Enforcement of the new rules on social distancing, unnecessary journeys etc.

PeterC · 29 Mar 2020

AM9 said:
So the latest announcement is that the current Quarantine might be maintained until September or beyond:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-52084517

That means that much of the restrictions on unnecessary journeys and driving to tourist hotspots under the premise of 'taking exercise' will need greater enforcement as the weather improves through spring and into summer. One practical way to reduce or even prevent those selfish drivers parking in national parks such as the lake district or peak district would be to close all car parks at those popular locations.

Actually it quite explicitly said that restrictions wouldn't necessarily continue at the current level but could be gradually eased when the situation allowed.

How you ease restrictions without the public behaving as if the brakes are off is another matter of course.

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bussnapperwm · 29 Mar 2020

Cowley said:
One of the charges was for ‘Coughing without due care and attention’...

You've got to feel sorry for coppers though. Now Greggs has shut, they can't even get their coffee and doughnuts.

cuccir · 29 Mar 2020

One thing that this is revealing is that people's definintions of 'essential' and 'local' are very different, as are people's expectations of what exercise looks like.

Ianno87 · 29 Mar 2020

farleigh said:
Heard the police are now dyeing lakes black to stop people visiting. What could possibly go wrong?

Islineclear3_1 said:
I wonder what they are using...

More worryingly is the effect on freshwater plants and organic matter including fish, water birds and wildlife who drink from these lakes

AndrewE said:
It's a vertical sided pit, full of caustic water (lime processing waste) so I doubt there is much, if any, life in, it.

tsr said:
Sounds like the sort of delightful place which has no grounds to have the public anywhere near it. The police are probably doing no worse than manufacturers who make shower gel and cleaning products taste deliberately nasty to avoid kids drinking them.

Apparently, the lake concerned (near Buxton) is regularly dyed to deter swimming. Not a new thing.

Domh245 · 29 Mar 2020

It's curious that most of these stories seem to be coming out of Derbyshire, make of that what you will!

Bletchleyite · 29 Mar 2020

yorkie said:
Maybe in some cases, but I'd hope and presume that leniency would be shown where it is subjective.

I saw @Bletchleyite propose this (it was just an idea) and then a couple of people seemed to repeat it as if it was a rule (this does demonstrate the potential dangers of people posting ideas for restrictions in a thread about actual restrictions; some people pick up parts of post and think it's real!)

I have ensured that all my walks have been greater than an hour; my longest was closer to four hours!

There was some talk about this on the BBC this afternoon that the basis of this was to reduce the numbers of people on potentially busy streets, and that some Police forces in England have said that they don't believe that the number of pieces of exercise nor anything about length is legally enforceable. Wales is different as the advice has all been specifically codified into law.

Bletchleyite · 29 Mar 2020

PeterC said:
Actually it quite explicitly said that restrictions wouldn't necessarily continue at the current level but could be gradually eased when the situation allowed.

How you ease restrictions without the public behaving as if the brakes are off is another matter of course.

Indeed. If they throw open the pubs, for instance, there's going to be the biggest night of drinking in 50 years and a huge amount of spread. It might be possible, though, to allow sit down restaurants to open provided they keep all the tables 2m apart, for example.

AM9 · 29 Mar 2020

PeterC said:
Actually it quite explicitly said that restrictions wouldn't necessarily continue at the current level but could be gradually eased when the situation allowed.

How you ease restrictions without the public behaving as if the brakes are off is another matter of course.

I especially didn't say that the restrictions would be maintained at the current level, but the quarantine (that started before the latest restrictions were announced and passed into law) might. The issue of 'days out' at visitor attractions are unlikely to be suddenly allowed in view of the potential for increasing the infection rate way above current levels. There's no point in raising the level above that of the capacity of the health system.

kermit · 29 Mar 2020

Can anyone help me with an explanation of the rationale for stopping people driving around, on their own, in their cars? Surely the infection risk in this activity is minimal? All I can think of is more journeys = more fuel fill-ups, with some risk there, and a generally very small risk (compared to the days when I drove an Austin Allegro) of breaking down. So why?

Bletchleyite · 29 Mar 2020

kermit said:
Can anyone help me with an explanation of the rationale for stopping people driving around, on their own, in their cars? Surely the infection risk in this activity is minimal? All I can think of is more journeys = more fuel fill-ups, with some risk there, and a generally very small risk (compared to the days when I drove an Austin Allegro) of breaking down. So why?

Risk of car accidents, and the need for contact in the event of an accident or breakdown.

kermit · 29 Mar 2020

Bletchleyite said:
Risk of car accidents, and the need for contact in the event of an accident or breakdown.

Thanks, but I think I covered that - risks of accident or breakdown are vanishingly small. Whereas off licenses are designated as essential suppliers. The comparative risks of driving about on your own, or going in to an off licence to make a face to face purchase do not seem, to me, to justify the driving ban.

Dr Hoo · 29 Mar 2020

kermit said:
Can anyone help me with an explanation of the rationale for stopping people driving around, on their own, in their cars? Surely the infection risk in this activity is minimal? All I can think of is more journeys = more fuel fill-ups, with some risk there, and a generally very small risk (compared to the days when I drove an Austin Allegro) of breaking down. So why?

(Sorry for yet another comment from Derbyshire.)
It seems to have been much quieter this weekend; helped by arctic temperatures and snow in the air. Last weekend was totally manic. Loads of dangerously-parked vehicles, even on 'clearways', people walking in the roads as no pavements, no room for cyclists to pass, only local garage completely emptied of diesel (needed by essential workers), local shop completely stripped of food as all pubs, cafes, etc. closed so residents left with nothing to buy.
And that's before most of the car occupants (many from the local virus hotspot of Sheffield) decided to get out for some 'exercise' standing shoulder to shoulder in the queues for the 'camp follower' ice cream vans that were cashing in.
Does that answer your question?

kermit · 29 Mar 2020

Dr Hoo said:
(Sorry for yet another comment from Derbyshire.)
It seems to have been much quieter this weekend; helped by arctic temperatures and snow in the air. Last weekend was totally manic. Loads of dangerously-parked vehicles, even on 'clearways', people walking in the roads as no pavements, no room for cyclists to pass, only local garage completely emptied of diesel (needed by essential workers), local shop completely stripped of food as all pubs, cafes, etc. closed so residents left with nothing to buy.
And that's before most of the car occupants (many from the local virus hotspot of Sheffield) decided to get out for some 'exercise' standing shoulder to shoulder in the queues for the 'camp follower' ice cream vans that were cashing in.
Does that answer your question?

Thanks, I understand your points, but respectfully, no, that doesn't answer my question. The problematic behaviour that you cite involves people driving to places that they should know will be crowded already, or setting off without enough fuel for their journey, or stopping and getting out (worst of all). Going on a round trip, staying in your car, with plenty of fuel, to a place that you can reasonably anticipate to be quiet, doesn't, in my view, compare.

ashworth · 29 Mar 2020

I completely understand why the current restrictions are in place and why they should apply to everyone. This is a national emergency of a type that we have not experienced before within living memory. However, it does make it very difficult for some people in certain circumstances.

My mother is 85 and has dementia. I know it will get far worse as time progresses, but currently the only aspect that it is affecting her in a big way is her loss of short term memory. She is still fully aware of who people are and their names, she knows where she is both inside the house and outside, and can still hold a very sensible conversation to the point that some people would not know that there is very much wrong. However, if she was asked what she had to eat 5 minutes ago she would have no idea and she also after a few minutes has completely forgotten what she has seen and heard in the news and would have no idea what she did or where she went yesterday.

She requires stimulation to keep her brain active. Before things got really bad, in the 2 weeks leading up to the current lockdown, at least I was able to take her out for a ride in the car and whilst maintaining social distancing take a short walk out in the country. She didn’t really understand why we couldn’t go into a pub or tearoom for something to eat or why we couldn’t visit a garden centre, but she was enjoying getting out of the house and seeing the spring flowers and countryside. Fortunately we do have a garden which she can spend some time in but apart from that she is confined to the house.

The biggest problem resulting from the loss of short term memory is that she can’t remember anything about the coronavirus or the current restrictions. Every morning when she sees the newspaper it is a complete shock to her and she doesn’t understand why nobody has told her about this. This is repeated every time she sees or hears the news on the radio and tv. Dozens of times each day I am having to explain to her why the schools are closed, the church across the road is closed, why we can’t go out in the car or for a meal etc etc etc. The biggest problem of all is why she can’t go on her weekly trip to see my sister who lives about 50 miles away and she can’t come here. It’s like continuous Groundhog Day!

We live in a rural area and for her being taken out a few times a week in the car around the country lanes and villages would really help. I’m not allowing anyone else in my car at this time.
After just one week of being in the house with her and this continuous questioning about why everything is happening I’m not sure what my state of mind will be if this goes on right through the summer. Over the past couple of years I’ve had a week off each month and gone away on holiday whilst my sister has looked after my mum. She doesn’t need constant care at this stage and I am usually able to go out for hours and she’s quite happy and safe being left to potter around the house and garden. However, I am now stuck in the house with the constant questioning about things which she forgets within five minutes of me trying to explain.

I am not going to go against the current restrictions but this does seem a case where a drive out in the country or even a trip over to see her own daughter where we could sit for an hour well over 2 metres apart in the garden would be best for her and long term for my health and sanity. How, as time goes on, can I explain to her that she is not able to see her own daughter for perhaps months when she forgets within minutes the reason.

yorkie · 29 Mar 2020

@ashworth so sorry to hear this; sadly I do understand what you are going through, and this is one of the reasons that I feel strongly that there needs to be a sensible limit for how long this goes on for and that the needs of factors such as mental wellbeing and peoples livelihoods cannot be sacrificed and there does need to be a balance when decisions are made.

ashworth · 30 Mar 2020

Thank you @yorkie for your kind response.
I fully understand and completely agree with the policy of socially distancing, closing all venues where people meet etc. I even accept the fact that I may have a very difficult few months coping with my mum without any help. I even understand why she cannot have any close contact with her own daughter, however cruel and hard that may seem. I understand, especially after the crowds of people treated last weekend as a bank holiday visiting the seaside and parks, why the government has taken the steps it has.
Sadly the fact that some people have ignored the advice, means that we are now in the situation where to do a sensible and beneficial thing like take a person with dementia out for a car ride in the country is not allowed. Also some people are now suggesting that I can’t even go out for a long walk for a few hours to have a break from the situation.

ashkeba · 30 Mar 2020

C J Snarzell said:
It's like the classroom mentality at school - one unruley pupil effectively behaves badly enough that the rest of the class suffer the consequences!!!

That was rubbish teaching. What was the lesson? Misbehave as badly as you can as quickly as you can but don't get identified and then you will have less punishment while the innocent get punished too?

It would be rubbish government, too.

ashkeba · 30 Mar 2020

kermit said:
Can anyone help me with an explanation of the rationale for stopping people driving around, on their own, in their cars? Surely the infection risk in this activity is minimal? All I can think of is more journeys = more fuel fill-ups, with some risk there, and a generally very small risk (compared to the days when I drove an Austin Allegro) of breaking down. So why?

Where do you think the air you breathe out while driving goes?

Yes, this and the fill ups and pee stops are all small risks but they seem like almost entirely avoidable ones.

It may be good to put enforcement roadblocks at service station exits, to catch the longest journeys first. I've seen no roadblocks here yet, only on TV news from other countries. The UK seems to be being very wishy washy again and will be criticised by other politicians and ridiculed by foreign comedians after this is all over.

ashkeba · 30 Mar 2020

parkender102 said:
My daughter currently lives in Brixton in a flatshare [...] - if stopped by the Police will they allow me to complete my journey or will this be deemed non essential.

I can't find it now but I think I read off a driver being stopped, fined and escorted home for attempting exactly this in the middle of the night. I thought it was Yorkshire but it's not on their police twitter's.

The main way that I could see it as essential is of one of you is needed to care for the other at this time, but that seems unlikely else it would have been obvious to you.

Ianno87 · 30 Mar 2020

Intrigued by what people think of a Tweet put out by Warrington Police: https://twitter.com/PoliceWarr/status/1244163251799195649

Overnight 6 people have been summonsed for offences relating to the new corona virus legislation to protect the public: These included;

Out for a drive due to boredom

Returning from parties

Multiple people from the same household going to the shops for non-essential items

C J Snarzell · 30 Mar 2020

I take part in another forum group on social media & the topic of mental health V Covid19 cropped up.

The fallout of Covid19 is the mental health side of things. I'm already aware that some people in our communities are left without their lifelines because of the lockdown. For example, I have a distance family member struggling with alcohol because she has been denied her access to AA meetings. Luckily, thanks to Skype she has stayed sober so far but it is still early days to say she will make it through the epidemic.

Other people I know live alone & just don't have any family and love ones, but they socialise by going out to community centres or spend the odd hour in the pub having a chat over a pint. Near where I live is a farm run by a mental health charity which supports people through a three month programme if they are struggling with drug & alcohol abuse and this too has been closed down until further notice.

Very sad situation for many many people who need to go out to overcome their demons. The simple fact is that this country will see suicides during the epidemic or other fatalities (non Covid19) brought on by isolation where people have fallen back in with drink & drugs again.

CJ

kermit · 30 Mar 2020

ashworth said:
I completely understand why the current restrictions are in place and why they should apply to everyone. This is a national emergency of a type that we have not experienced before within living memory. However, it does make it very difficult for some people in certain circumstances.

My mother is 85 and has dementia. I know it will get far worse as time progresses, but currently the only aspect that it is affecting her in a big way is her loss of short term memory. She is still fully aware of who people are and their names, she knows where she is both inside the house and outside, and can still hold a very sensible conversation to the point that some people would not know that there is very much wrong. However, if she was asked what she had to eat 5 minutes ago she would have no idea and she also after a few minutes has completely forgotten what she has seen and heard in the news and would have no idea what she did or where she went yesterday.

She requires stimulation to keep her brain active. Before things got really bad, in the 2 weeks leading up to the current lockdown, at least I was able to take her out for a ride in the car and whilst maintaining social distancing take a short walk out in the country. She didn’t really understand why we couldn’t go into a pub or tearoom for something to eat or why we couldn’t visit a garden centre, but she was enjoying getting out of the house and seeing the spring flowers and countryside. Fortunately we do have a garden which she can spend some time in but apart from that she is confined to the house.

The biggest problem resulting from the loss of short term memory is that she can’t remember anything about the coronavirus or the current restrictions. Every morning when she sees the newspaper it is a complete shock to her and she doesn’t understand why nobody has told her about this. This is repeated every time she sees or hears the news on the radio and tv. Dozens of times each day I am having to explain to her why the schools are closed, the church across the road is closed, why we can’t go out in the car or for a meal etc etc etc. The biggest problem of all is why she can’t go on her weekly trip to see my sister who lives about 50 miles away and she can’t come here. It’s like continuous Groundhog Day!

We live in a rural area and for her being taken out a few times a week in the car around the country lanes and villages would really help. I’m not allowing anyone else in my car at this time.
After just one week of being in the house with her and this continuous questioning about why everything is happening I’m not sure what my state of mind will be if this goes on right through the summer. Over the past couple of years I’ve had a week off each month and gone away on holiday whilst my sister has looked after my mum. She doesn’t need constant care at this stage and I am usually able to go out for hours and she’s quite happy and safe being left to potter around the house and garden. However, I am now stuck in the house with the constant questioning about things which she forgets within five minutes of me trying to explain.

I am not going to go against the current restrictions but this does seem a case where a drive out in the country or even a trip over to see her own daughter where we could sit for an hour well over 2 metres apart in the garden would be best for her and long term for my health and sanity. How, as time goes on, can I explain to her that she is not able to see her own daughter for perhaps months when she forgets within minutes the reason.

I am very sorry to hear of your circumstances. If I understand correctly, your local authority should now be gearing up to help support the most vulnerable, and that means supporting the carers too. If "breaking point" appears imminent, I wonder whether speaking to someone at the support hub about the possibility that they could discuss your needs with the Police (who have a legal obligation to engage in partnership work with local authorities in adult protection) could provide some discretionary exemption. The Police do have wide discretion at this point about enforcement of these new regulations, and evidence that you have sought permission in advance could be the key to a sensible, pragmatic and humane response. I wish you the very best of good fortune.

ValleyLines142 · 30 Mar 2020

yorkie said:
It specifically says that we would not be in lockdown for 6 months but that some measures may be required for 6 months.

There is no way the current measures could be enforced for 6 months; it would be a case of "throwing the baby out with the bathwater" ; the current measures are causing misery and stress for many people who are going to be in a far worse position to fight the virus than if they had been fit, healthy and happy.

There has to be a limit and the younger generation and the fit & healthy cannot be completely sacrificed; there has to be a compromise that takes mental health concerns into account.

My understanding is that it would be shopping for "luxury" items that would be prohibited.

@yorkie Agreed. I don't feel there is a balance at the moment. It's very hard.

kermit · 30 Mar 2020

Ianno87 said:
Intrigued by what people think of a Tweet put out by Warrington Police: https://twitter.com/PoliceWarr/status/1244163251799195649

My view is that 2) and 3) are entirely justified, but point 1) should have been responded to at this stage with a polite discussion and, at most, a warning. Hmmm.

Bantamzen · 30 Mar 2020

AndrewE said:
It's a vertical sided pit, full of caustic water (lime processing waste) so I doubt there is much, if any, life in, it.

So a bit like Elland Road then....

(For the non-football fans that's the home of Leeds Utd)

ashworth said:
I completely understand why the current restrictions are in place and why they should apply to everyone. This is a national emergency of a type that we have not experienced before within living memory. However, it does make it very difficult for some people in certain circumstances.

My mother is 85 and has dementia. I know it will get far worse as time progresses, but currently the only aspect that it is affecting her in a big way is her loss of short term memory. She is still fully aware of who people are and their names, she knows where she is both inside the house and outside, and can still hold a very sensible conversation to the point that some people would not know that there is very much wrong. However, if she was asked what she had to eat 5 minutes ago she would have no idea and she also after a few minutes has completely forgotten what she has seen and heard in the news and would have no idea what she did or where she went yesterday.

She requires stimulation to keep her brain active. Before things got really bad, in the 2 weeks leading up to the current lockdown, at least I was able to take her out for a ride in the car and whilst maintaining social distancing take a short walk out in the country. She didn’t really understand why we couldn’t go into a pub or tearoom for something to eat or why we couldn’t visit a garden centre, but she was enjoying getting out of the house and seeing the spring flowers and countryside. Fortunately we do have a garden which she can spend some time in but apart from that she is confined to the house.

The biggest problem resulting from the loss of short term memory is that she can’t remember anything about the coronavirus or the current restrictions. Every morning when she sees the newspaper it is a complete shock to her and she doesn’t understand why nobody has told her about this. This is repeated every time she sees or hears the news on the radio and tv. Dozens of times each day I am having to explain to her why the schools are closed, the church across the road is closed, why we can’t go out in the car or for a meal etc etc etc. The biggest problem of all is why she can’t go on her weekly trip to see my sister who lives about 50 miles away and she can’t come here. It’s like continuous Groundhog Day!

We live in a rural area and for her being taken out a few times a week in the car around the country lanes and villages would really help. I’m not allowing anyone else in my car at this time.
After just one week of being in the house with her and this continuous questioning about why everything is happening I’m not sure what my state of mind will be if this goes on right through the summer. Over the past couple of years I’ve had a week off each month and gone away on holiday whilst my sister has looked after my mum. She doesn’t need constant care at this stage and I am usually able to go out for hours and she’s quite happy and safe being left to potter around the house and garden. However, I am now stuck in the house with the constant questioning about things which she forgets within five minutes of me trying to explain.

I am not going to go against the current restrictions but this does seem a case where a drive out in the country or even a trip over to see her own daughter where we could sit for an hour well over 2 metres apart in the garden would be best for her and long term for my health and sanity. How, as time goes on, can I explain to her that she is not able to see her own daughter for perhaps months when she forgets within minutes the reason.

I too offer my thoughts to you and your family. My Mother-In-Law passed away just three years ago with dementia. She had managed to keep it reasonably in check when she lived in her own home, spending much of her day in the garden or out with a local walking club. But when she bought an apartment in a sheltered housing block, the loss of those routines of gardening and walking were the triggers that accelerated the dementia and within 18 months she simply gave up, even though as a family we tried continually to keep her engaged. It was a heart-breaking, horrible thing to see. Quiet honestly I'm not sure I could ever put up with that realisation if I ever got diagnosed with it.

So whilst I understand the reasons for the measures, even if somewhat driven by poor government decisions along the way & over the years, at the same time we cannot have this lock-down status for too long. The effects on hundreds of thousands, perhaps millions will be devastating and risks scarring our future wellbeing.

jumble · 30 Mar 2020

Typhoon said:
Absolutely. I've been on several walks in the last few years that are part of the signposted Walk London walks and, in the outer suburbs, you can easily travel for half an hour without passing anyone. If you know the area, you can usually find somewhere to walk where you can easily socially isolate, just avoid the touristy areas. Just needs common sense and selflessness.

On the other hand Our Cocker Spaniel and I have been doing 10 mile sections of the London Loop ( 150 odd miles) for the past 18 months (all the way Clockwise and now half way back anticlockwise ) at weekends
We both love doing this
As you say some of it is very isolated and it is easy to get off track as many signs are now missing
I have decided that the responsible thing is to stop doing this because I do not want to fall or become ill and rely on Emergency Services having to come to the middle of nowhere
( I could get a lift to the start and finish of each section)
I am keeping local

nlogax · 30 Mar 2020

Am glad to see that it's a gradual easing over six months. The country will struggle with a continuation of the lockdown in its current form (and maybe even stricter enforcement) for half the year. Sad to read some of the examples above which are making things so very difficult for many people. Am personally finding it 'tricky' already.. my partner is north of the border and I'm down here in London, so we're just taking it week by week at the moment and catching up with each online as much as possible. I had it in my mind to drive up last week and spend the rest of the lockdown in Scotland but ultimately it was a 450 mile non-essential journey so I opted not to. I also didn't fancy getting two thirds of the way there only to be fined / turned back home.. naturally I'm spending a lot more time on here at weekends than I otherwise would!

C J Snarzell · 30 Mar 2020

The problem at the moment is people scaremongering over what's being said in the news.

The news that we could be on lockdown for six months is just wild speculation at the moment & the government have not said this. What they have said that certain measures will have to remain in place for up to six months. Even the deputy chief medical officer (the lady with the dark hair & glasses - don't know her name) stated on last night's news that there may be a chance that certain measures 'might' be relaxed in the coming weeks/months depending on how the Covid19 virus takes it's course. What she did say was that if we become complacent if the number of daily deaths & diagnoses starts to decrease then the danger is we will see another spike in the virus again. It makes perfect sense that some measures will have to remain. For example, I cannot see sporting events, concerts or large gatherings of people being allowed until maybe 2021. We may however, be allowed to return to certain aspects of our lives well before then (such as jobs!) but none of us know at the moment and I think we should just try to take each day as it comes.

CJ

island · 30 Mar 2020

kermit said:
I am very sorry to hear of your circumstances. If I understand correctly, your local authority should now be gearing up to help support the most vulnerable, and that means supporting the carers too. If "breaking point" appears imminent, I wonder whether speaking to someone at the support hub about the possibility that they could discuss your needs with the Police (who have a legal obligation to engage in partnership work with local authorities in adult protection) could provide some discretionary exemption. The Police do have wide discretion at this point about enforcement of these new regulations, and evidence that you have sought permission in advance could be the key to a sensible, pragmatic and humane response. I wish you the very best of good fortune.

The legislation (regulation 6 of SI 2020/350) says you must not leave your home without a reasonable excuse. It then has a list saying reasonable excuses include... which makes it clear that they are not the only ones and that other reasonable excuses exist.

I would hope that a police officer would exercise common sense to realise that taking a lady with dementia for a drive, in a closed loop, without getting out of the car, to relieve boredom is a reasonable excuse to leave the house.

Visiting a relative would be a harder sell, but perhaps they can be introduced to a video calling solution?

scotrail158713 · 30 Mar 2020

C J Snarzell said:
What they have said that certain measures will have to remain in place for up to six months.

And that might just be e.g no football (or any one of the other minor measures introduced). I reckon it’s quite unlikely full lockdown will be in place for 6 months.

Enforcement of the new rules on social distancing, unnecessary journeys etc.

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