Northern Class 331: Construction/Introduction Updates

Ilkley333 · 5 Mar 2020

Just been on one of these, but sitting in coach B for the first time. The banging from the pantograph was pretty disconcerting until I worked out what it was and it would frighten more sensitive souls! Is this normal on EMUs (I’ve never heard it on the 333s but then the pantograph is above the toilet I think) or is the 331 particularly bad?

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Llama · 5 Mar 2020

It's the VCB not the pantograph, and is particularly loud on the 331s. Almost as loud as the air blast breakers on 1st gen AC EMUs.

Bantamzen · 5 Mar 2020

Roast Veg said:
Surely it would be better to extend as many of the 331/0s to 4 car as possible? Northern have great swathes of 3 car units in the form of the 323s in the west, and only demand (for now) for 4 car units on the majority of routes, especially on the east side but also on Liv/Man workings.

I was thinking specifically about the 4 car 331s in use in West Yorkshire.

Wharfe106 · 5 Mar 2020

ohgoditsjames said:
The 331's simply aren't fit for purpose for the busy commuter routes that are the Airedale and Wharfedale lines.

Has there been an indication that they'll be altered in the future? The tables are unnecessary beyond belief!

I think you may be missing the rationale behind the new units.

Firstly, Northern needs to increase its revenue dramatically to reduce the subsidy. A way to do this is to make the trains more attractive to off-peak and optional travel.

So the 331s have more space than late 333s to accommodate standing commuter traffic, but the 2+2 seating and the abundance of tables with good window views is specifically there to attract off-peak custom.

And yes, the plan was, and maybe still is, to operate six car 331s on the peak services into Leeds from both Ilkley and Skipton, and 4-car 333s on the routes serving Bradford. But as stated elsewhere six cars cannot start at least until platform Zero at Leeds is completed, at the earliest at the end of next year.

Splitting out the diagrams like this has the added benefit of improving reliability, since at the moment with such complicated diagramming affects the whole circuit.

A study showed that 333s could not be modified with 2+2 seating and added room for standing, so the six car 331 solution is the best available. And don't forget, ordering extra carriages would cost well over £1 million apiece, money which has to come from additional subsidy, i.e from the general taxation pot!

Roger B · 5 Mar 2020

Wharfe106 said:
I think you may be missing the rationale behind the new units.

Firstly, Northern needs to increase its revenue dramatically to reduce the subsidy. A way to do this is to make the trains more attractive to off-peak and optional travel.

So the 331s have more space than late 333s to accommodate standing commuter traffic, but the 2+2 seating and the abundance of tables with good window views is specifically there to attract off-peak custom.

And yes, the plan was, and maybe still is, to operate six car 331s on the peak services into Leeds from both Ilkley and Skipton, and 4-car 333s on the routes serving Bradford. But as stated elsewhere six cars cannot start at least until platform Zero at Leeds is completed, at the earliest at the end of next year.

Splitting out the diagrams like this has the added benefit of improving reliability, since at the moment with such complicated diagramming affects the whole circuit.

A study showed that 333s could not be modified with 2+2 seating and added room for standing, so the six car 331 solution is the best available. And don't forget, ordering extra carriages would cost well over £1 million apiece, money which has to come from additional subsidy, i.e from the general taxation pot!

True enough, but £1mill a pop is pin money for transport investment, which is often quoted in £bns these days. And certainly is in the loose change category when compared with many of the projects in the south-east: crossrail, Northern extension, etc.

I can't help thinking if these lines were in the south-east, lengthening these trains would already have happened - look at the 378s: delivered as three car, then to four, and now five - and now talking of trying to increase frequencies. Lengthen the trains, and punters put-off by not being able to find a seat will leave their cars and use the train. If a decent, frequent and reliable service is provided, people will us it. Everyone wins - passengers, the environment, the railway industry. Simps.

jfollows · 5 Mar 2020

ohgoditsjames said:
The 331's simply aren't fit for purpose for the busy commuter routes that are the Airedale and Wharfedale lines.

Has there been an indication that they'll be altered in the future? The tables are unnecessary beyond belief!

I said pretty much the same thing about their use on the Crewe line earlier in this topic, #1452. Presumably it's a case of "one type doesn't suit all" rather than having the units optimised for the use on the services they find themselves on.

Bantamzen · 5 Mar 2020

Wharfe106 said:
I think you may be missing the rationale behind the new units.

Firstly, Northern needs to increase its revenue dramatically to reduce the subsidy. A way to do this is to make the trains more attractive to off-peak and optional travel.

So the 331s have more space than late 333s to accommodate standing commuter traffic, but the 2+2 seating and the abundance of tables with good window views is specifically there to attract off-peak custom.

And yes, the plan was, and maybe still is, to operate six car 331s on the peak services into Leeds from both Ilkley and Skipton, and 4-car 333s on the routes serving Bradford. But as stated elsewhere six cars cannot start at least until platform Zero at Leeds is completed, at the earliest at the end of next year.

Splitting out the diagrams like this has the added benefit of improving reliability, since at the moment with such complicated diagramming affects the whole circuit.

A study showed that 333s could not be modified with 2+2 seating and added room for standing, so the six car 331 solution is the best available. And don't forget, ordering extra carriages would cost well over £1 million apiece, money which has to come from additional subsidy, i.e from the general taxation pot!

Just to pick up on one small point, the 331s will not be replacing the 333s on the Aire / Wharfe services, its the 321/322s they are replacing.

oscarthecat92 · 5 Mar 2020

Roger B said:
True enough, but £1mill a pop is pin money for transport investment, which is often quoted in £bns these days. And certainly is in the loose change category when compared with many of the projects in the south-east: crossrail, Northern extension, etc.

I can't help thinking if these lines were in the south-east, lengthening these trains would already have happened - look at the 378s: delivered as three car, then to four, and now five - and now talking of trying to increase frequencies. Lengthen the trains, and punters put-off by not being able to find a seat will leave their cars and use the train. If a decent, frequent and reliable service is provided, people will us it. Everyone wins - passengers, the environment, the railway industry. Simps.

Completely agree with the south east point. Down in London today and as a regular commuter on the Airedale line 4 coach trains just wouldn't be tolerated down here. The Aire and Wharfe must be profitable routes with a very clear case to invest in longer platforms. Hopefully the 6 car working will still come off.

Nymanic · 5 Mar 2020

A "wide 23m" bodyshell design (as per 323s/333s) could've been a happy medium for the CAF units, allowing for either 2+2 with wider aisles, or 3+2 for certain routes or markets. You'd then have a versatile train that could run regional expresses, while still replacing the likes of 150s and 319s on commuter runs, and also proving a more viable prospect if the 333s need to be retired. I don't think it's physically possible to shoehorn a 3+2 layout into the current design?

I assume the costly matter of gauge clearance precluded a wider design? Unfortunate if so.

xotGD · 5 Mar 2020

Bantamzen said:
Just to pick up on one small point, the 331s will not be replacing the 333s on the Aire / Wharfe services, its the 321/322s they are replacing.

This is a point that seems to require repeating every couple of weeks. Unless some 333s get switched to Doncaster services there will be just as many working up the Dales. My morning train is solid 321/2 and I'd be very happy for this to switch to 331s.

warwickshire · 5 Mar 2020

Also today Thursday 05 march I have been informed by a northern rail member off staff that owning to the failure off the 331 on the Stoke-on-Trent line this week. A meeting took place today about the ongoing issues with 331 as a way forward. And new owners olr want some solutions.

Bovverboy · 7 Mar 2020

Bantamzen said:
I understood, mainly from previous threads on the subject, that the intention for 6 car services was Leeds-Skipton in the peaks, with possibly some strengthening on Leeds-Ilkley. As others have noted, this would require the various diagrams to be split, because as things stand all triangle services interwork all routes at some point, with Bradford & Leeds being the usual places where an incoming services turns back to a different destination.

In the middle of the day, Mondays to Saturdays, the standard circuit is Leeds - Bradford - Ilkley - Bradford - Skipton - Bradford - Leeds - Ilkley - Leeds - Skipton - Leeds, round trip time 7.5 hours, unit requirement 15.
The above circuit gets amended at peak, so there shouldn't be any problem picking out particular journeys for 6-car operation.

Wharfe106 · 7 Mar 2020

Bantamzen said:
Just to pick up on one small point, the 331s will not be replacing the 333s on the Aire / Wharfe services, its the 321/322s they are replacing.

Yes, agreed, slightly woolly wording, but if, BIG IF, 6-car 331s work Skipton and Ilkley to Leeds in the peak, then some 333s will be displaced

Wharfe106 · 7 Mar 2020

Bovverboy said:
In the middle of the day, Mondays to Saturdays, the standard circuit is Leeds - Bradford - Ilkley - Bradford - Skipton - Bradford - Leeds - Ilkley - Leeds - Skipton - Leeds, round trip time 7.5 hours, unit requirement 15.
The above circuit gets amended at peak, so there shouldn't be any problem picking out particular journeys for 6-car operation.

I am grateful you have worked that out!! When the 333s were first introduced the Standard circuit was different and the round-trip time was seven hours, requiring 14 units, hence why 16 were acquired. One early morning train was formed on a 158, and there was one extra diagram at peak times, so the 333s were stretched. Trouble is we don't know what the present plan is for 331s on the Aire/Wharfe, as it awaits the lengthening of platforms etc, but I do seem to recall that initially the idea was that they would displace 333s to Manchester, but I am NOT saying this is still the case at all!!

61653 HTAFC · 7 Mar 2020

I don't recall anything about 333s heading to Manchester, just that once 331s displaced some 333s from the triangle, those 333s would work to Doncaster in place of the Dusty bins.

Roger B · 7 Mar 2020

Which units have still to be delivered and which have yet to enter service. When is it expected that all units will be in service? Thanks

palmersears · 9 Mar 2020

028 is now at Edge Hill, leaving just 029-031 still to be delivered.

Greybeard33 · 9 Mar 2020

Network Rail's Greater Manchester’s South East Rail Corridor Study 2020 was published recently and can be downloaded from https://www.networkrail.co.uk/running-the-railway/long-term-planning ("LNW planning" section). It discusses the need to increase capacity on the Piccadilly to Glossop/Hadfield line and states that:

To deliver this, Northern is investigating a number of potential scenarios, one being the replacement of 3-car Class 323s with 4-car Class 331s (thus increasing the standing passenger capacity of the trains). Other options include potentially increasing the service frequency on the line, whilst continuing to utilise the Class 323s. For the purposes of the Study though, it was assumed that the 4-Car Class 331s would have been successfully introduced.

But an "Updated Recommendations" section has been tacked on to the Executive Summary. This says (my bolding):

The introduction of 4-car services with a slightly revised timetable has been shown to meet the forecast growth until at least 2033. The Study concludes that no further action is required in this period once the franchise commitments that would deliver this additional capacity are met. However, since the start of the Study, it has become apparent that 4-car Class 331s cannot be introduced until the stabling capacity for trains is increased in Manchester.

In the meantime, the Study recommends reviewing the need for an increase in service frequency utilising the current 3-car Class 323 trains.

I am not sure what to make of this, nor what the implications are for the continued use of the 4-car 331s on the routes out of Leeds and Bradford (bearing in mind there are only 12 of them, originally all intended to be used on the routes out of Manchester and Liverpool).

Goldie · 20 Mar 2020

Old and new at Lime Street:

Jamesrob637 · 21 Mar 2020

palmersears said:
028 is now at Edge Hill, leaving just 029-031 still to be delivered.

Could be the last for a while.

Adam0984 · 21 Mar 2020

331s were tested in multiple last night round the Leeds North West Triangle

Halish Railway · 21 Mar 2020

331 106 has been stuck at Ilkley all day - probably a severe failure.

Halifaxlad · 21 Mar 2020

Wharfe106 said:
A study showed that 333s could not be modified with 2+2 seating and added room for standing, so the six car 331 solution is the best available.

if we wait long enough it might be ideal to lease some of the 37 or so 4 car 350/2 that should be returned to Porterbrook next year ?

That way we could easily let the 333's or the 331's slip off to Manchester. Although these do have 2+3 seating, surely it can't be that hard to re-fit them in 2+2 since thats exactly how the 350/1s & 350/3's are designed.

Platforms would have to be lengthened by approximately 20 more meters however in comparison to what would be required for 2, 331's if these were to run as 2, 4 car sets.

Geeves · 27 Mar 2020

331013 became the first of the class to Visit Derbshire this morning with a test trip to Hadfield and back.

jonesy3001 · 28 Mar 2020

Geeves said:
331013 became the first of the class to Visit Derbshire this morning with a test trip to Hadfield and back.

Will they be taking over from the 323s or just clearing them on the hadfield line?

Halish Railway · 28 Mar 2020

jonesy3001 said:
Will they be taking over from the 323s or just clearing them on the hadfield line?

I think the original plan was to use 331/1s on the Hadfield line, hence the platform extensions in places. This will probably happen when the remaining 331/1s are transfered from Neville Hill TMD to Allerton.

oscarthecat92 · 28 Mar 2020

Halish Railway said:
I think the original plan was to use 331/1s on the Hadfield line, hence the platform extensions in places. This will probably happen when the remaining 331/1s are transfered from Neville Hill TMD to Allerton.

What will replace the 331/1s at Neville Hill?

_toommm_ · 28 Mar 2020

Halish Railway said:
I think the original plan was to use 331/1s on the Hadfield line, hence the platform extensions in places. This will probably happen when the remaining 331/1s are transfered from Neville Hill TMD to Allerton.

Let's hope not - moving from 3+2 to 2+2 with tables (even with four coaches) may have an impact on seating availability on what was a crowded line (obviously before the current situation).

Halish Railway · 28 Mar 2020

oscarthecat92 said:
What will replace the 331/1s at Neville Hill?

The current West Yorkshire 331/1 diagrams will be taken over by pairs of 331/0s and existing 333s.

theblackwatch · 28 Mar 2020

I gather 331112 was moved to the east side of the Pennines yesterday, being dragged to Skipton.

Northern Class 331: Construction/Introduction Updates

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