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Timetabling and regulation policy of EMR and Thameslink services in the current timetable

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Eloise

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You are right, there isn't space to put a St Albans City call in EMR, you would need at least four minute gap (2 min dwell plus braking allowance plus acceleration) compared to running through non-stop, which just isn't there in the peaks. Well you can create it by removing something else so swings and roundabouts. And you'd probably get more stations overtime as people try and squeeze onto already busy services. Don't forget Thameslink has the advantage of running through the Core which many people take advantage of. Myself included at one point for many years having had the choice of EMT or Thameslink from my local station I would nearly always opt for Thameslink as it made the end to end commute easier.

Stopping a 222 at St Albans City will also probably eat up more capacity, acceleration is slower than a 700. 360s should be quicker but I still don't think there's a gap. I always remember what someone told me once about 91s, HST, and 442s. Very good at covering distance at line speed, just don't put many stops in them, keep em moving!
 
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leytongabriel

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But it isn’t a 1 minute delay to a TL service. It’s 5+. There are plenty of examples of a 5+ minute late service through the core causing well over 500 minutes of delay across the whole of the network by the time it’s resolved, having delayed upwards of 100,000 people.

Meanwhile a 5 minute delay to an EMR service into St P is usually the end of it.

Clearly TL passengers are paying less for their journey, as they are not travelling as far. But not on a per mile basis - The cheapest St Albans to central London season ticket is £3712, for less than 20 miles.

There’s also a lot more people of board the TL trains. In normal circumstances, on average more people board each ‘fast’ service just at St Albans than are on each EMR service arriving into St P. Typically the fast TL services arrive at St P with 1500+ people on board, and are carrying much more revenue. And there’s twice as many of the trains.





They didn’t always stop at St Albans. It was one every other hour IIRC, @ChiefPlanner will confirm. It would be not a good idea to stop peak services at St Albans... dwell times would be enormous, pm services would fill up with St Albans passengers taking seats of those travelling long distance, journey times would go up, and finally I’m pretty sure it couldn’t be timetabled. Other than that...
I'm sure I remember an hourly train that stopped at SAC, Luton, Bedford etc and then went alternately to Derby or Nottingham in the 70s
 

edwin_m

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correct.
it was usually a cl45 or cl47 hauled set.
But at the time the suburban service out to Bedford would have been far less than it is now, hence the need for a longer-distance train to act as a semi-fast commuter service as well.
 

hooverboy

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But at the time the suburban service out to Bedford would have been far less than it is now, hence the need for a longer-distance train to act as a semi-fast commuter service as well.
it was still a pretty regular suburban service if i remember correctly, albeit not as full as it is now.

I think it used to be(class 127)
1tph all stations st pancras-luton
1tph all stations london st pancras-bedford
2tph st pancras,west hampstead,and then all stations st albans to bedford

the schedule didn't really ramp up until the 317's/HST's arrived..even then the line was mostly restricted to 100mph in those days
 

edwin_m

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it was still a pretty regular suburban service if i remember correctly, albeit not as full as it is now.

I think it used to be(class 127)
1tph all stations st pancras-luton
1tph all stations london st pancras-bedford
2tph st pancras,west hampstead,and then all stations st albans to bedford

the schedule didn't really ramp up until the 317's/HST's arrived..even then the line was mostly restricted to 100mph in those days
But today's service is at least twice that. Hence there is no need to use trains for Leicester and beyond as suburban semi-fasts.
 

Bald Rick

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it was still a pretty regular suburban service if i remember correctly, albeit not as full as it is now.

I think it used to be(class 127)
1tph all stations st pancras-luton
1tph all stations london st pancras-bedford
2tph st pancras,west hampstead,and then all stations st albans to bedford

the schedule didn't really ramp up until the 317's/HST's arrived..even then the line was mostly restricted to 100mph in those days

All of which could be accommodated on the slow lines. Hence fast line calls for longer distance services wasn’t an issue (and there were only 2tph of them, sometimes only 3 trains per 2 hours).
 

RT4038

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it was still a pretty regular suburban service if i remember correctly, albeit not as full as it is now.

I think it used to be(class 127)
1tph all stations st pancras-luton
1tph all stations london st pancras-bedford
2tph st pancras,west hampstead,and then all stations st albans to bedford

the schedule didn't really ramp up until the 317's/HST's arrived..even then the line was mostly restricted to 100mph in those days

Definitely not!
(class 127)
1tph St Pancras fast to Elstree then all stations to Bedford
1tph St Pancras all stations to Luton
Additional trains in the peaks, roughly doubling the service but with a varying pattern, plus 3 trains Moorgate all stations to Luton. The intermediate stations Kentish Town-Hendon only got 1tph plus the Moorgate trains. Some peak trains only ran from St Albans.
(The Moorgate trains were not class 127, but another type of shorter carriage unit)

On Sundays the service was 1 tph all stations St Pancras to Bedford
 

Triumph

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it was still a pretty regular suburban service if i remember correctly, albeit not as full as it is now.

I think it used to be(class 127)
1tph all stations st pancras-luton
1tph all stations london st pancras-bedford
2tph st pancras,west hampstead,and then all stations st albans to bedford

the schedule didn't really ramp up until the 317's/HST's arrived..even then the line was mostly restricted to 100mph in those days
Class 127 is correct, however only 1tph all stns to Luton and 1tph fast Elstree then all to BDM was the off peak service.
West Hampstead only had 1tph daily except in the peak hours.
The timetable was one train leaving St Pancras at every hour at 05 for all stations to Luton, and one at 35 min past every hour for Elstree and all stations onwards to Bedford. With the eight intermediate stops the time to Bedford was no more than 69 mins for the 49.8 miles. In the opposite direction, the semi-fasts from Bedford and the stopping trains from Luton all left on the hour, resulting in a half-hourly service to and from Leagrave, Harlington and Flitwick.
The class 127's between St Pancras Bedford were the most intensified DMU service in Europe. 30 units for 26 daily diagrams. And there only ever worked this route.
 

RT4038

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Class 127 is correct, however only 1tph all stns to Luton and 1tph fast Elstree then all to BDM was the off peak service.
West Hampstead only had 1tph daily except in the peak hours.
The timetable was one train leaving St Pancras at every hour at 05 for all stations to Luton, and one at 35 min past every hour for Elstree and all stations onwards to Bedford. With the eight intermediate stops the time to Bedford was no more than 69 mins for the 49.8 miles. In the opposite direction, the semi-fasts from Bedford and the stopping trains from Luton all left on the hour, resulting in a half-hourly service to and from Leagrave, Harlington and Flitwick.
The class 127's between St Pancras Bedford were the most intensified DMU service in Europe. 30 units for 26 daily diagrams. And there only ever worked this route.

The Class 127 had a Mon-Fri working from Kettering (I think depart 0615), plus when first delivered they were briefly used on stopping trains to Leicester until all the minor intermediate stations were closed. Cl. 127 trailer cars were also inserted into Birmingham Cross-City units after BedPan electrification.
 

Triumph

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The Class 127 had a Mon-Fri working from Kettering (I think depart 0615), plus when first delivered they were briefly used on stopping trains to Leicester until all the minor intermediate stations were closed. Cl. 127 trailer cars were also inserted into Birmingham Cross-City units after BedPan electrification.
It was 0545 from Kettering, it was an 8 car that ran ECS from Bedford to Kettering and it was all stations arriving at about 0720.
 

ChiefPlanner

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Definitely not!
(class 127)
1tph St Pancras fast to Elstree then all stations to Bedford
1tph St Pancras all stations to Luton
Additional trains in the peaks, roughly doubling the service but with a varying pattern, plus 3 trains Moorgate all stations to Luton. The intermediate stations Kentish Town-Hendon only got 1tph plus the Moorgate trains. Some peak trains only ran from St Albans.
(The Moorgate trains were not class 127, but another type of shorter carriage unit)

On Sundays the service was 1 tph all stations St Pancras to Bedford

Supports roughly what I said before - pre-resignalling and electrification there were a few peak services that terminated / started at Harpenden , - the new centre turnback at SAC catered for these services. Reversing north to south at SAC on the slow lines entailed "blocking back" , which would have eaten into through line capacity. A feature we can of course replicate in the restored SAC South Box.
 

leytongabriel

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We also saw 127s at times on Kentish Town - Barking trains. With their highback seating they seemed very classy compared with our normal DMUs.
 
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