Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
From the Horton in Ribblesdale thread - which is it?
I would venture Tring as a possibility until the new lifts open?
I would venture Tring as a possibility until the new lifts open?
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What is the largest/busiest NR station with no step-free access?
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Halifaxlad
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Todmorden,
No step free access on the Down platform!
636,040 users (2018-19) according to the ORR station statistics.
https://dataportal.orr.gov.uk/statistics/usage/estimates-of-station-usage/
Who can trump that ?
No step free access on the Down platform!
636,040 users (2018-19) according to the ORR station statistics.
https://dataportal.orr.gov.uk/statistics/usage/estimates-of-station-usage/
Who can trump that ?
Halifaxlad
Established Member
Point taken, may be we should have two categories, one in the South and the other in the North.
If we're going to be serious about Access for All (A4A?), and not stop or slow it- making disadvantaged folks pay the price of Covid- someone somewhere I hope is already assessing and prioritising. Of course we will all rate this or that criterion more or less important. Because each location is individual there will need to be a lot of preparatory and design work, but some will be easier (low-hanging fruit) and will give encouragement when folk see something happening.
I don't have impaired mobility myself so not very well qualified to comment- hopefully those that are and those who speak and campaign on their behalf have been consulted.
I have a feeling that those more interested in 'heritage', architecture and views will have their say too, and expect to prevail. They are usually 'well-connected'.
At home, stairs are the greatest cause of accidents (more than kitchens I think) and in construction 'falls from height', so I can see A4A benefiting us all actually.
I don't have impaired mobility myself so not very well qualified to comment- hopefully those that are and those who speak and campaign on their behalf have been consulted.
I have a feeling that those more interested in 'heritage', architecture and views will have their say too, and expect to prevail. They are usually 'well-connected'.
At home, stairs are the greatest cause of accidents (more than kitchens I think) and in construction 'falls from height', so I can see A4A benefiting us all actually.
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
I don't quite understand your point - stairs will not be removed from stations, just lifts added as well.
Bletchleyite: Sorry- a danger of a Forum I find; I need to reread to be sure I am clearer. I thought, perhaps wrongly, that something presented as 'Access for All' would be wanting to improve how people get to and around stations,and on and off trains, etc, which includes perhaps improving widths, reducing or eliminating ramps and stairs, as well as providing lifts where appropriate. I have certainly found myself taking the lift when available to avoid stairs, esp where the stairs take up and down together- they are dangerous. Lifts are good for all, and stairs by all means for those who want them- stairs are often/ usually quicker. I am not saying stairs should be removed; I am only meaning that step-free routes should be available everywhere in due course. It's an equality issue and helps folk with buggies or poor eyesight as well as sticks or wheelchairs ...
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reytomas1228
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Surely this has to be Moorgate. Even after the Crossrail works, the NR platforms will have no lift access
alistairlees
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High Brooms has over 1 million users annually. The down platform is steps only. And the up platform has a single step through the booking hall, or a fairly steep ramp (at right angles to the platform). Still, nowhere near the volumes of Raynes Park.
Mikey C
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Elephant and Castle has around 3m passengers, and is served by stairs only. The stairs are steep too!
I suppose it rather depends on which definition of step free you want to use. Providing lifts does not make a station step free in terms of the Equalities Act. To be truly step free the maximum step and gap PRM can be expected to cope with is 50mm step and 50mm gap. The principle being that to give equal accessibility for both able bodied and PRM that is the maximum deviation allowed. I think that would mean very few of our stations meet that rule, for example, London Waterloo has a much greater step than that between platform and train.
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
I think none in that sense (except possibly some served by Stadler FLIRTs) however assistance is provided with ramps etc to counter this. So the definition would necessarily be "possible to reach the platform in a wheelchair".
That's probably going to be the highest for both platforms being inaccessible I imagine in London. I've thought of some others but they're all around the 1-2m mark.
Edit: Peckham Rye actually (it's not step free although it was meant to be). 7.2m passengers with lots of interchanges.
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The use of ramps does not meet the requirements of the Equalities Act. If ramps are not provided for and used by the able bodied then it is not equal if a PRM has to use them. True equality means no "special arrangements" for PRM, just use the same provisions as are made for the able bodied.
But OK, for this column, then we use access platform by wheelchair - but don't forget the visually and audibly challenged!
Yes there is still no lift or ramp access to platform 1. I understand the plan was/is to fix this as part of a big rebuild of the castelfield corridor but said plan has been stuck in the beauracracy/funding quagmire for ages.
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
Yes it does. The Act requires "reasonable adjustments" to be made. Replacing the entire train fleet when it is not in need of replacement is not a "reasonable adjustment" when a ramp can be used instead.
"Reasonable adjustments" so that PRM's can do things in an equal way as able bodied do? That would mean getting on and off trains without any form of external intervention, like the provision of temporary ramps. The industry is going to have to accept that it has to make a step change (no pun intended) in how it interprets "Equal" because what it's doing currently is most certainly not equal. If it doesn't start to evolve by itself it will have change forced upon it.
TfL are currently leading the way, they provide ramped platforms so that wheelchair users can get on and off without assistance, if they can make this "reasonable adjustment" why can't the national network? Sitting back and doing nothing is not going to be an acceptable course of action.
TfL (on some routes - and Thameslink in the Core) can do this because each route operates with only one design of train which stops at every station. Neither description applies to much of the rest of NR. Automatic devices for level access (eg the new Stadler units for GA) are coming but are still fairly new.
You know, if I sat down and analysed which sort of stock used each station and then looked at where to put stop boards for each sort and looked at how long I had to make raised platforms I reckon I could certainly cover 90% of what is required. It just needs someone to take a positive, can do, attitude to the problem rather than a "let's see what we are forced to do" negative attitude!
And what height to put them? And how to deal with non-stopping trains safely?
I quite agree that present provision falls short of what the law requires, let alone your more ambitious target.
Height and distance are determined by the Act. So the aim must be to cater for the majority whilst respecting the TSI height requirement (from memory 914mm from rail height?) for future stock/platforms. The requirement is a step height of no more than +/- 50mm and a gap of not greater than 50mm. Shouldn't be too difficult to come up with a design for that.
By the way, it's not my "more ambitious" target, it's what the Act says!
Apologies, I assumed the guidance I read last night represented the law. Happy to be corrected.
https://www.gov.uk/guidance/rights-of-disabled-passengers-on-transport#rail
https://www.disabilityjustice.org.u...action/public-transport-discrimination-guide/
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The design is easy.
The cost and disruption and length of time to do all this on a busy network is the "unreasonable" part. It cannot be done overnight nor without disuption, as great as an ambition that is to seek.
Whilst not disagreeing with what you have said, it has been the law for around ten years now so there should, as a very minimum, be a plan in place saying how compliance will be achieved and by when.
Some will say that the railways have been allowed to get away with non-compliance for too long. But that's starting to change and they are being forced to comply. Some classes of train are having to be withdrawn, as I'm sure you know, because they don't comply. That's just the start of forcing the train operators and the infrastructure maintainer to comply with the legal requirements. They have been using loopholes - like requiring advance booking of assistance - but that's going to come to an end. If able bodied can turn up and travel without booking in advance then PRM must be afforded the equal of that. As you will see, the gov guidance has an expiry date, yesterday! Change is coming!
edwin_m
Veteran Member
The pressure for level boarding has now led to two different and incompatible solutions. Raising the platform to 1.1m allows level boarding with "standard" multiple units, though not the likes of Pendolinos and Voyagers with higher floors. It appears to be incompatible with any platform where other trains pass by, but has been done where this doesn't happen such as the East London Line, Heathrow Express and the central part of Crossrail. The other option is to have the floor at entrances level with the UK standard 914mm platform, although currently only Stadler offers this.
Mikey C
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Plus just having a partial version of the first option with a Harrington hump that aligns with a designated wheelchair area, something which only works when you have only one type of unit stopping at a station, e.g on the London Underground or the 700s at STP.
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