How to find permitted routes, and smart cards with multiple TOC's

Hallo. A bit of background: from September I will be needing to commute from Sandal & Agbrigg (SNA) to Huddersfield (HUD), every week day, I am wanting to buy a season ticket - probably annual - and probably put it on a smart card. I am wanting to know what the permitted routes are.

I bought an 'Any permitted route' ticket from the NT, TMV at Sandal, with my 16-17 Saver-Railcard. I changed at Leeds, and there was a delay on the next train towards Huddersfield. The bridge-link Starbucks was (for some reason) closed, so I went to the gate line, to go out to the Starbucks on the concourse, and the ticket barrier let me straight through, with my SNA to HUD ticket. I got a coffee, and went straight back through the gate line, without a problem. On the other side were a couple of 'Revenue Protection Officers.' I am not sure which TOC they were with - I can’t quite remember.

The RP told me he didn't think it would be a permitted route, via Leeds, even though my ticket had worked - but told me he wasn't entirely sure, and they didn't have a way to check for a permitted route, but that I should really get a train from SNA to Wakefield Westgate (WKF) - 2tph - and either get a train - 1tph/walk to Wakefield Kirkgate (WKK), an get another train from WKK to HUD - again 1tph - and that taking a Northern train from SNA to LDS, and changing for a TPE service, direct to HUD, would not be a permitted route.

In someways, I can see how this would make sense, trying to minimise the large crowds of commuters at LDS station, by making the routings avoid them, where possible, an the RP told me he wasn't entirely sure, but I should use his (much slower route) instead. However, when I looked at the train times on the National Rail app, and put SNA to HUD in, all trains were via Leeds.

So, it's fair to say, I'm at a bit of a loss.

My other, lesser query, is that I have a TPE smart card, that I applied for - for free - and the FAQ page on the TPE website says

Can I use my Smart card on other Train Operators’ services?
"Yes, your Smart card can be used on any operator’s service, if it contains a valid ticket for the journey you are making."

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Does this mean it has to be an alternative route, i.e. that you can use a TPE service, or another service, but it has to be in part valid for a TPE route, and if so, should I just use a NT smart card, if I will only use NT because of routing restrictions, or would just an annual paper season be easier.

My 2 Questions:

• How can you find the exact permitted routing of tickets, if they aren't explicitly stated.
• What are the inter-TOC-usability restrictions when using smart cards.

Thank-you all.

pcm_ said:

Hallo. A bit of background: from September I will be needing to commute from Sandal & Agbrigg (SNA) to Huddersfield (HUD), every week day, I am wanting to buy a season ticket - probably annual - and probably put it on a smart card. I am wanting to know what the permitted routes are.

I bought an 'Any permitted route' ticket from the NT, TMV at Sandal, with my 16-17 Saver-Railcard. I changed at Leeds, and there was a delay on the next train towards Huddersfield. The bridge-link Starbucks was (for some reason) closed, so I went to the gate line, to go out to the Starbucks on the concourse, and the ticket barrier let me straight through, with my SNA to HUD ticket. I got a coffee, and went straight back through the gate line, without a problem. On the other side were a couple of 'Revenue Protection Officers.' I am not sure which TOC they were with - I can’t quite remember.

The RP told me he didn't think it would be a permitted route, via Leeds, even though my ticket had worked - but told me he wasn't entirely sure, and they didn't have a way to check for a permitted route, but that I should really get a train from SNA to Wakefield Westgate (WKF) - 2tph - and either get a train - 1tph/walk to Wakefield Kirkgate (WKK), an get another train from WKK to HUD - again 1tph - and that taking a Northern train from SNA to LDS, and changing for a TPE service, direct to HUD, would not be a permitted route.

In someways, I can see how this would make sense, trying to minimise the large crowds of commuters at LDS station, by making the routings avoid them, where possible, an the RP told me he wasn't entirely sure, but I should use his (much slower route) instead. However, when I looked at the train times on the National Rail app, and put SNA to HUD in, all trains were via Leeds.

So, it's fair to say, I'm at a bit of a loss.

My other, lesser query, is that I have a TPE smart card, that I applied for - for free - and the FAQ page on the TPE website says

Does this mean it has to be an alternative route, i.e. that you can use a TPE service, or another service, but it has to be in part valid for a TPE route, and if so, should I just use a NT smart card, if I will only use NT because of routing restrictions, or would just an annual paper season be easier.

My 2 Questions:

• How can you find the exact permitted routing of tickets, if they aren't explicitly stated.
• What are the inter-TOC-usability restrictions when using smart cards.

Thank-you all.

Click to expand...

Permitted routes are determined by the Routing Guide (http://data.atoc.org/routeing-guide) but it's rather complicated. The inter-TOC-usability is the same on smartcards as the equivalent paper tickets so you may use any TOC with an any permitted ticket.

Thank-you very much! Having a look, following all the steps, then putting that on to the map, Sandal & Agbrigg falls into 'Wakefield Group' stations, and Wakefield Group stations, to 'Huddersfield Group' stations as either 'DH,' close to the route suggested to me at Leeds, or 'YN & HL,' which shows Huddersfield to Leeds (YN), and Leeds to 'Wakefield Group' stations (HL), so I think that mean that I am good via Leeds, i.e. (NT) SNA to LDS, and (TPE) LDS to HUD.

Thank-you for the help.
: )

pcm_ said:

Hallo. A bit of background: from September I will be needing to commute from Sandal & Agbrigg (SNA) to Huddersfield (HUD), every week day, I am wanting to buy a season ticket - probably annual - and probably put it on a smart card. I am wanting to know what the permitted routes are.

I bought an 'Any permitted route' ticket from the NT, TMV at Sandal, with my 16-17 Saver-Railcard. I changed at Leeds, and there was a delay on the next train towards Huddersfield. The bridge-link Starbucks was (for some reason) closed, so I went to the gate line, to go out to the Starbucks on the concourse, and the ticket barrier let me straight through, with my SNA to HUD ticket. I got a coffee, and went straight back through the gate line, without a problem. On the other side were a couple of 'Revenue Protection Officers.' I am not sure which TOC they were with - I can’t quite remember.

The RP told me he didn't think it would be a permitted route, via Leeds, even though my ticket had worked - but told me he wasn't entirely sure, and they didn't have a way to check for a permitted route, but that I should really get a train from SNA to Wakefield Westgate (WKF) - 2tph - and either get a train - 1tph/walk to Wakefield Kirkgate (WKK), an get another train from WKK to HUD - again 1tph - and that taking a Northern train from SNA to LDS, and changing for a TPE service, direct to HUD, would not be a permitted route.

In someways, I can see how this would make sense, trying to minimise the large crowds of commuters at LDS station, by making the routings avoid them, where possible, an the RP told me he wasn't entirely sure, but I should use his (much slower route) instead. However, when I looked at the train times on the National Rail app, and put SNA to HUD in, all trains were via Leeds.

So, it's fair to say, I'm at a bit of a loss.

My other, lesser query, is that I have a TPE smart card, that I applied for - for free - and the FAQ page on the TPE website says

Does this mean it has to be an alternative route, i.e. that you can use a TPE service, or another service, but it has to be in part valid for a TPE route, and if so, should I just use a NT smart card, if I will only use NT because of routing restrictions, or would just an annual paper season be easier.

My 2 Questions:

• How can you find the exact permitted routing of tickets, if they aren't explicitly stated.
• What are the inter-TOC-usability restrictions when using smart cards.

Thank-you all.

Click to expand...

As a simple guide:
- if the nationalrail.co.uk website shows the journey you want to make on a single ticket (as opposed to a conbination of tickets), then that is a permitted route
- it doesn't matter where you got your smartcard from; as long as you have a valid ticket loaded on it then that is fine.

The RPIs at Leeds should not be making such comments, and casting doubts in passengers' minds, if they are uncertain themselves. You should write to LNER / Northern (I'm assuming the RPIs worked for one of them) to raise this matter; a simple email will do.

Mainline421 said:

Permitted routes are determined by the Routing Guide (http://data.atoc.org/routeing-guide) but it's rather complicated.

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To expand on that, there are four things that are ALWAYS Permitted Routes, UNLESS restricted by a TOC-specific or geographic routeing on the ticket:

• The shortest route (by rail) between two stations - or other routes within 3 miles of same
• A direct train between two stations
• Routes produced by the National Rail journey planner that are shown as only needing one ticket
• Itineraries produced by accredited rail ticket booking sites (Which may well actually be completely wrong, but if you've bought a ticket against a given itinerary in good faith that SHOULD be the original retailer's problem rather than yours)

For anything else, you need to refer to the Routeing Guide. (NB: In practice, the majority of ticket checking staff still work on the principle of "reasonable" routes, for reasons that will become clear, with the routeing guide mainly being used to prove a point.)

The first step is to determine routeing points for the origin and destination stations. These are located in Section B (aka the "Pink Pages").

Possibilities for Sandal & Agbrigg are Doncaster, Pontefract Group*, Swinton (S. Yorks) and Wakefield Group$, whilst Huddersfield is a member of Huddersfield Group+.

* Castleford, Glasshoughton, Pontefract Baghill, Pontefract Monkhill, Pontefract Tanshelf
$ Wakefield Kirkgate and Wakefield Westgate
+ Deighton, Huddersfield and Mirfield

As they have no routeing points in common, we need to undertake a fares check to determine the appropriate routeing point(s) for Sandal & Agbrigg. This entails comparing the September 1996 Single fare (which are on the ATOC site linked above) for the full journey with that from each routeing point to the destination. Any that are the same fare, or lower, than the through journey are deemed appropriate.

Performing the fares check gives us the following:

• An Anytime Day Single (SDS) from Sandal & Agbrigg to Huddersfield was £2.30
• The SDS from Doncaster to Huddersfield was £6.00
• The SDS from Pontefract Stations to Huddersfield was £2.30
• The SDS from Swinton (S. Yorks) to Huddersfield was £6.00
• The SDS from Wakefield Stations to Huddersfield was £2.00 for route DIRECT and £2.30 for route VIA LEEDS

Thus the appropriate routeing points for Sandal & Agbrigg for this journey are Pontefract Group and Wakefield Group. As an aside, it also essentially confirms that the fare for the through journey is set on the assumption that you'll go via Leeds.

The set of permitted routes is determined by taking the shortest route to the origin routeing point, then the permitted routes from there to the destination routeing point. The latter are listed in Section C of the Routeing Guide (aka the "Yellow Pages"):

• Routes from Pontefract Group to Huddersfield Group are shown on Maps WY and YK+SL
• Those from Wakefield Group to Huddersfield Group are shown on Maps DH and HL+YN

To use Pontefract as the origin routeing point, you'd have to go from Sandal & Agbrigg to Moorthorpe and thence to Pontefract Baghill, as you can't reach any of the other members of Pontefract Group without going through Wakefield. Doing so would take the best part of three hours, however, so let's turn our attention to Wakefield:

• Map DH allows Wakefield to Huddersfield direct
• HL+YN allows Wakefield to Leeds to Huddersfield

So as you can see, a ticket from Sandal & Agbrigg to Huddersfield IS valid via Leeds as you thought.

As for why you use September 1996 fares when undertaking the fares check, that's the last fares round that British Rail was in charge of. Since then the privatised TOCs have raised fares by different amounts, so what may be shown as valid using the September 1996 fares may not be valid if you use current fares.

alistairlees said:

The RPIs at Leeds should not be making such comments, and casting doubts in passengers' minds.

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Thank-you, and I quite agree.

alistairlees said:

You should write to LNER / Northern (I'm assuming the RPIs worked for one of them) to raise this matter; a simple email will do.

Click to expand...

I will do so.

Thanks again

CyrusWuff said:

Sandal & Agbrigg to Huddersfield IS valid via Leeds as you thought.

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Thank-you very much - it really helped showing the step-by-step reasons as to why.

CyrusWuff said:

As for why you use September 1996 fares when undertaking the fares check, that's the last fares round that British Rail was in charge of. Since then the privatised TOCs have raised fares by different amounts, so what may be shown as valid using the September 1996 fares may not be valid if you use current fares.

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That is also really interesting. I never knew that's why it was used - I’ve seen it in one or two places before



Thank-you for all your time,
Paddy.

alistairlees said:

You should write to LNER / Northern (I'm assuming the RPIs worked for one of them) to raise this matter; a simple email will do.

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It is highly unlikely that the RPIs would be LNER staff unless there was a major joint revenue operation taking place, and in that case they could have been from any of the other TOCs serving Leeds station. Northern are the lead operator for the station so it was much more likely to have been their staff.

If that's all the travel you'll do, that's fine, but don't forget that for only a little more you can get an MCard https://www.m-card.co.uk/the-cards/under19/ with the ability to travel throughout the county (with no need to check routings).

Deerfold said:

If that's all the travel you'll do, that's fine, but don't forget that for only a little more you can get an MCard https://www.m-card.co.uk/the-cards/under19/ with the ability to travel throughout the county (with no need to check routings).

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I get the bus to Sandal, but from just outside West Yorkshire, on the boundary, technically, so I can’t actually apply for an under-19 pass, and even if I could, I don't know if the bus I get (the Stagecoach 59 from Barnsley to Wakefield) will allow my ticket to be scanned, and the next bus stop, that is in West Yorkshire, is down a country lane which I don't fancy walking down at half-past-six every morning.

There is a rail map on the WYMetro site, and I know this is a Rail forum, but if you know the boundaries on other modes of transport, please do let me know.


Thanks,
Paddy.

pcm_ said:

There is a rail map on the WYMetro site, ... but if you know the boundaries on other modes of transport, please do let me know.

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You need The West Yorkshire Guide to Cross Boundary Bus & Train Services.

On the road down into Royston, the last stop in West Yorkshire seems to be Bleakley Lane / Bleakley Terrace.

clagmonster said:

On the road down into Royston, the last stop in West Yorkshire seems to be Bleakley Lane / Bleakley Terrace.

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Agreed. The Guide describes the boundary on bus service 59 as "Notton - Bleakley Terrace".

Thank-you very much. I'll check the names of the stops when I'm next out, and see if I can apply in person, if it'd work out.