Even Railtrack was knocked on the head by a ministerial decision.

unkn0wn erRxr · 28 Mar 2020

imagine tfl taking over southeastern metro services

unkn0wn erRxr · 28 Mar 2020

brad465 said:
It was, although most of it was replaced with LEDs over time, especially when Tanners Hill was doubled. I believe it's all being done over again as part of the Three Bridges transfer.

i mean looking at recent pictures of the junction at lewisham, it doesn’t look the best
but
those LED Dorman signals are still better than the VMS Lightweight ones

hwl · 28 Mar 2020

SlimJim1694 said:
Best laugh I've had in ages!

Southeastern biggest issue with changing things or improving is DfT...

Shug · 28 Mar 2020

Is it right that an announcement about the direct award has to be made on Monday or Tuesday? And if it doesn’t happen will the OLR take over on Wednesday morning?

HamworthyGoods · 29 Mar 2020

Shug said:
Is it right that an announcement about the direct award has to be made on Monday or Tuesday? And if it doesn’t happen will the OLR take over on Wednesday morning?

There’s now insufficient time for OLR to take over leaving no choice but to carry on. Not enough time to TUPE staff etc.

Hadders · 29 Mar 2020

unkn0wn erRxr said:
imagine tfl taking over southeastern metro services

TfL are massively strapped for cash. The idea that you could stick a TfL roundel on the trains and things would massively improve overnight is misguided. TfL aren't exactly covering themselves in glory on the lines they took over out of Liverpool Street.

Domh245 · 29 Mar 2020

Because of COVID19, the whole situation is unclear but I would think that they've moved onto an Emergency Measures agreement and they'll pick up where they left off (ie 'normal' direct award or OLR) once the situation is returning to normal

Jorge Da Silva · 29 Mar 2020

Domh245 said:
Because of COVID19, the whole situation is unclear but I would think that they've moved onto an Emergency Measures agreement and they'll pick up where they left off (ie 'normal' direct award or OLR) once the situation is returning to normal

If franchising ever resumes, which could be unlikely due to the Williams Review likely to recommend it being scrapped

class303 · 29 Mar 2020

Hadders said:
TfL are massively strapped for cash. The idea that you could stick a TfL roundel on the trains and things would massively improve overnight is misguided. TfL aren't exactly covering themselves in glory on the lines they took over out of Liverpool Street.

How so?

Southeastern Franchise: Extension granted for minimum 18 months

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