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Marylebone Diesel Locomorives

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adamskiodp

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Hi folks,

I hope all are well and staying safe in these strange times.

Just a quick question:

Did Marylebone have any 1st generation diesel locomotives hauling expresses out to Aylesbury and beyond? Or was it all steam until closure north of Aylesbury and the Class 115’s take over all Aylesbury services?
 
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delt1c

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I believe there were some services operated by 37’s
 

Bevan Price

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Hi folks,

I hope all are well and staying safe in these strange times.

Just a quick question:

Did Marylebone have any 1st generation diesel locomotives hauling expresses out to Aylesbury and beyond? Or was it all steam until closure north of Aylesbury and the Class 115’s take over all Aylesbury services?

It was not all steam north of Aylesbury. In the last year or two, there was one round trip booked for a Class 115 DMU from Marylebone to Nottingham Victoria and back.

I think the other diagrams remained mostly steam, but there may have been occasional substitutions by main line diesels if steam was unavailable (or failed). There may be reports of such events in the railway press from that era - but many of them tended to ignore diesel power as much as possible.
 

RT4038

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The Cl. 37 working was from Sheffield Victoria to Banbury and back, so didn't go to Marylebone. This was replaced by a Cl. 47 in the last months before closure. Aside from the DMU working mentioned above, the remaining trains to Marylebone from north of Aylesbury were booked for Steam, but Cl. 24 diesels did substitute for failures (indeed D5000 worked the 14h38 from Marylebone on the last day).
In 1967, after closure of the line north of Aylesbury, the Birmingham-Paddington service was diverted into Marylebone for some months (due to reconstruction at Paddington) and Cl 47 and Warship diesels appeared on these trains.
 

Whistler40145

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Was there ever loco hauled trains into Marylebone during the WCML electrification diverted from Bletchley via Oxford or via Aylesbury?
 

RT4038

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Was there ever loco hauled trains into Marylebone during the WCML electrification diverted from Bletchley via Oxford or via Aylesbury?

Yes there was. via Bletchley and Claydon LNE Junction I believe. It was only arrivals of southbound overnight sleeping car trains though. I guess the normal line was kept open for the northbound departures (up to midnight) and then closed for electrification work. My 1964/5 timetable shows 3 weekday and 5 Sunday arrivals between 04h35 and 06h15. Never saw one, nor a photo, so no idea what type of loco ! Some other arrivals went to Kensington Olympia. [I remember as a young boy arriving at Kensington Olympia on one of these trains early on a Sunday morning - behind a Cl. 40] and another to St. Pancras.
 

Whistler40145

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Yes there was. via Bletchley and Claydon LNE Junction I believe. It was only arrivals of southbound overnight sleeping car trains though. I guess the normal line was kept open for the northbound departures (up to midnight) and then closed for electrification work. My 1964/5 timetable shows 3 weekday and 5 Sunday arrivals between 04h35 and 06h15. Never saw one, nor a photo, so no idea what type of loco ! Some other arrivals went to Kensington Olympia. [I remember as a young boy arriving at Kensington Olympia on one of these trains early on a Sunday morning - behind a Cl. 40] and another to St. Pancras.
Thank you
 

Taunton

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Neasden depot was actually under Willesden's management at the end of loco workings, and various locos steam and diesel used to be sent round both ways. A bit of a convoluted run indeed. There were indeed what later became Class 24 used, and pictures of them appeared in the magazines, on passenger, and also parcels trains, which seemed to survive to the end.
 

RT4038

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Indeed, I wonder if Neasden Curve was used?

I would guess: around the Wembley Stadium loop, up the curve to the Dudding Hill line and along to Acton Wells Junction, reverse, along the North London line through the Willesden Junction High level, reverse again and down the line alongside the New Station ? Would seem to take up quite a bit of track capacity fiddling about with that!
 

Andy R. A.

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I'm looking at a photo in the July 1964 Railway Magazine, showing class 40 D317 passing milepost 33 south of Wendover. It says it is on a Liverpool to Marylebone (diverted ?) 'Empress Voyager' Express. It has an old style Train Reporting number board with paper stickers on it, showing it to be 1X22.
 

Whistler40145

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I would guess: around the Wembley Stadium loop, up the curve to the Dudding Hill line and along to Acton Wells Junction, reverse, along the North London line through the Willesden Junction High level, reverse again and down the line alongside the New Station ? Would seem to take up quite a bit of track capacity fiddling about with that!
Unfortunately, I'm not old enough to remember the Wembley Stadium loop
 

Arglwydd Golau

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Aside from the DMU working mentioned above, the remaining trains to Marylebone from north of Aylesbury were booked for Steam, but Cl. 24 diesels did substitute for failures (indeed D5000 worked the 14h38 from Marylebone on the last day)..

Yes, there is a photo of this working in a book I have just read about the last few years of the Great Central, it was indeed covering for a failure of a Black 5 on the up working. (Incidentally I must have passed this northbound working as Dad and I were on the 'Great Central railtour that day - returning south from Penistone ,Sheffield and Nottingham Victoria)
 

Bevan Price

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I'm looking at a photo in the July 1964 Railway Magazine, showing class 40 D317 passing milepost 33 south of Wendover. It says it is on a Liverpool to Marylebone (diverted ?) 'Empress Voyager' Express. It has an old style Train Reporting number board with paper stickers on it, showing it to be 1X22.

One of the problems with Marylebone was that most of the platforms were probably a bit short to cater for typical WCML train lengths, so passengers in rear coaches may have had to walk through several coaches before they could alight onto a platform.
I think Kensington Olympia was preferred for diversions when that option was available.
 

Whistler40145

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One of the problems with Marylebone was that most of the platforms were probably a bit short to cater for typical WCML train lengths, so passengers in rear coaches may have had to walk through several coaches before they could alight onto a platform.
I think Kensington Olympia was preferred for diversions when that option was available.
Presumably locos could easily run round at Kensington Olympia?
 

Andy R. A.

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One of the problems with Marylebone was that most of the platforms were probably a bit short to cater for typical WCML train lengths, so passengers in rear coaches may have had to walk through several coaches before they could alight onto a platform.
I think Kensington Olympia was preferred for diversions when that option was available.

Quite so, although the photo I was looking at only shows the first seven coaches of the train coming under a bridge, but passing Wendover would almost certainly have put this train heading into Marylebone. Some of the diversions into Kensington used the GW/GC joint line from Grendon Underwood Junction via High Wycombe, Greenford Loop, Acton, Willesden SW and into Kensington.
I seem to recall there were a number of 'Starlight Specials' and one long distance Parcels service that started out of Marylebone in the early to mid 1960s while the West Coast Electrification work was being carried out.

From my own records on Saturday 27.01.79 the 04:05 Bletchley to Euston brought the wires down at Tring South Junction, blocking all four lines. That particular night 1M16, the Inverness and Fort William Sleeper, was running in two sections after the Fort William portion was heavily delayed by snow. The Inverness portion (7 coaches) was also running late, and was diverted via Birmingham New Street, Banbury, and High Wycombe into Marylebone. It was headed by a 47 (unfortunately didn't have the number). A 25 was sent over from Willesden and the 'top n tailed' formation went out to Neasden South Junction (reverse), Acton Canal Wharf Junction (reverse), and into Willesden via the Low Level Goods Lines.
 

Andy R. A.

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Presumably locos could easily run round at Kensington Olympia?

The track layout has been much simplified in more recent times, but when the Euston Diversions were in force there were still two through roads in use for cross London Freight workings, and there weren't as many passenger workings as there are now. So running round trains wasn't a problem.
 

Whistler40145

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The track layout has been much simplified in more recent times, but when the Euston Diversions were in force there were still two through roads in use for cross London Freight workings, and there weren't as many passenger workings as there are now. So running round trains wasn't a problem.
Thank you
 

RT4038

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I'm looking at a photo in the July 1964 Railway Magazine, showing class 40 D317 passing milepost 33 south of Wendover. It says it is on a Liverpool to Marylebone (diverted ?) 'Empress Voyager' Express. It has an old style Train Reporting number board with paper stickers on it, showing it to be 1X22.

Quite a splendid thought!
 

Taunton

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I'm looking at a photo in the July 1964 Railway Magazine, showing class 40 D317 passing milepost 33 south of Wendover. It says it is on a Liverpool to Marylebone (diverted ?) 'Empress Voyager' Express. It has an old style Train Reporting number board with paper stickers on it, showing it to be 1X22.
With a 1X number that is a special, and with such a name is likely to be an ocean liner train from Liverpool Riverside to London. In 1964 the Canadian Pacific shipping company was still running their several white-painted Empress-named ocean liners, on the principal UK sea route to Canada, from Liverpool once every week, and Riverside station alongside the ships was still in use then for connecting special trains to London, joining the main line at Edge Hill. As such, any issue with capacity at Euston, which was right in the throes of rebuilding, would be known, and the special was likely organised and advertised to Marylebone. These trains typically had large amounts of passenger luggage, which would have been doubly inconvenient at Euston to pick through the works, though I wonder how long they all had to wait at the little and obscure cab rank at Marylebone.
 

111-111-1

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November 1983 after the sleepers de-railed at Paddington the Paddington - Banbury via Wycombe service was diverted to Marylebone for a short time.
 

jfisher21

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I remember the dmu shortage at Marylebone in the early 90s just before the current trains came in. I remember catching a loco hauled train from Harrow on the Hill to Chorleywood! Did not get the number unfortunately.
 

70014IronDuke

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It was not all steam north of Aylesbury. In the last year or two, there was one round trip booked for a Class 115 DMU from Marylebone to Nottingham Victoria and back. ...

I think this DMU working started very soon after those 4-car units arrived for the Marylebone commuter workings. At least, I 'think' I remember seeing one train over the GC girder bridge from Rugby Midland in 1962, possibly even 1961.

The trains were the 08.48 (or so) Marylebone - Nott and the 12.48 Nott - Marylebone. Presumably a manager realised that they had a four-car unit in Marylebone after an up peak hour working that was not needed until the evening peak - so why not use it on a long-distance working. Much cheaper than a steam turn.
 

RT4038

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I think this DMU working started very soon after those 4-car units arrived for the Marylebone commuter workings. At least, I 'think' I remember seeing one train over the GC girder bridge from Rugby Midland in 1962, possibly even 1961.

The trains were the 08.48 (or so) Marylebone - Nott and the 12.48 Nott - Marylebone. Presumably a manager realised that they had a four-car unit in Marylebone after an up peak hour working that was not needed until the evening peak - so why not use it on a long-distance working. Much cheaper than a steam turn.

8.38 Marylebone-Nott, 12.15 return. As a young boy, I well remember a trip on this train from Marylebone to Nottingham V - the disappointment of my Dad that it was a DMU and not one of the Royal Scots that were usually hauling the semi-fast trains of the time. There are various photos published of this working.
 

Bevan Price

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8.38 Marylebone-Nott, 12.15 return. As a young boy, I well remember a trip on this train from Marylebone to Nottingham V - the disappointment of my Dad that it was a DMU and not one of the Royal Scots that were usually hauling the semi-fast trains of the time. There are various photos published of this working.

That turn was still steam in Summer 1962, when I made my first trip over the GC line south of Nottingham.
 
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