The continental approach to Safety

Dixie · 29 Mar 2020

Whilst working today I watched a Slovenian cab ride. It was an 1800 ore ton train, pulled by a pair of Taurus type locos along a single track main line with a line speed of 50 mph. Here are 3 photos from it of:

A level crossing - no barriers.
A station - platforms with barely any room to stand and access by crossing the tracks.
A person and a child working outside of their allotment alongside the track, with no fences other than some chicken wire around the allotment. Generally there are no fences along side Slovenian tracks.

Just to illustrate how different their attitude to railways is.

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Bletchleyite · 29 Mar 2020

The yellow lines on that platform are entertaining.

The idea of that layout, though, is that you don't go over to the middle platform until the train has arrived.

Dixie · 29 Mar 2020

Not much room for tubby people!

yorkie · 29 Mar 2020

The continental approach is generally quite sensible, with people taking responsibility for themselves.

Lucan · 29 Mar 2020

I'm wondering if, by UK standards, the yellow line on the left must be stood behind by people waiting for trains on the right, and the yellow line on the right must be stood behind by people waiting for trains on the left.

yorkie · 29 Mar 2020

Lucan said:
I'm wondering if, by UK standards, the yellow line on the left must be stood behind by people waiting for trains on the right, and the yellow line on the right must be stood behind by people waiting for trains on the left.

I refer you to post #2:

Bletchleyite said:
The idea of that layout, though, is that you don't go over to the middle platform until the train has arrived.

UK Standards don't apply on the continent, which makes travelling by rail in places like the Czech Republic (where I've been several times now) so much more interesting and relaxing than in the UK.

snookertam · 29 Mar 2020

I've always been quite disdainful of British exceptionalism wherever it rears its head but I've often wondered that railways here are the safest for good reason. I don't think anything in the picture is necessarily that unsafe if, as pointed out, people take responsibility for themselves. However when it involves a train then if someone is hit then it also affects the driver - is it appropriate to assume people will always be responsible? Open level crossings were common place on the far north line until recently, however too many fatal accidents have put paid to them. One at Nigg near Fearn, and another at Halkirk near Georgemas spring to mind, where car occupants were killed because they didn't realise a train was coming, despite the presence of lights.

On wider railway safety, I have wondered about accidents happening on the continent that I found difficult to imagine happening on Britain. I'm thinking particularly about the Spanish AVE derailment in Galicia where the train didn't break for a tight cuve in time, and a head on collision in Bavaria caused by a signaller not paying attention. Neither incident didn't strike me as the railway being failsafe, both incidents appeared to be impossible through human error alone, and would take serious & catastrophic wrong side failuresto happen here

I could be mistaken there but that was my impression - does anyone agree?

yorkie · 29 Mar 2020

snookertam said:
....I'm thinking particularly about the Spanish AVE derailment in Galicia where the train didn't break for a tight cuve in time, and a head on collision in Bavaria caused by a signaller not paying attention....

I don't think they are comparable to the sort of issue that is being discussed in this thread, which is more about general facilities provided and the general public being responsible for their own actions.

snookertam · 29 Mar 2020

yorkie said:
I don't think they are comparable to the sort of issue that is being discussed in this thread, which is more about general facilities provided and the general public being responsible for their own actions.

Fair enough I'd take your point there, but I suppose if you place it in the context of the amount of effort that goes into factoring out human error in causing accidents and serious incidents, and is maybe indicative of a certain attitude here. Whether that's a wider H&S culture that exists, or particular bad experiences in the railway over the years - many of the safety features on the railway are in response to accidents down there years, as I'm sure you probably know - I'm not sure what has created such an apparent difference of approach.

colchesterken · 29 Mar 2020

I was on holiday in Spain. cannot remember the exact place but there were several bays on the beach linked by the railway tunnel,
it was single track must have been double in the past, there would have been room to stand close to the wall but people seemed to wait for a train to pass then walk through,

rg177 · 29 Mar 2020

As has been said, the slipways masquerading as platforms are pretty common in Central Europe (and some pockets exist in Germany/Austria).

They're not meant to be stood on for long periods, though they can be quite difficult to see from a high up train and I have previously jumped off on the wrong side in Slovakia. Driver wasn't bothered, I just stood on the slipway further back, gave him a thumbs up that I was safely back enough, and once it had moved, stationmaster was completely unfazed by my appearance from behind a train :lol:

Bletchleyite · 29 Mar 2020

yorkie said:
UK Standards don't apply on the continent, which makes travelling by rail in places like the Czech Republic (where I've been several times now) so much more interesting and relaxing than in the UK.

Oh, I know. They've changed things around a bit now with such oddities as smartphone app based dispatch, but SBB's curiously unsafe dispatch procedure always stood out (with its assumption that once the whistle goes nobody will do anything stupid even inadvertently). Many would think Switzerland would be H&S obsessive, but it's anything but. It's so much of an outlier that it took me many weeks of travel to work it out.

Roughly, it was:
- Guard blows whistle
- Guard operates box on platform, which gives RA to the driver after a time delay of a few seconds
- Guard returns to train, operates key to close other doors, has a quick look and closes his own door. The quality of this look varies, I on many occasions saw trains go out with doors open if someone had put their foot in at the wrong second, or the guard reboarding and not operating the close at all on one notable occasion (the doors close automatically on SBB stock on reaching 5km/h when the UIC door blocking kicks in). Notably the guard does not have any way, other than going into the saloon and pulling the emergency brake, of stopping the train at that point.
- Train departs, whether someone is stuck in the door or not

Bletchleyite · 29 Mar 2020

rg177 said:
As has been said, the slipways masquerading as platforms are pretty common in Central Europe (and some pockets exist in Germany/Austria).

They're not meant to be stood on for long periods, though they can be quite difficult to see from a high up train and I have previously jumped off on the wrong side in Slovakia. Driver wasn't bothered, I just stood on the slipway further back, gave him a thumbs up that I was safely back enough, and once it had moved, stationmaster was completely unfazed by my appearance from behind a train

That arrangement in Germany is known as "Hausbahnsteig" - house platform - the main one by the building, and "Nebenbahnsteig" - side platform - the little one.

There are a few not dissimilar examples in the UK, most notably on the Cumbrian Coast (the Furness Railway liked that arrangement) but they are at least full height platforms!

Germany is moving away from them, many such stations have been converted to a regular side platform or island arrangement.

30907 · 29 Mar 2020

Bletchleyite said:
That arrangement in Germany is known as "Hausbahnsteig" - house platform - the main one by the building, and "Nebenbahnsteig" - side platform - the little one.
Germany is moving away from them, many such stations have been converted to a regular side platform or island arrangement.

Surviving ones in Germany that I've seen have been rebuilt (pre reunification I would guess) with much wider side platforms AND a barrier preventing access.
The really narrow ones are disappearing gradually across Central Europe, though I've recently been to a couple on the Rhaetian system in Switzerland: Guarda and Alp Gruem, and there are certainly others.
As well as the safety aspect, there's issues of accessibility and staffing.

Bletchleyite · 29 Mar 2020

30907 said:
The really narrow ones are disappearing gradually across Central Europe, though I've recently been to a couple on the Rhaetian system in Switzerland: Guarda and Alp Gruem, and there are certainly others.

The Swiss narrow gauge lines are basically treated as tramways in H&S terms, and so smaller platforms and walking all over the track are perfectly acceptable behaviour.

dm1 · 2 Apr 2020

In Switzerland there is no legal distinction between a railway and a tramway. It's other factors like speed and signaling etc that determine the regulations.

That's a reason there are a lot of rail-based routes that don't fit cleanly into one category or the other. (Is the Forchbahn a tram route or a train route, for example?)

Bletchleyite · 2 Apr 2020

dm1 said:
In Switzerland there is no legal distinction between a railway and a tramway. It's other factors like speed and signaling etc that determine the regulations.

That's a reason there are a lot of rail-based routes that don't fit cleanly into one category or the other. (Is the Forchbahn a tram route or a train route, for example?)

It's a bit of a Metrolink-esque hybrid, no?

duesselmartin · 3 Apr 2020

There is not continental approach to anything.
The system in Greece is operated to different standards to that of Denmark.
Portugal has a different approach to Slovakia.
The continent is neither a country nor is it one system.

Martin

43096 · 3 Apr 2020

duesselmartin said:
There is not continental approach to anything.
The system in Greece is operated to different standards to that of Denmark.
Portugal has a different approach to Slovakia.
The continent is neither a country nor is it one system.

Martin

Thank you for pointing that out: it’s a bit “not invented here” or “somewhere foreign” to just refer to Europe as one country.

Meerkat · 3 Apr 2020

duesselmartin said:
There is not continental approach to anything.

It’s a valid term if the varied continental systems are almost all less safety conscious than ours.

AM9 · 3 Apr 2020

rg177 said:
As has been said, the slipways masquerading as platforms are pretty common in Central Europe (and some pockets exist in Germany/Austria).

They're not meant to be stood on for long periods, though they can be quite difficult to see from a high up train and I have previously jumped off on the wrong side in Slovakia. Driver wasn't bothered, I just stood on the slipway further back, gave him a thumbs up that I was safely back enough, and once it had moved, stationmaster was completely unfazed by my appearance from behind a train

Yup. I used Varenna station on Lake Como. Here's a picture showing the layout with a train arriving at/departing from a crowded island platform:

It wasn't that crowded when I was there but as the station is connected with the outside world by single track tunnels both north and south, it is unlikely that there'll be any fast trains whipping through using it as a passing loop.

Bletchleyite · 3 Apr 2020

AM9 said:
It wasn't that crowded when I was there but as the station is connected with the outside world by single track tunnels both north and south, it is unlikely that there'll be any fast trains whipping through using it as a passing loop.

And if they were going to, the stopping train would be signalled into the "Hausbahnsteig" and the fast train would pass the smaller "Nebenbahnsteig". You don't have to keep left (or right depending on the country). This even happens in the UK to an extent - on some of the Scottish long single-track lines trains always use the main platform with the building unless another is going to be there at the same time.

EAD · 3 Apr 2020

Meerkat said:
It’s a valid term if the varied continental systems are almost all less safety conscious than ours.

I think a couple of things are being conflated here.

Firstly, there is a UK way of doing things which originates in the laws of the land and way the railways interacted with them on introduction, such as trespass. That is why they are all fenced off - this is not the way many other parts of he world see it except where there is an obvious danger - if you like the UK logic is you must keep things from being able to enter railway land and are liable if you don't, while other countries legally work on it being your responsibility to not enter railway land [I have simplified it of course and e.g. it is mutually beneficial to fence of say high speed lines].

The second limb is whether there is a way of operating that is less safe. That is always going to be subjective to a degree - you know what you know, but again it will vary between countries. I agree the UK has made a big push in terms of safety culture and operation as the objective stats regularly attest to which is to be welcomed. However, let's not forget some things that may seem odd from one perspective are baked in e.g. loading gauge impacts platform heights/approach (compare below and above solebar UK to UIC loading gauges). Also there was a lag in terms of on train signalling aids on our main routes before AWS was bolstered by TPWS.

Bikeman78 · 30 Apr 2020

Bletchleyite said:
Oh, I know. They've changed things around a bit now with such oddities as smartphone app based dispatch, but SBB's curiously unsafe dispatch procedure always stood out (with its assumption that once the whistle goes nobody will do anything stupid even inadvertently). Many would think Switzerland would be H&S obsessive, but it's anything but. It's so much of an outlier that it took me many weeks of travel to work it out.

Roughly, it was:
- Guard blows whistle
- Guard operates box on platform, which gives RA to the driver after a time delay of a few seconds
- Guard returns to train, operates key to close other doors, has a quick look and closes his own door. The quality of this look varies, I on many occasions saw trains go out with doors open if someone had put their foot in at the wrong second, or the guard reboarding and not operating the close at all on one notable occasion (the doors close automatically on SBB stock on reaching 5km/h when the UIC door blocking kicks in). Notably the guard does not have any way, other than going into the saloon and pulling the emergency brake, of stopping the train at that point.
- Train departs, whether someone is stuck in the door or not

Back in the day I recall a Dutch intercity train pulling out of Eindhoven with a passenger's rucksack jammed in the front set of doors. No idea how that happened because the driver would look out of the cab door and watch for the right away from the guard. The same stock is still in use from Amsterdam to Breda and Den Haag to Eindhoven. I wonder if it has door interlock now? Also the doors used to release on both sides. Shortly after Antwerpen Centraal was rebuilt, several British tourists managed to get off the Benelux train on the wrong side.

Turning to level crossings, I was once on a Belgian train that ran over a level crossing barrier near Gent on the way to Geraardsbergen. The train was braking for the station anyway. The loco ran over the barrier which then got stuck under the first carriage. The driver got out, pulled the barrier out and flung it onto the verge, then got back in the cab and carried on. When we returned an hour later, nothing had changed. No police, crossing working normally except for the missing barrier and trains running normally.

jopsuk · 30 Apr 2020

Bletchleyite said:
And if they were going to, the stopping train would be signalled into the "Hausbahnsteig" and the fast train would pass the smaller "Nebenbahnsteig". You don't have to keep left (or right depending on the country). This even happens in the UK to an extent - on some of the Scottish long single-track lines trains always use the main platform with the building unless another is going to be there at the same time.

This is certainly the case at Dullingham on the Cambridge-Newmarket line

DanielB · 1 May 2020

Bikeman78 said:
Back in the day I recall a Dutch intercity train pulling out of Eindhoven with a passenger's rucksack jammed in the front set of doors. No idea how that happened because the driver would look out of the cab door and watch for the right away from the guard. The same stock is still in use from Amsterdam to Breda and Den Haag to Eindhoven. I wonder if it has door interlock now? Also the doors used to release on both sides. Shortly after Antwerpen Centraal was rebuilt, several British tourists managed to get off the Benelux train on the wrong side.

The type ICR carriages used to have an UIC-type door closing mechanism which is only closing (and not locking) the doors at a speed of more than 5 km/h. Responsibility for seeing someone or something being trapped between the doors was with the guard, who had to signal the driver that the doors were closed and the train could depart.
As the UIC door closing automatically opens the doors below 5 km/h it indeed was possible to open the doors on the wrong side. However this could be prevented by the guard by inserting his square key into the control box near the doors, for example when the train would make an unplanned stop on the main line.

These carriages were later modified for operation on the high speed line. Among other changes this also involved installation of a door interlocking circuit. The driver now has to get a green light in his cab indicating doors are closed and locked prior to departure, and the carriages are operated as trainsets now as for obvious reasons the carriages that connect the circuit to the locomotive have to be at the front and rear of the set of carriages.
Carriages used for the services to Brussels were modified later as only the UIC mechanism was allowed in Belgium. Trainset mode was allowed for operation to Belgium at a later date, as of which the trains were also rerouted via the high speed line in The Netherlands.

At this moment the only carriages that are still operated with UIC door closing in The Netherlands are the DB-carriages used in the Intercity from Amsterdam to Berlin, however these have been equipped with so called TB0. This TB0 is only unlocking the doors when the speed is 0 km/h.

Bletchleyite · 1 May 2020

There are 2 control mechanisms on UIC doors - door blocking (Tuerblockierung, which is what the TB in TB0 refers to) and closing pressure. The former kicks in above 5km/h and mechanically disconnects the inside handle (but NOT the outside one) but does not trigger any closure if doors are already open. The latter provides air pressure to close the doors when the UIC key is turned, other than the door the key was turned at. The air typically leaks away within 30 seconds or so and the door could open again if the train hadn't gone above 5km/5 by then.

If I recall correctly TB0 is a mod which allows closing pressure to remain (or be automatically replenished, I forget) once the doors have been closed until the driver presses a button to release it. It still releases on both sides of that type of coach.

The Swiss did a different mod to their coaches which caused closing pressure to be applied periodically (about once every 30 seconds I think) in addition to door blocking once above 5km/h. This has the downside that if it happens just before you stop you can't open the doors until it's leaked away again. This means that if, due to the rather lacking SBB dispatch procedure, a train goes out with doors open, they will at least all be closed after a short period automatically. All the "slamdoor" coaches were further modified so that the UIC folding door is opened and closed by an electric motor, but the problem still occurs. I don't know if this aspect is automatic above 5km/h or driver controlled, I *think* the former.

It was indeed usual DB practice for the guard to stand by a set of doors and keep turning the key in the event of a signal stop to prevent anyone opening doors. However, anyone who thinks Germans are really compliant might be surprised to note, in my experience, that it was pretty common to hear at least one loud slam the first time this was done as people had opened doors to look out and see what was going on - and that on stock with full droplights!

swissrailpassion · 1 May 2020

The crossing in the OP does have half barriers.
You can still see trains moving off with doors closing as described above in Italy, Romania, France, Switzerland etc. As stock is modernised this will disappear.
The Swiss have introduced grants for station conversion to the new standards for disabled access. Larger stations on the RhB have been rebuilt with subways. The most dramatic rebuilds are on the MOB with lavish stations and wide platforms with canopies at Montbovon and Chateau d'Oex
A huge station rebuild is underway at Andermatt on the MGB.
Things are changing in Czechia too - google Smrzovka to see a classic small junction station rebuilt.
Take a look at YouTube for some wonderful Romanian videos of wayside halts and ancient practices preserved but with modern stock. It's all very relaxed there and rail travel is a gentle pleasure. Modernisations are proceeding rather slowly in Romania but the new island platforms are replacing traditional layouts as lines are upgraded. Sinaia is a good example.

Train jaune · 2 May 2020

I worry about the trade offs between safety on the railway and more general public safety. If the railway enforces certain standards, that are very costly, ticket prices rise to pay for them and people then take the economic choice of moving to less safe transport options. Does that mean we've improved public safety? Comparisons with less wealthy countries in eastern Europe may not be optimal but I've travelled lots in Germany were unfenced mainline railways in the countryside are common. No wonder reopening a railway in Britain is so expensive with all that steel security fencing, footbridges and lifts.

Peter Kelford · 2 May 2020

If you go to Lyon Part-Dieu, there are large signs saying 'Do not walk across the tracks - use the underpass'. People still do it though as the height from track to the platform is about the size of an ordinary step on a staircase. Around Albertville (single track semi-mainline), there's a level crossing with a barrier, but no fences around the barrier - i.e. pedestrians could easily walk around the barrier.

The continental approach to Safety

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