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Enforcement of the new rules on social distancing, unnecessary journeys etc.

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FGW_DID

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I’m following the guidelines for the good of my health, my family’s health and those around me at work, it’s quite simple really! I’m not trying to find loopholes or taking things to the extremes “just to prove a point”.

In the current situation, I can’t really understand why anybody would be? I understand not everybody likes the police (or anybody in authority) but surely them especially would want this situation over a lot sooner and without implementation of harsher restrictions.

But that’s my opinion, I’m sure there are some who will disagree and carry on regardless and not heed the sensible & simple guidelines as they know better but at the end of the day, it won’t be me having that extended discussion with the local constabulary just to prove a point. Then again you could be having a very difficult conversation with the NHS about the passing of your loved ones, just because you thought better!
 
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daodao

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Because the role of the Police is to target people who are acting illegally. It is none of their business whether someone's activities are considered to be "non-essential".

Sadly, "non-essential" travel has been deemed to be illegal under the legislation. Therefore, while walking alone in an isolated rural area is essentially a minimal risk activity, driving there is illegal unless one has another reason (defined in the legislation) to justify the journey. The police have been given the authority to stop drivers to question their reason for travelling and punish those who cannot supply a legitimate reason in accordance with the regulations for their journey. This power has been granted for 6 months in the first instance and the police are unlikely to relinquish voluntarily permission to stop and question drivers concerning their journey. The powers that the police now have has effectively turned the UK into a police state. I drove from the Borough of Trafford to the Borough of Bury on 23/3/20 to visit a particular shop, as I knew the lockdown was imminent; if I had made that journey today it would have been illegal.
 

FGW_DID

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journey. The powers that the police now have has effectively turned the UK into a police state.

really? When you compare our “lockdown” to the likes of France, Spain & Italy, ours is rather more relaxed!
 

sheff1

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SilentGrade

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But that’s my opinion, I’m sure there are some who will disagree and carry on regardless and not heed the sensible & simple guidelines as they know better but at the end of the day, it won’t be me having that extended discussion with the local constabulary just to prove a point. Then again you could be having a very difficult conversation with the NHS about the passing of your loved ones, just because you thought better!

Nobody is disputing the actual good in adhering to the guidelines but the police are not there to enforce ‘guidelines’ or ‘opinions’ they are there to enforce the law. What some forces have been doing is not this and that should be called out.

If the government wanted their guidelines to be enforced they should have transcribed them word for word into the regulations. They didn’t...

Otherwise it’s a slippery slope. There’d be outrage if all of a sudden the PM came out and said we shouldn’t drive because of the environmental impact and for the good of society, and all of a sudden the police started stopping people from driving their cars.
 

daodao

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really? When you compare our “lockdown” to the likes of France, Spain & Italy, ours is rather more relaxed!

Yes - the regulations are more relaxed, but there is no longer freedom of movement in the UK. Essentially, I can now only travel outside Altrincham and district to go to work, and then only because my job is deemed "essential".
 

sheff1

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It would be helpful if in the daily briefings instead of appealing to people to stay indoors they said what the current official law about going out is, and what the penalties for transgression might be. They could easily clear up this confusion but they don't seem to want to appear heavy handed.

They want to put the idea in people's minds that the restrictions are more 'draconian' than what is in the legislation. That is presumably a political judgement, as you suggest. The police, though, are there to enforce the actual law not what ceratin people, including some on this forum, think the law is/should be.
 

Busaholic

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I completely understand why the current restrictions are in place and why they should apply to everyone. This is a national emergency of a type that we have not experienced before within living memory. However, it does make it very difficult for some people in certain circumstances.

My mother is 85 and has dementia. I know it will get far worse as time progresses, but currently the only aspect that it is affecting her in a big way is her loss of short term memory. She is still fully aware of who people are and their names, she knows where she is both inside the house and outside, and can still hold a very sensible conversation to the point that some people would not know that there is very much wrong. However, if she was asked what she had to eat 5 minutes ago she would have no idea and she also after a few minutes has completely forgotten what she has seen and heard in the news and would have no idea what she did or where she went yesterday.

She requires stimulation to keep her brain active. Before things got really bad, in the 2 weeks leading up to the current lockdown, at least I was able to take her out for a ride in the car and whilst maintaining social distancing take a short walk out in the country. She didn’t really understand why we couldn’t go into a pub or tearoom for something to eat or why we couldn’t visit a garden centre, but she was enjoying getting out of the house and seeing the spring flowers and countryside. Fortunately we do have a garden which she can spend some time in but apart from that she is confined to the house.

The biggest problem resulting from the loss of short term memory is that she can’t remember anything about the coronavirus or the current restrictions. Every morning when she sees the newspaper it is a complete shock to her and she doesn’t understand why nobody has told her about this. This is repeated every time she sees or hears the news on the radio and tv. Dozens of times each day I am having to explain to her why the schools are closed, the church across the road is closed, why we can’t go out in the car or for a meal etc etc etc. The biggest problem of all is why she can’t go on her weekly trip to see my sister who lives about 50 miles away and she can’t come here. It’s like continuous Groundhog Day!

We live in a rural area and for her being taken out a few times a week in the car around the country lanes and villages would really help. I’m not allowing anyone else in my car at this time.
After just one week of being in the house with her and this continuous questioning about why everything is happening I’m not sure what my state of mind will be if this goes on right through the summer. Over the past couple of years I’ve had a week off each month and gone away on holiday whilst my sister has looked after my mum. She doesn’t need constant care at this stage and I am usually able to go out for hours and she’s quite happy and safe being left to potter around the house and garden. However, I am now stuck in the house with the constant questioning about things which she forgets within five minutes of me trying to explain.

I am not going to go against the current restrictions but this does seem a case where a drive out in the country or even a trip over to see her own daughter where we could sit for an hour well over 2 metres apart in the garden would be best for her and long term for my health and sanity. How, as time goes on, can I explain to her that she is not able to see her own daughter for perhaps months when she forgets within minutes the reason.
Very sorry to read about your situation. I've certainly got no answers, but if I was experiencing it I might do something I did once twenty-odd years ago about an apparently irreconciliable problem I had and write directly to the Chief Constable of your area. E-mail hardly existed then, and even if it had I'd still have sent a letter, mine being handwritten. I'd set out the conundrum just as you have here, but neither suggest you intend to breach any official guidance nor state that you will slavishly follow it: simply put the ball in his/her court. These days, I'd copy the letter to your publically-elected Commissioner too. Of course, it's not so simple if you live in London. Send the letter by Recorded Delivery. I was (mostly) pleasantly surprised by the response to mine, which even brought the Chief Constable the hundred miles down to my town to investigate for himself, though I wasn't invited to meet him. You might just receive some guidance, or a steer, as to something that could be done to ease the appalling dilemma you face. The very best of luck!
 

FGW_DID

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Yes - the regulations are more relaxed, but there is no longer freedom of movement in the UK. Essentially, I can now only travel outside Altrincham and district to go to work, and then only because my job is deemed "essential".

Yes, when you put it that way, that’s a fair point. I can leave the house but apart from work (key worker) which is about 40 miles away, I can fulfil all the other requirements in my local town.
 

Meerkat

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I honestly didn’t realise there were so many paranoid anti police people in this country!
Essential means what a reasonable person would deem essential, not pushing the law to the limits of its definitions as a protest.
Stay home, protect the NHS, save lives.
 

Tetchytyke

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It is not a fact, it is an opinion.

When it is the opinion of a Supreme Court judge I'd be inclined to listen to it.

Perhaps people who think the Police are acting outside their remit or “above the Law” may want to read this link:

Why? Is it a link to the legislation?

Problem is the actual wording of the law is relatively lenient.

No, problem is the police are attempting to enforce what they think the law should be, not what it actually is.

I don't think the law is lenient at all. I think placing huge restrictions on freedom of movement and freedom of association- two fundamental human rights- is pretty bloody draconian. But what I think of the law is also irrelevant.
 

Tetchytyke

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When you compare our “lockdown” to the likes of France, Spain & Italy, ours is rather more relaxed!

France's isn't more draconian, just more bureaucratic. Spain have reverted to Francoist type, I quite agree, but I wouldn't be using a country which imprisons opposition politicians for "sedition" as my benchmark of a free state.

I honestly didn’t realise there were so many paranoid anti police people in this country!

Expecting the police to abide by the actual law, and not one they've just made up, is what qualifies someone as ACAB now?
 

Jonny

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They want to put the idea in people's minds that the restrictions are more 'draconian' than what is in the legislation. That is presumably a political judgement, as you suggest. The police, though, are there to enforce the actual law not what ceratin people, including some on this forum, think the law is/should be.

What doesn't help is that there are four different sets of regulations due to the use of devolved powers - one each for England, Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland. They are also slightly different, e.g. the once-a-day restriction on off-premises exercise applies in Wales but not in England.
 

FGW_DID

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https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/explainers-52106843

Posted on the BBC some hours ago. I think it explains it quite succinctly. I will hold my hands up, I was quite surprised (should I be? :rolleyes: ) that some of the main messages the Govt are pushing, they haven’t backed up with legislation! FFS.
and there lies a problem - mixed messages!

And the government's instructions to the public for preventing the spread of coronavirus go far further than the laws police have to enforce them.

Once again, the Govt are expecting one thing from the Police but are expecting them to do it with one hand tied behind the back! (Again, should I be surprised?)

however, again in my opinion, here lies the actual and probably the main problem:

The National Police Chiefs Council has urged people to use their common sense - by thinking about whether they should leave home.

Has he ever met the British Public? :lol::lol: Don’t expect them to use common sense, tell them what they need to be doing and legislate for it!
 

Tetchytyke

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some of the main messages the Govt are pushing, they haven’t backed up with legislation! FFS.
and there lies a problem - mixed messages!

I don't see how it is a mixed message? Guidelines and laws are different things and serve different purposes. Guidelines are for people to aim for; laws are there to enforce a minimum standard.

It's the same with most things. The government recommend you don't drink and drive, but the alcohol limit is not zero, for instance). The police are well used to these differences.

Maybe the laws should be tougher (it won't come as a shock that I don't agree) but that's a different argument. I don't understand why "the police should enforce the actual law, not one they've made up" is controversial, no matter how well-meaning their intentions might be.
 

FGW_DID

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I think we can all agree, this is an unprecedented situation, certainly within the majority of our lifetimes.
I think the Police are out there with the best intentions for the public. TBF what have they to gain from it?
Why some people (generalisation about the public) seem intent on bending the rules and ignoring guidelines supposedly for their own benefit / protection is beyond me, again what do they hope to achieve or gain from it?

IMO Laws should be tougher and reflect what Govt actually wants them to do (and yes we will disagree on that!). Personally I would be quite happy to see the military deployed in support of the Police but I’m sure we can leave that for another thread!
 

FGW_DID

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https://news.sky.com/story/coronavi...-after-testing-positive-for-covid-19-11966273
The patients were aged between 19 and 98 years old and all but 28 of them had underlying health conditions.

The 19-year-old victim did not have underlying health conditions, NHS England said.

In a separate announcement announced late on Tuesday evening, an apparently healthy 13-year-old boy from south London became the youngest UK victim of coronavirus.
13 years old & 19 years old - that’s no age! Apparently healthy (but obviously a Post Mortem may say otherwise).

Still, let’s not observe the guidelines because you can’t tell me what to do & I have a point to prove that it’s lawful and that’s really all that matters!

Fill yer boots! :'(

Stay at Home, Support the NHS, Save Lives!
 
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Bantamzen

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https://news.sky.com/story/coronavi...-after-testing-positive-for-covid-19-11966273

13 years old & 19 years old - that’s no age! Apparently healthy (but obviously a Post Mortem may say otherwise).

Still, let’s not observe the guidelines because you can’t tell me what to do & I have a point to prove that it’s lawful and that’s really all that matters!

Fill yer boots! :'(

Stay at Home, Support the NHS, Save Lives!

I really wish people wouldn't use cases like those in this manner. It may come as a shock to you but perfectly healthy people die from infections all the time, my sister was one. Using them to slate someone else for simply arguing against the recommendations is a bit below the belt to say the least.
 

nedchester

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I really wish people wouldn't use cases like those in this manner. It may come as a shock to you but perfectly healthy people die from infections all the time, my sister was one. Using them to slate someone else for simply arguing against the recommendations is a bit below the belt to say the least.
Indeed.

I went out twice yesterday. Once to take the dog for a walk and once for a bike ride. At no point did I get less than two metres from another person.

Just act sensibly, keep away from others and you fulfil the government’s goal.

it’s not the going out twice, going for four hours exercise that matters it’s what happens when you’re out there.
 

Bletchleyite

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Yes - the regulations are more relaxed, but there is no longer freedom of movement in the UK. Essentially, I can now only travel outside Altrincham and district to go to work, and then only because my job is deemed "essential".

That's not how the law is worded. You can't walk out of your front door unless one of the items in the list is the reason, however if one of them is there is effectively no limit to the travel you can legally do for that end. For instance you can go to your local preferred supermarket, you don't have to go to the nearest one.

There is no arbitrary town or district limit of any kind.

However, it is important we don't take the mick.
 

AndrewE

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That's not how the law is worded. You can't walk out of your front door unless one of the items in the list is the reason, however if one of them is there is effectively no limit to the travel you can legally do for that end. For instance you can go to your local preferred supermarket, you don't have to go to the nearest one.
Not quite, the list says the reasons include [but therefore are not limited to...]
The regs do not say "shall only be..."
 

Bletchleyite

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Not quite, the list says the reasons include [but therefore are not limited to...]
The regs do not say "shall only be..."

Fair point. My point, however, is that there is no arbitrary restriction to any given location, and "I want to go to Waitrose" will give a different answer to "I want a bottle of milk".
 

yorkie

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Still, let’s not observe the guidelines because you can’t tell me what to do & I have a point to prove that it’s lawful and that’s really all that matters!

Fill yer boots! :'(

Stay at Home, Support the NHS, Save Lives!
Your message is very vague, and - I think - muddled, but if you are having a go at people like me who are keen to go out for an appropriate amount of exercise, I would say your message is completely misguided and demonstrates a lack of understanding. There are two main potential ways to save lives:
  1. by not having too many cases in a short period of time, i.e. flattening the curve (we're not at the peak yet, so any hints or suggestions that anyone's actions have contributed to these deaths is clearly unfounded)
  2. having a population that has a good immune system; I've explained above what contributes to that, and if we all do everything we can to try to get our immune systems in good order, that will have a huge effect. The vast majority of people should not need hospital treatment, but there is a real danger that many more people will need it, due to being under stress or being less healthy than they would otherwise have been. Ignore this factor at your peril.
If there are a lot of people out it becomes hard to stay apart.
One way round that is to go to quieter places. Anyway I've not had any problems staying apart from others whatsoever. The most difficult part was crossing the Millenium Bridge but even then everyone was being sensible apart from a few people who were sat at the top and I saw the police moving them on (the police I saw were acting appropriately, as the vast majority of police officer are, and were very different from the Derbyshire examples who made the news)
 

CaptainHaddock

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Could be interesting this weekend as, unlike last weekend, the weather's looking fine and warm, which may well bring the crowds out.

Perhaps one potential solution would be to adopt the restrictions in Australia where you can still use a park to exercise in - but you can't lounge, nap, sunbathe, or just peacefully gaze at the trees as you might once have. Break those rules and you face a six month jail sentence or a fine. That way people who need to exercise would still be able to do so but those trying to have group gatherings or picnics would be kept out.
 

ashkeba

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I think we can all agree, this is an unprecedented situation, certainly within the majority of our lifetimes.
I think the Police are out there with the best intentions for the public. TBF what have they to gain from it?
It probably makes their crime cleanup performance look better, doesn't it?

Why some people (generalisation about the public) seem intent on bending the rules and ignoring guidelines supposedly for their own benefit / protection is beyond me, again what do they hope to achieve or gain from it?
That's almost unrelated to enforcement.
 

_toommm_

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The discussion on whether you can drive to do your daily exercise or not has been clarified:

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...g-coronavirus-lockdown?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other

Police chiefs have told officers that people should not be punished for driving a reasonable distance to exercise, and that blanket checks were disproportionate, in a bid to quell a row about heavy-handed enforcement of the coronavirus lockdown.

Amid anger at some forces setting up checkpoints and using drones to target people visiting rural beauty spots, the guidance reissued and updated late on Tuesday aims to forge more consistency across 44 forces in England and Wales.

It is issued by the College of Policing, which sets professional standards, and the National Police Chiefs Council (NPCC), and tells officers both what they can do and what police leaders would prefer them to refrain from doing.

It sticks to the powers in the emergency law passed last Thursday, and not statements made by senior government figures about what they wanted the public to do. The two had been contradictory and were the source of potential confusion for some officers.

One police chief, whose force had been caught in the eye of the storm caused by forces applying the powers differently, said on Tuesday the new laws had been “unclear”.

The draconian powers were given to police to enforce an unprecedented lockdown closing non-essential shops, banning gatherings of more than two people and restricting when people can be outside their homes.

The guidance stresses officers “police by consent” and that during the pandemic, people must have a reasonable excuse to leave their home to stop the virus spreading and resulting in a spike in fatalities.

Announcing the lockdown last Monday, Boris Johnson said people could exercise only once a day. But in the briefing from police leaders, no limit is stated as to how many times people can exercise, with the guidance to officers saying valid excuses to be outside include “to take exercise alone or with other members of their household”.

The sight of checkpoints by some police forces caused alarm, while others did not feel the need to set them up on the British mainland. Police in north Yorkshire, for instance, set up checkpoints to stop people and enquire about their destination.

The briefing to officers, which they will be expected to follow, says: “The coronavirus act and coronavirus regulations do not explicitly confer any powers on police officers to stop vehicles.”

It says officers can use the road traffic act to stop vehicles for any reason, and this could lead to offences under the coronavirus act being detected.

But then adds: “Use your judgment and common sense; for example, people will want to exercise locally and may need to travel to do so, we don’t want the public sanctioned for travelling a reasonable distance to exercise. Road checks on every vehicle is equally disproportionate.

“We should reserve enforcement only for individuals who have not responded to engage, explain, and encourage, where public health is at risk,” the guidance says, referring to the ‘four Es’ approach the NPCC previously said will enforce the lockdown.

Officers are told that enforcement actions such as arrest or the issuing of a fine should be used as a last resort.

Several forces have taken no enforcement action since the emergency laws came into effect, finding that explaining and encouraging people to comply has worked. Lancashire police, however, have taken enforcement action 123 times.

The briefing also says parents or guardians can be fined if their children break the law, and force can be used to get a child back home: “If you are dealing with a parent or guardian who is not preventing their child going outdoors and all other avenues to engage, explain and encourage have been exhausted, you should enforce by issuing them with a fine.”

The emergency laws are unprecedented in their scope and breadth for British policing. “Use them during the national emergency while honouring the traditions of British policing,” the guidance says.

“We police by consent. The initial police response should be to encourage voluntary compliance.

“There is no power to ‘stop and account’. The police will apply the law in a system that is flexible, discretionary and pragmatic. This will enable officers to make sensible decisions and employ their judgment. Enforcement should be a last resort.”

Derbyshire’s chief constable, whose force was described as “disgraceful” by a former supreme court judge, had earlier defended the behaviour of his officers. Ch Con Peter Goodman said the emergency laws were unclear, and argued the use of police drones to highlight people exercising on a seemingly empty Peak District was meant to start a conversation.

He said his officers had yet to issue a fine, a summons or make an arrest. He reacted after Derbyshire constabulary was singled out by Lord Sumption, who described the use of the drones as “disgraceful” and reminiscent of a police state.
 

Bantamzen

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Could be interesting this weekend as, unlike last weekend, the weather's looking fine and warm, which may well bring the crowds out.

Perhaps one potential solution would be to adopt the restrictions in Australia where you can still use a park to exercise in - but you can't lounge, nap, sunbathe, or just peacefully gaze at the trees as you might once have. Break those rules and you face a six month jail sentence or a fine. That way people who need to exercise would still be able to do so but those trying to have group gatherings or picnics would be kept out.

A fine maybe, but the 6 months in jail is pushing it too far.
 
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