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German Railways - Lineside Signs.

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dave55uk

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I tend to watch a lot of cab ride videos, and on the German ones, I often see yellow V and upside-down V signs, always in close proximity to each other, and for the life of me, I cannot work out what they mean.

Can anyone enlighten me please?
 
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LNW-GW Joint

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My travels in Germany became a whole lot more interesting when I discovered that the strange diamond signs with numbers on at trackside were the speed limits.
They have a clever code which knocks off the trailing zero from the km/h speed limit, so a diamond sign with 10 on it = 100 km/h and 16 = 160 km/h.
Some other countries follow much the same pattern.
Life gets tedious is Poland when you spot a "5" or even a "3" in open country - you are in for an extended crawl!

It also means the speed limits are always multiples of 10 km/h.
Imagine NR with no speed limits ending in "5" mph - 75mph being a very common limit, or even 125mph.
Interesting that our road network only uses speeds in multiples of 10mph - the US uses multiples of 5mph, 55mph having been very common, 75mph on interstates.
 

hexagon789

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My travels in Germany became a whole lot more interesting when I discovered that the strange diamond signs with numbers on at trackside were the speed limits.
They have a clever code which knocks off the trailing zero from the km/h speed limit, so a diamond sign with 10 on it = 100 km/h and 16 = 160 km/h.
Some other countries follow much the same pattern.
Life gets tedious is Poland when you spot a "5" or even a "3" in open country - you are in for an extended crawl!

It also means the speed limits are always multiples of 10 km/h.
Imagine NR with no speed limits ending in "5" mph - 75mph being a very common limit, or even 125mph.
Interesting that our road network only uses speeds in multiples of 10mph - the US uses multiples of 5mph, 55mph having been very common, 75mph on interstates.

I'm sure multiples of 5 do exist in Germany, but I can't remember what the signs look like exactly.
 

MarcVD

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Belgium follows the same principle.
Green triangle board with white digits = speed increase
Yellow inverted triangle board with black digits = warning of speed restriction
White rectangular board with black digits = execution of speed restriction
Speed indicated in ten km values, i.e. last zero omitted
There are usually no speed indications that depend on the type of rolling stock.
 

DanielB

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This principle also applies to The Netherlands, with some exceptions.
Exception 1: a speed limit of 5 km/h exists (indicated by a white rectangular board with black digits 05, with 5 written in superscript), usually found near special equipment like a train washing machine.
Exception 2: near bridges or tunnels speed indications for cargo trains only may exist. Signs are the same, except the digits indicating the maximum speed are written inside a C.
 

rf_ioliver

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They have a clever code which knocks off the trailing zero from the km/h speed limit, so a diamond sign with 10 on it = 100 km/h and 16 = 160 km/h.
Some other countries follow much the same pattern.
Life gets tedious is Poland when you spot a "5" or even a "3" in open country - you are in for an extended crawl!

Finland uses the same idea: https://fi.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suomen_rautateiden_merkit_ja_opasteet - look for the section:
Nopeusmerkit (alkaen Jt1996) (Speed signs, (starting 1996))
 

30907

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I'm sure multiples of 5 do exist in Germany, but I can't remember what the signs look like exactly.
For a TSR it is shown, very logically, as 0,5 - pretty rare, but if you have a really knackered bit of pointwork you might need it. After that it goes in 10km/h steps only, according to the semi-official "Signale der deutschen Bahn" (Gera Mond); same applies to the permitted speed signs incorporated into running signals.
 

hexagon789

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For a TSR it is shown, very logically, as 0,5 - pretty rare, but if you have a really knackered bit of pointwork you might need it. After that it goes in 10km/h steps only, according to the semi-official "Signale der deutschen Bahn" (Gera Mond); same applies to the permitted speed signs incorporated into running signals.

Perhaps I'm thinking of Austria then? I know for a fact France, Italy and Switzerland all do multiples of 5, so if it wasn't Germany I was additionally thinking of I think it might have been Austria.

(Watch me get this wrong, again!)
 

30907

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Perhaps I'm thinking of Austria then?
(Watch me get this wrong, again!)

No, you're right! I'm only familiar with DB so I've learnt something.
https://de.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eisenbahnsignale_in_Österreich
Under "Geschwindigkeitstafel" (permanent speed restriction board) it says up to 100 in 5km/h steps, thereafter 10km/h up to 160, beyond which LZB onboard does the job.
This image shows that the 5 is superscript, as in NL etc.
http://www.loksim3d.de/sites/loksim3d.de/files/2016-03/OeBB-Signal-DV_V2-Version1_0.jpg
BTW I can't find anything about .5 TSRs (Langsamfahrstellen) though, which is the opposite to Germany.
 

Taunton

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It also means the speed limits are always multiples of 10 km/h.
Imagine NR with no speed limits ending in "5" mph -
As kilometres are not far off half what miles are, the two approaches end up pretty similar ...
 

30907

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As kilometres are not far off half what miles are, the two approaches end up pretty similar ...
Indeed, and a La 0,5 on DB is a 3mph TSR here...
OT: wasn't the old throat at KGX 8mph? Presumably the ER Chief Civil Engineer wouldn't risk 10, but I don't recall any other location which wasn't a multiple of 5.
 

hexagon789

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No, you're right! I'm only familiar with DB so I've learnt something.
https://de.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eisenbahnsignale_in_Österreich
Under "Geschwindigkeitstafel" (permanent speed restriction board) it says up to 100 in 5km/h steps, thereafter 10km/h up to 160, beyond which LZB onboard does the job.
This image shows that the 5 is superscript, as in NL etc.
http://www.loksim3d.de/sites/loksim3d.de/files/2016-03/OeBB-Signal-DV_V2-Version1_0.jpg
BTW I can't find anything about .5 TSRs (Langsamfahrstellen) though, which is the opposite to Germany.

So a sort of compromise in that you only gets "5s" under 100km/h.

The Netherlands is also blocks of 10 then? I ask as the national maximum permitted speed was once 125km/h, presumably given significant upgrading this speed limit no longer exists.
 

biko

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So a sort of compromise in that you only gets "5s" under 100km/h.

The Netherlands is also blocks of 10 then? I ask as the national maximum permitted speed was once 125km/h, presumably given significant upgrading this speed limit no longer exists.
There are still speeds of 125 km/h and these are shown as 12 with a superscript 5 next to it, or with a speed sign without a number in it. But as far I can find online, a maximum permitted speed of 125 km/h is becoming rare.
 

DanielB

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There are still speeds of 125 km/h and these are shown as 12 with a superscript 5 next to it, or with a speed sign without a number in it. But as far I can find online, a maximum permitted speed of 125 km/h is becoming rare.
The maximum speed of 125 km/h is mainly something from the past, when most trains were not able to run much faster than 125 km/h. This was increased to 140 km/h already in the seventies, when faster trains became available.
Since then the maximum speeds have gradually been changed to the current situation with 130 km/h and 140 km/h being the most common speed limits. Both speeds are also guarded by the ATB security system, which is no coincidence but a concious choice to improve safety.

The 125 km/h limit nowadays only exists between Hengelo and Oldenzaal / Enschede and between Nijmegen and Venlo, along with some cross-border routes
 

hexagon789

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There are still speeds of 125 km/h and these are shown as 12 with a superscript 5 next to it, or with a speed sign without a number in it. But as far I can find online, a maximum permitted speed of 125 km/h is becoming rare.

Thanks for the information.
 

axlecounter

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Perhaps I'm thinking of Austria then? I know for a fact France, Italy and Switzerland all do multiples of 5, so if it wasn't Germany I was additionally thinking of I think it might have been Austria.

(Watch me get this wrong, again!)

Switzerland has only multiples of 10 for TSRs. PSR are 5s but unlike other countries in this very basic form:
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/d2/Panneaux_vitesse_suisse.png

(A different sign is used for tilting trains though).

In Italy I've always seen the same but I can't say for sure..
 

axlecounter

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By the way, Italy’s speed boards are (unless other countries do it) somehow peculiar in that with a PSR the driver sees 1) a first warning board with the speeds 2) a second similar board 3) the PSR speed change board..... and THEN, after a braking distance, the real speed variation point follows!
 

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hexagon789

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Switzerland has only multiples of 10 for TSRs. PSR are 5s but unlike other countries in this very basic form:
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/d2/Panneaux_vitesse_suisse.png

(A different sign is used for tilting trains though).

In Italy I've always seen the same but I can't say for sure..
By the way, Italy’s speed boards are (unless other countries do it) somehow peculiar in that with a PSR the driver sees 1) a first warning board with the speeds 2) a second similar board 3) the PSR speed change board..... and THEN, after a braking distance, the real speed variation point follows!

I remember watching Video 125's TGV Turin-Chambéry video and thinking how over the top thee signage seemed! Though I suppose at least it means drivers have fair warning if the miss the first board for some reason, but they also have a printout of all the permitted speeds in front of them anyway.

This video is how I know Italian railways work to 5km/h as not only is the linespeed Turin-the Fréjus tunnel 155km/h, there are many PSRs of 105 or 115 km/h.
 

LNW-GW Joint

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Presumably the three speeds are for freight, passenger and tilt?
Or some similar distinction.
The top one (lowest speed) seems to be in a slightly larger point size, too.

It's always interesting crossing borders and noticing the different signage and infrastructure standards (eg signalling and OHLE structures).
The km often resets as well (not always, but the type of sign will change).
 

hexagon789

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Presumably the three speeds are for freight, passenger and tilt?
Or some similar distinction.
The top one (lowest speed) seems to be in a slightly larger point size, too.

It's always interesting crossing borders and noticing the different signage and infrastructure standards (eg signalling and OHLE structures).
The km often resets as well (not always, but the type of sign will change).

They are based on services deceleration

There are 4 categories A, B, C and P.

The trackside signs only show up to C, post speeds are only identified in drivers paperwork.

For the signs with 3 numbers, they are arranged with Category A at the top, B in the middle, C at the bottom.

A is based on a deceleration of 0.6m/s/s
B on 0.8m/s/s
C on 1.2m/s/s

P is I believe reserved for things such as tilting trains.
 

axlecounter

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P is tilting trains only.

A good reason for the two warnings and additional safety distance is that up until 2003, although two-manned, trains didn't have any safety device on board whatsoever (unless you consider RSC, but that was not its purpose and it didn't protect against for example speed variations*)

* not totally true, I know, but it's complicated!
 

hexagon789

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P is tilting trains only.

A good reason for the two warnings and additional safety distance is that up until 2003, although two-manned, trains didn't have any safety device on board whatsoever (unless you consider RSC, but that was not its purpose and it didn't protect against for example speed variations*)

* not totally true, I know, but it's complicated!

The only information I could find on exactly what the different speeds applied to was in Italian and Google translate doesn't always give the full picture.

I'm sure Italy wasn't alone in having no warning systems per se in Europe, even Western Europe
 

Re 4/4

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Switzerland has only multiples of 10 for TSRs.

I think I remember seeing a TSR (orange board with flashing lights) with a ".5" once, years ago. The rules may have changed since then, of course.
 

Gordon

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The speed is shown on signals in many Swiss locations, reducing the need for lineside signs
 
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