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I forgot my tickets, I have proved that I had purchased them.

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RighthookRaz

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Hey guys, new to this forum so I hope I'm posting in the correct place.

This month I forgot to show my tickets on two occasions (I left them at work, stupid, I know.) I was assured by the enforcement officers that I could dispute these claims and will be fine if I actually did have valid tickets. I sent scans of my tickets for both days to merseyrail enforcement. We have been back and forth a lot but I've basically been given the ultimatum to pay £100 for each incident or "court costs £150 x2, a fine of £100, the fares avoided, plus a victim surcharge of £32. You would also receive a criminal conviction." if I lose a court case.

Both journeys were return tickets from Liverpool Limestreet to Formby.

Can anyone give me any advice? Is this a case that I could win?
 
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mikeg

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Unfortunately the byelaws require you have the tickets there and then and present them for inspection. What legislation are they using if it says? What is the wording of the allegation against you?
 
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74A

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What sort of ticket. There are different rules for season tickets.
 
Haywain

Haywain

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74A said:
What sort of ticket. There are different rules for season tickets.
Click to expand...
Even a forgotten season ticket requires you to purchase a valid ticket to travel and then claim a refund.
 
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RighthookRaz

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mikeg said:
Unfortunately the byelaws require you have the tickets there and then and present them for inspection. What legislation are they using if it says? What is the wording of the allegation against you?
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"Thank you for your email.

Having looked into this for you, we understand you were unable to produce a Valid ticket for the journeys you had embarked on. Whilst we understand from your email below that you have sent pictures of tickets. On the days in question you still failed to produce a valid ticket when asked to do so by a member of Merseyrail staff.

The revenue protection officer will report such an offence under Section 5 of the Railway Regulations Act 1889. As such offences can be deemed as fare evasion or failing to produce a valid ticket this can be dealt with at the Magistrates’ Court. However, Merseyrail always give those reported the opportunity to settle the matter out of court by way of an administrative charge of £100. Should a case progress to court Merseyrail apply for costs to the value of £150. We therefore feel the value of the administrative charge is reasonable.


Having taken the time to review the evidence we are satisfied the situation was dealt with fairly and consistently in line with company policy and the aforementioned statute of law, and that a consistent approach was taken in dealing with all incidents of ticketless travel."
 
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6Gman

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RighthookRaz said:
Hey guys, new to this forum so I hope I'm posting in the correct place.

This month I forgot to show my tickets on two occasions (I left them at work, stupid, I know.) I was assured by the enforcement officers that I could dispute these claims and will be fine if I actually did have valid tickets. I sent scans of my tickets for both days to merseyrail enforcement. We have been back and forth a lot but I've basically been given the ultimatum to pay £100 for each incident or "court costs £150 x2, a fine of £100, the fares avoided, plus a victim surcharge of £32. You would also receive a criminal conviction." if I lose a court case.

Both journeys were return tickets from Liverpool Limestreet to Formby.

Can anyone give me any advice? Is this a case that I could win?
Click to expand...

Just to be clear about what happened.

You travelled Formby to Lime Street. No problem.
You went to work.
You left your ticket at work.
You went to Lime Street (how did you get through the barriers or were they open?).
Where did you encounter the enforcement officers?
 
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RighthookRaz

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6Gman said:
Just to be clear about what happened.

You travelled Formby to Lime Street. No problem.
You went to work.
You left your ticket at work.
You went to Lime Street (how did you get through the barriers or were they open?).
Where did you encounter the enforcement officers?
Click to expand...
Formby has no barriers, you can just get on the train. But I realised I had left my tickets at work about halfway through my train journey. I encountered the enforcement officers at the barriers.
 
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6Gman

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RighthookRaz said:
Formby has no barriers, you can just get on the train. But I realised I had left my tickets at work about halfway through my train journey. I encountered the enforcement officers at the barriers.
Click to expand...

So was your journey the other way round?

Lime Street to Formby - work - then return?
 
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island

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Unfortunately, if you choose to board a train without being in possession of a valid ticket, that is a criminal offence. The fact you had purchased tickets but did not have them with you does not really get you anywhere, as the ticket could have been given to someone else.

Whilst it is not ideal that you were given assurances by train company staff that the matter could be resolved by sending in proof of your tickets, this is often suggested in order to de-escalate potential conflicts or secure passenger compliance, and nothing can turn on it.

It does not seem to me that you have a defence against a prosecution in this case and I would urge you to pay the sum requested promptly to avoid the matter escalating further and a potential criminal record. If you make this journey frequently, I would suggest purchasing a season ticket in future.
 
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Hadders

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This is an unfortunate incident. Officially you are in the wrong as you weren't able to produce a valid ticket. I would pay the £100 administrative settlement to stop it escalating to court which would be far more hassle. Chalk it up to experience and try not to forget your ticket again in future.
 
30907

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Some requests for clarification:
Were these the first incident(s) that brought you to the attention of Merseyrail Revenue Protection?
How many days/weeks/months apart were they?
Could you clarify what paperwork/mails you received at what stage?
Was the response to the second incident different from the first?
 
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RighthookRaz

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30907 said:
Some requests for clarification:
Were these the first incident(s) that brought you to the attention of Merseyrail Revenue Protection?
How many days/weeks/months apart were they?
Could you clarify what paperwork/mails you received at what stage?
Was the response to the second incident different from the first?
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They were the first incidents.
10th and the 17th of March.
I received one letter around the 20th and another a few days later, I can't remember the specific dates. They were both at the same stage stating I have to pay a fine, etc, etc.
Both responses in the letter were identical.
My first email to merseyrail was in regards to both incidents.
 
furlong

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The precise details of the conversations that took place on both occasions might be crucial - whether (a representative of) the company twice said you would "be fine if I actually did have valid ticket" without mentioning that the company would also require an additional sum of money to be paid, or whether you were merely told you "might" "be fine" and this did not amount to a binding agreement. If you believe whatever was discussed was binding on both you and the company, and you haven't already stated otherwise in your previous correspondence, then consider making that crystal clear, and reading up on (or seeking legal advice regarding) "abuse of process".
 
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some bloke

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Arguing abuse of process would not be straightforward - it might be difficult to prove to a court's satisfaction (or the company's, before court) what the staff members unambiguously said.

"The burden of establishing that the bringing or continuation of criminal proceedings amounts to an abuse of the court's process is on the defendant."

The Crown Prosecution Service
https://www.cps.gov.uk/legal-guidance/abuse-process

Also, we'd expect that the first staff member was only talking about the one case they were involved in, not what would happen if you did the same thing again within a week. If you didn't tell the second staff member about the earlier case, they were presumably also only talking about one incident.
 
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furlong

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(There may also be a flaw in the quoted response: "We therefore feel the value of the administrative charge is reasonable." suggests the company might have applied the wrong legal test and as such the level of that charge might be open to challenge - but it could cost you more to challenge if you pay for advice than you recover.)
 
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Brissle Girl

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As others have said you are best off cutting your losses than trying your luck in court. Any slight inclination of a magistrate to give you the benefit of the doubt (already pretty remote) is likely to be extinguished by the fact that it happened twice exactly a week apart.

An expensive lesson to learn twice unfortunately. Try and think of a place you can put your ticket as soon as you arrive at work that guarantees you won’t forget it when leaving.
 
furlong

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some bloke said:
Arguing abuse of process would not be straightforward
Click to expand...
It rarely is - difficult even with legal representation.

it might be difficult to prove to a court's satisfaction (or the company's, before court) what the staff members unambiguously said.
Click to expand...
Witness statements and cross-examination could assist.

If you didn't tell the second staff member about the earlier case, they were presumably also only talking about one incident.
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I doubt it would make any difference in terms of "abuse of process" (unless the OP said something materially misleading) as "the company" is a single entity which was capable of taking information it already held into account (and its choosing not to do so shouldn't make an agreement void).
 
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furlong said:
"the company" is a single entity which was capable of taking information it already held into account (and its choosing not to do so shouldn't make an agreement void).
Click to expand...
If each staff member was only talking about the one incident they dealt with, there was no agreement not to prosecute for the two incidents.
 
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some bloke

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furlong said:
There may also be a flaw in the quoted response: "We therefore feel the value of the administrative charge is reasonable."
Click to expand...
It might seem inappropriate that they've simply doubled the rate for a single offence. The prosecutor would deal with both at once, and some of the admin is being done for both. So it isn't obviously right for them to compare two £100 admin charges with two lots of £150 costs, and say £100 is reasonable.

Whether it's worth challenging the amount (and offering what? £150 total?) while trying to make sure they don't withdraw the offer of a settlement, perhaps others can say. It might depend on what correspondence you've exchanged in addition to what you've quoted above. They know you aren't in a very strong position, and as you say you've been back and forth a lot, maybe it's best just to pay up even if the reasoning they presented on the amount isn't great.
 
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WesternLancer

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island said:
Unfortunately, if you choose to board a train without being in possession of a valid ticket, that is a criminal offence. The fact you had purchased tickets but did not have them with you does not really get you anywhere, as the ticket could have been given to someone else.

Whilst it is not ideal that you were given assurances by train company staff that the matter could be resolved by sending in proof of your tickets, this is often suggested in order to de-escalate potential conflicts or secure passenger compliance, and nothing can turn on it.

It does not seem to me that you have a defence against a prosecution in this case and I would urge you to pay the sum requested promptly to avoid the matter escalating further and a potential criminal record. If you make this journey frequently, I would suggest purchasing a season ticket in future.
Click to expand...

I agree with your advice but ref this:

Whilst it is not ideal that you were given assurances by train company staff that the matter could be resolved by sending in proof of your tickets, this is often suggested in order to de-escalate potential conflicts or secure passenger compliance, and nothing can turn on it.

I can see why they would do this obviously, but ultimately it's not helpful if it's a lie (or perhaps in reality they say along lines of 'You may be able to appeal this and get your money back if you can proove you did have a ticket').
 
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island

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Indeed – the precise form of words is important, and may have been misremembered.
 
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RighthookRaz

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WesternLancer said:
I agree with your advice but ref this:

Whilst it is not ideal that you were given assurances by train company staff that the matter could be resolved by sending in proof of your tickets, this is often suggested in order to de-escalate potential conflicts or secure passenger compliance, and nothing can turn on it.

I can see why they would do this obviously, but ultimately it's not helpful if it's a lie (or perhaps in reality they say along lines of 'You may be able to appeal this and get your money back if you can proove you did have a ticket').
Click to expand...
island said:
Indeed – the precise form of words is important, and may have been misremembered.
Click to expand...
Yeah, it's difficult to remember the exact wording of what they had said about my future dispute, but I do specifically remember them saying 'as long as you have valid tickets, it's fine.' which I guess can be up to interpretation what that actually means. I understand they would say something like this to de-escalate a situation. Just doesn't seem right to do if they're telling me something that isn't really true.

Thanks for all the advice so far, it's been really helpful. I probably won't be taking it to court but will try to see if I can lower the amount they're asking me to pay. Anymore advice is really helpful. Thanks.
 
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WesternLancer

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RighthookRaz said:
Yeah, it's difficult to remember the exact wording of what they had said about my future dispute, but I do specifically remember them saying 'as long as you have valid tickets, it's fine.' which I guess can be up to interpretation what that actually means. I understand they would say something like this to de-escalate a situation. Just doesn't seem right to do if they're telling me something that isn't really true.

Thanks for all the advice so far, it's been really helpful. I probably won't be taking it to court but will try to see if I can lower the amount they're asking me to pay. Anymore advice is really helpful. Thanks.
Click to expand...
Yeah - I agree with your analysis.

A good idea on your way forward - you will have to appeal to their better nature however. Because Mersey Travel is 'locally accountable' to the Liverpool City Region / local govt it may be worth you contacting your local councillor to ask them to support a request on your behalf - basically you need to get your Councillor to take it up as a case and ask them if they would be prepared to look again at the sum they are asking for and reduce it, esp if you have any mitigating circs eg - low wage, part time, student or some such - a Councillor should be used to making representations on behalf of constituents in this manner so no harm in asking.

Go on your local councils website and find the info that tell you how to contact Councillors by ward - most have a postcode finder that tells you how to contact them. Chances are that you have never heard of your local Councillor but they are often very happy to try to help constituents.

In practical terms best way to do that is to write to MerseyTravel with your request - then send a copy of that to your Councillor with a covering message asking them if they can help / support by raising the case on your behalf with MerseyTravel.

As they operate locally it's not unusual to maybe even ring your Councillor to discuss it and seek their input/advice/ help.

Good luck with it
 
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joke2711 said:
Seems a tad harsh that they have taken the straight prosecution route as I thought penalty fares were for situations where mistakes had been made without intent to deliberately evade paying the fare due.
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It may seem harsh, but without being able to present a valid ticket on demand AND no means of paying at least the fare due for the journey, an encounter with Revenue Protection was only ever likely to end with a report for possible prosecution I'm afraid.
 
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