Duty Cards

Pat1105 · 31 Mar 2020

Maltabus said:
Running boards at Stagecoach Oxfordshire certainly stay with the vehicles!

Some Stagecoach companies have different styles. I know that Stagecoach North Scotland have cards that stay with the driver and Stagecoach Manchester have cards that stay on the bus.

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Maltabus · 31 Mar 2020

Thats not what you said in your original post!

carlberry · 31 Mar 2020

Pat1105 said:
It’s quite ironic that the Travel Express example attached instructs drivers not to leave the stand early as they were at a Public Inquiry not too long back, with one of the reasons being failure to comply with the timetable as some journeys were running early in order to get in front of NX

So the running card provides evidence that the company instructed the drivers not to do it, therefore they must be completely blameless.

Pat1105 · 31 Mar 2020

carlberry said:
So the running card provides evidence that the company instructed the drivers not to do it, therefore they must be completely blameless.

The running card provides evidence they were instructed not to run ahead of the timetable, but does not provide evidence to say they actually did run early. This is taken from the PI: The same timetabling incompetence which had caused TC Jones to ban Mr Chumber in 2016 from any involvement in timetabling had re-emerged since that ban was lifted in January 2019. There was some evidence that vehicles had been deliberately run a few minutes ahead of rivals, regardless of the timetable

Megafuss · 31 Mar 2020

carlberry said:
So the running card provides evidence that the company instructed the drivers not to do it, therefore they must be completely blameless.

Ultimately it's the bus companies fault either way. They either tolerate early running or don't check for it.

Dai Corner · 31 Mar 2020

Megafuss said:
Ultimately it's the bus companies fault either way. They either tolerate early running or don't check for it.

Presumably checking is much easier these days with many buses being GPS tracked?

Pat1105 · 31 Mar 2020

Dai Corner said:
Presumably checking is much easier these days with many buses being GPS tracked?

Travel Express have only recently had ticketer machines with gps tracking. Before, they didn’t have any tracking equipment that i’m aware of.

bussnapperwm · 31 Mar 2020

Pat1105 said:
Travel Express have only recently had ticketer machines with gps tracking. Before, they didn’t have any tracking equipment that i’m aware of.

And that was only as part of a smaller operators scheme in the TFWM region

Andyh82 · 31 Mar 2020

Here is one from Huddersfield that I was sent back in 2013, although I think the design is the same today

TheGrandWazoo · 1 Apr 2020

Andyh82 said:
Here is one from Huddersfield that I was sent back in 2013, although I think the design is the same today
View attachment 75981

Was there some competition on the 321/4 - the return fare offer caught my eye?

Andyh82 · 1 Apr 2020

Yes, it was probably competition from K-Line back then, which has continued to the present since they became Yorkshire Tiger

Liam · 4 Apr 2020

robk23oxf said:
Stagecoach running cards most definitely stay on the bus. There are some minor variations between operating companies but all use the same design. Some depots have the driver changeover times marked on and others don't. Some running cards are simply numbered 01, 02, 03 etc and others have a call sign which is used to identify that vehicle for the day.

I work with Stagecoach and have worked in a few places. It varies from depot to depot. Where I work now we have bus boards and duty boards. But we sometimes have 4 or 5 buses on layover at bus stations, so the having the bus boards certainly helps in finding shuttle buses.

Tom B · 7 Apr 2020

How many bus companies show their running numbers to the public? London does this still, mostly, although in some cases drivers chuck a bit of paper in the windscreen rather than using the running number slots on the side.

Pat1105 · 7 Apr 2020

Tom B said:
How many bus companies show their running numbers to the public? London does this still, mostly, although in some cases drivers chuck a bit of paper in the windscreen rather than using the running number slots on the side.

As far as i’m aware, London is the only place that have running numbers. The running number isn’t the duty or running board number. It’s just a number that identifies a bus to a particular duty. For example, you are doing duty 526 which has running number 444. You’d then look for the bus that has 444 on the side. However, if there’s a fault with the bus at some point on the journey, the running number can be swapped over to a replacement vehicle and the next driver who takes over the bus has the correct bus for their duty.

Tom B · 7 Apr 2020

Pat1105 said:
As far as i’m aware, London is the only place that have running numbers. The running number isn’t the duty or running board number. It’s just a number that identifies a bus to a particular duty. For example, you are doing duty 526 which has running number 444. You’d then look for the bus that has 444 on the side. However, if there’s a fault with the bus at some point on the journey, the running number can be swapped over to a replacement vehicle and the next driver who takes over the bus has the correct bus for their duty.

First Mainline and LRT both use running numbers, although LRT refer to them as 'block numbers'.

Whisky Papa · 7 Apr 2020

Pat1105 said:
As far as i’m aware, London is the only place that have running numbers. The running number isn’t the duty or running board number. It’s just a number that identifies a bus to a particular duty. For example, you are doing duty 526 which has running number 444. You’d then look for the bus that has 444 on the side. However, if there’s a fault with the bus at some point on the journey, the running number can be swapped over to a replacement vehicle and the next driver who takes over the bus has the correct bus for their duty.

I'm slightly puzzled as to the actual dfference between the London "running number" and a "running board number", other than that the former is more obviously displayed on the outside of the vehicle? At GMT, there used to be a slot on the dash to accommodate the runnng board, which had its number on display (using large, self-adhesive numbers at the time). Do London buses have a running board number separate to the running number, and if so, what purpose does it serve?

bussnapperwm · 7 Apr 2020

Pat1105 said:
As far as i’m aware, London is the only place that have running numbers. The running number isn’t the duty or running board number. It’s just a number that identifies a bus to a particular duty. For example, you are doing duty 526 which has running number 444. You’d then look for the bus that has 444 on the side. However, if there’s a fault with the bus at some point on the journey, the running number can be swapped over to a replacement vehicle and the next driver who takes over the bus has the correct bus for their duty.

NXWM tried that on routes from their one Birmingham area depot for a short while. It didn't last long IIRC

Cesarcollie · 7 Apr 2020

Whisky Papa said:
I'm slightly puzzled as to the actual dfference between the London "running number" and a "running board number", other than that the former is more obviously displayed on the outside of the vehicle? At GMT, there used to be a slot on the dash to accommodate the runnng board, which had its number on display (using large, self-adhesive numbers at the time). Do London buses have a running board number separate to the running number, and if so, what purpose does it serve?

A running board number and a running number are effectively the same thing. A number allocated to a bus working for a day. In London, traditionally, and a few other places (though fairly rare) this number is displayed to be externally visible, whether in the windscreen or proper holders as per traditional LT practice.

Pat1105 · 7 Apr 2020

Cesarcollie said:
A running board number and a running number are effectively the same thing. A number allocated to a bus working for a day. In London, traditionally, and a few other places (though fairly rare) this number is displayed to be externally visible, whether in the windscreen or proper holders as per traditional LT practice.

Running numbers and running board numbers aren’t the same thing. A running board number is found at the top of the running board, duty card, whatever you want to call it! It is just the number of the board and makes it easier for drivers to find the correct board for their duty. For example you may be doing duty 363 and have to find board number 59/3 which shows it board number 3 on route 59 (this is how NXWM number their boards). Some companies use garage codes on their running boards, for example Stagecoach South Wales have running board CW11 (covers routes 46 & 83 last time I saw it), showing it is Cwmbran garage board number 11. A running number on the other hand is different. It is displayed on the bus and identifies a particular bus to a particular duty. As I mentioned earlier, it is used for drivers to identify the correct bus for their duty and makes this easier should vehicles have been swapped earlier in the day. For example, a driver who has duty 544 looks for a bus displaying number 327, which is their bus regardless of what the fleet number is on the allocation sheet (this sheet shows what buses are on what routes in terms of their fleet number). Some companies give drivers the fleet number of the bus they’re taking over but in London, you are given the running number of the bus you’re taking over.

Man of Kent · 7 Apr 2020

Pat1105 said:
Running numbers and running board numbers aren’t the same thing.

Yes they are. You've even described it that way. Cesarcollie was right too.
What this discussion has established is that some companies issue vehicle-based running boards*, and some issue driver-based duty cards* (*insert alternative local description here). However, to all intents and purposes, both will exist somewhere in a back office, as in essence they are what are required for regular services not to need a tachograph, and if on local bus work, to claim Bus Service Operators Grant, or its Welsh or Scottish equivalents.

Stan Drews · 7 Apr 2020

Pat1105 said:
Running numbers and running board numbers aren’t the same thing. A running board number is found at the top of the running board, duty card, whatever you want to call it! It is just the number of the board and makes it easier for drivers to find the correct board for their duty. For example you may be doing duty 363 and have to find board number 59/3 which shows it board number 3 on route 59 (this is how NXWM number their boards). Some companies use garage codes on their running boards, for example Stagecoach South Wales have running board CW11 (covers routes 46 & 83 last time I saw it), showing it is Cwmbran garage board number 11. A running number on the other hand is different. It is displayed on the bus and identifies a particular bus to a particular duty. As I mentioned earlier, it is used for drivers to identify the correct bus for their duty and makes this easier should vehicles have been swapped earlier in the day. For example, a driver who has duty 544 looks for a bus displaying number 327, which is their bus regardless of what the fleet number is on the allocation sheet (this sheet shows what buses are on what routes in terms of their fleet number). Some companies give drivers the fleet number of the bus they’re taking over but in London, you are given the running number of the bus you’re taking over.

You start by saying they’re not the same thing, and then go on to illustrate how they actually are the same thing i.e. how the company identifies which bus is on which run. Makes no difference if it’s a number printed on top of a laminated piece of paper, or a wee metal plate stuck in a holder attached either inside or outside the bus. Performs the exact same function, and easily moved from bus to bus, if necessary, by operations staff.

Pat1105 · 8 Apr 2020

Man of Kent said:
Yes they are. You've even described it that way. Cesarcollie was right too.
What this discussion has established is that some companies issue vehicle-based running boards*, and some issue driver-based duty cards* (*insert alternative local description here). However, to all intents and purposes, both will exist somewhere in a back office, as in essence they are what are required for regular services not to need a tachograph, and if on local bus work, to claim Bus Service Operators Grant, or its Welsh or Scottish equivalents.

Stan Drews said:
You start by saying they’re not the same thing, and then go on to illustrate how they actually are the same thing i.e. how the company identifies which bus is on which run. Makes no difference if it’s a number printed on top of a laminated piece of paper, or a wee metal plate stuck in a holder attached either inside or outside the bus. Performs the exact same function, and easily moved from bus to bus, if necessary, by operations staff.

I think there is a bit of confusion here. A running board and a duty card are the same thing. They are both a sheet of paper showing arrival/departure times for each portion of the duty. Different people/companies call it what they like. A RUNNING BOARD NUMBER is the number of the running board or duty card (whichever you call it). A RUNNING NUMBER is the metal plate attached to buses, mostly in London. The running number does not show the arrival and departure times for each stop.

Pat1105 · 8 Apr 2020

Hopefully this should clear things up:

This shows a running board. In the top right hand corner in bold is the RUNNING BOARD NUMBER , X96/01.

This shows a RUNNING NUMBER. It is the number attached to the side of the bus.

PG · 8 Apr 2020

EvoIV said:
Here's a copy of a diagram a former colleague sent me when he was working in Bournemouth. Quite a long day.

Geordie driver said:
A long day indeed but that appears to be the norm now in many places. I am quite impressed at some of the lay over times, the company I worked for would have shaved these down to 2 or 3 minutes, it killed them to let you sit for even a few minutes.

Would I be right in saying it's a legal requirement to have a running board when in service?

Is this why local service buses don't need tachographs?

Indeed a long day but drivers' often prefer that as they get an extra day off (or overtime opportunity) if they are on a guaranteed hours contract.

I guess the union in Bournemouth must be quite strong since 12 minutes sign off time seems generous these days. I've worked relatively recently for a major group company which signed you off the moment you reached the depot so cashing-in the days takings was done in your own time!

I don't think it's a legal requirement to have a running board when in service as I've known operator's who've just given drivers a copy of the public timetable. However by using a running board the operators' drivers are able to demonstrate compliance with hours' rules so thereby avoiding the need for the use (and fitment) of tachographs.

Stan Drews · 8 Apr 2020

Pat1105 said:
I think there is a bit of confusion here. A running board and a duty card are the same thing. They are both a sheet of paper showing arrival/departure times for each portion of the duty. Different people/companies call it what they like. A RUNNING BOARD NUMBER is the number of the running board or duty card (whichever you call it). A RUNNING NUMBER is the metal plate attached to buses, mostly in London. The running number does not show the arrival and departure times for each stop.

I think the more you try to explain, the more confusing you make it. Let’s try a different tack...

In order for a timetable to function properly it effectively needs two elements - a bus, and a driver.
When the commercial team are planning the timetable they will determine which bus is scheduled to operate each journey, and how many buses they will require - often referred to as the Peak Vehicle Requirement (PVR).
They will use some form of ‘code’ (usually a simple number) to identify each individual bus, and which journeys it is scheduled to work. These ‘numbers’ have a variety of names used by operators e.g. Bus Working, Car Line, Running Number, Bus Board etc etc.
There will be a working timetable that shows which ‘number’ operates every journey on the route.
Some operators have a method of identifying this ‘number’ on the allocated bus, which may take the form of a simple metal plate on the outside of the bus, or a laminated sheet of A4 in or around the cab.
Some operators also choose to have all the journeys operated by each bus ‘number’ printed and carried on the allocated bus.
The second element is the driver, and in most cases they will work differently to how the buses do.
This means they are likely to drive more than one bus within each duty.
Therefore the drivers duty will identify which bus they should be driving on each portion of their duty by using the ‘number’ of the bus, as discussed above.
It is quite common for each driver duty to be printed out and issued to the driver at the start of each day. This will show all the individual journeys being operated, along with any other relevant instructions.

There are a wide variety of methods used by operators across the country, and probably a wider variety of terminology, but each of them has a means of readily identifying which bus and driver is scheduled to operate every journey.

In the two photos you used to illustrate some of these systems, the bus for the first one would have a ‘1’ plate attached, whilst the ‘running board’ for the second would likely be X96/06.

I hope that has helped.

Whisky Papa · 8 Apr 2020

Thanks to all the contributions above re running numbers v running boards - they have answered the question to my satisfaction at least!

richw · 8 Apr 2020

Here at First Kernow, drivers have a duty card with their daily work detailed, important telephone numbers etc.
Each bus is assigned it’s car working number daily and that information is held in the supervisor office.

SeveerYeliab · 8 Apr 2020

In East Kent, where there is a lot of inter working, each driver will be given a laminated A4 sheet (eg FO23), telling them what they do throughout the day, each bus will have a duty on it as well, for all the drivers of the bus (eg 4350) , this is what is used to identify the bus that should be used.

However, in run out from the depot the driver will just be given the fleet number of the bus to take out.

tynesider · 8 Apr 2020

I don’t suppose anyone has any Go North East examples? I believe driver duty boards are used (not vehicle).
Percy Main depot would be of particular interest.

Cesarcollie · 8 Apr 2020

Pat1105 said:
Running numbers and running board numbers aren’t the same thing. A running board number is found at the top of the running board, duty card, whatever you want to call it! It is just the number of the board and makes it easier for drivers to find the correct board for their duty. For example you may be doing duty 363 and have to find board number 59/3 which shows it board number 3 on route 59 (this is how NXWM number their boards). Some companies use garage codes on their running boards, for example Stagecoach South Wales have running board CW11 (covers routes 46 & 83 last time I saw it), showing it is Cwmbran garage board number 11. A running number on the other hand is different. It is displayed on the bus and identifies a particular bus to a particular duty. As I mentioned earlier, it is used for drivers to identify the correct bus for their duty and makes this easier should vehicles have been swapped earlier in the day. For example, a driver who has duty 544 looks for a bus displaying number 327, which is their bus regardless of what the fleet number is on the allocation sheet (this sheet shows what buses are on what routes in terms of their fleet number). Some companies give drivers the fleet number of the bus they’re taking over but in London, you are given the running number of the bus you’re taking over.

Er......so they are the same thing then?

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