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Mark 1 suburban coaches

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WesternLancer

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They were certainly atmospheric, particularly if you had the window down!

Here's a video taken in the mid 70's by an old schoolfriend of mine. The film runs from Barbican to Kings X via Farringdon, what became Kings X Thameslink and the Hotel Curve.


Sorry the quality isn't brilliant by today's standards and there's no sound. You can certainly see the 'atmosphere' though in the Clerkenwell Tunnels between Farringdon and Kings X!
Great to watch that - I doubt many people would have thought to film what was largely a tunnel / restricted view journey at that time. Thanks for posting

(am guessing they started the 'Thameslink 2000' planning and work soon after that :lol: )
 
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Journeyman

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Great to watch that - I doubt many people would have thought to film what was largely a tunnel / restricted view journey at that time. Thanks for posting

(am guessing they started the 'Thameslink 2000' planning and work soon after that :lol: )

Yeah, that was a fantastic piece of film - truly a vanished world recorded there.
 

341o2

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What happened with the GNR suburban electrification is that BR took over Finsbury Park - Moorgate from LUL and the Widened Lines then became redundant until further use was found for them.

Regarding the carriages, they were known as "Block Enders", Kings Cross suburban services were divided into inner, Welwyn Garden city/Hertford North to Kings Cross/Moorgate, and outer suburban, for example Stevenage, Letchworth, Baldock. The inner suburban rakes were composed of C's with a BS, and were also stabled at Hatfield, Potters Bar, Cuffley and Gordon Hill. They would make a morning peak run to Moorgate, ECS to yard such as Ferme Park, then reverse the journey for the evening peak.

The outer suburban rakes had at least a couple of carriages with gangways, toilets etc.

There was an Irish guard with a great sense of humour during the early 70's, one day he was grinning from ear to ear, he worked one of these units into Moorgate, and when one of the doors was opened, the hinges broke and the entire door fell onto the platform. So, as the unit was going to work ECS, he shoved the door into the compartment, while alerting the signalmen as to what was going on. Subsequentially, a BR official came with an "Out of Order" label, the question was where to put it
 

Merle Haggard

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My recollection equally dim, but was it that the ventilators were moved from the crown of the roof, BR stock having them pretty much top dead centre, out to the edges, possibly to gain a few inches of overall height. Not a reason for short length though.

Thank you for that confirmation. It's surprising that the two scholarly books on BR standard coaches make no mention of this (as far as I can see) even though they reproduce BR diagrams.
My reference to LMR being 57' was the just the thought that the ER 64' ones might have more throw over on curves causing the problems that Clarence Yard mentioned.
 

Bevan Price

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Not mentioned so far is the single experimental fibreglass-bodied Mark 1 suburban coach (S1000S), which spent some time on the Hayling Island branch until it closed; Wikipedia says that it is now preserved.
 

Rick1984

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How did they shunt the loco to the other end at Mooregate, as I can't imagine there was much space there?
 

WesternLancer

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Not mentioned so far is the single experimental fibreglass-bodied Mark 1 suburban coach (S1000S), which spent some time on the Hayling Island branch until it closed; Wikipedia says that it is now preserved.
yes, interesting - at East Somerset Rly it seems. Never heard of this so thanks for the mention - sounds like it went maroon c4 years ago compared with these green images
http://www.cs.rhrp.org.uk/se/CarriageInfo.asp?Ref=1107
 

Clarence Yard

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Thank you for that confirmation. It's surprising that the two scholarly books on BR standard coaches make no mention of this (as far as I can see) even though they reproduce BR diagrams.
My reference to LMR being 57' was the just the thought that the ER 64' ones might have more throw over on curves causing the problems that Clarence Yard mentioned.

The ER suburban stock was also 57' - the only ER suburban stock that was 64' was the BUT and Rolls Royce 3 car DMU sets which stayed away from the widened lines. The tunnel heights on the LMR connection to the widened lines were the primary reason for the moving of the ventilators off the crown of the roof on the LMR Metrogauge stock. It used to be a mixture of class 25 and 27 locos that worked the LMR trains before they were replaced by DMU's.

The ER locos were released at Moorgate by departure of the stock on it's next working. A similar arrangement existed at Gordon Hill when they used the up bay.
 

Merle Haggard

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The ER suburban stock was also 57' - the only ER suburban stock that was 64' was the BUT and Rolls Royce 3 car DMU sets which stayed away from the widened lines. The tunnel heights on the LMR connection to the widened lines were the primary reason for the moving of the ventilators off the crown of the roof on the LMR Metrogauge stock. It used to be a mixture of class 25 and 27 locos that worked the LMR trains before they were replaced by DMU's.

The ER locos were released at Moorgate by departure of the stock on it's next working. A similar arrangement existed at Gordon Hill when they used the up bay.

Thank you for that. My 'schoolboy error' about the ER stock - it was (as you point out) the LM and ER had 57' and the SR/WR, 64'.
 

Taunton

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Must have taken quite some work at Bedpan electrification if Mk 1 stock did not fit the tunnel roof without modification, but later 25Kv was able to be installed.

I did understand that at dieselisation in 1960 the Midland suburban line to St Pancras had full size 4-car suburban Rolls-Royce units, but for the Moorgate trains they also got a series of Cravens 2-car units on short frames, similar to the GN ones but slightly newer. These had a series of serious issues with the transmission, and I seem to recall more than one was destroyed by fire on the open line; was it the case that they had to go back from dmus to hauled stock for these trains?
 

Clarence Yard

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I think the Cravens came to Cricklewood in the early/mid 1960's from the north west, where there was a surplus. They operated with the loco hauled and on the Kentish Town-Barkings.

It was after the Sandridge fire in 1968 that the London Division of the LMR wanted rid of them. They and the loco hauled got replaced later that year by an influx of 3 car DMU's (class 116), the length restriction for LMR workings over the Widened lines being removed at the same time.
 

Merle Haggard

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Must have taken quite some work at Bedpan electrification if Mk 1 stock did not fit the tunnel roof without modification, but later 25Kv was able to be installed.

Indeed! Commuting at the time with someone from the CCE I understood that what I think is called 'slab track' was used, which replaced sleepers with continuous concrete enabling the tolerances to be much closer. All that effort to squeeze in 25kv when the extension was 3rd rail.
 

Taunton

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Indeed! Commuting at the time with someone from the CCE I understood that what I think is called 'slab track' was used, which replaced sleepers with continuous concrete enabling the tolerances to be much closer. All that effort to squeeze in 25kv when the extension was 3rd rail.
Of course, it wasn't a 3rd rail extension originally, that only came (not too many) years later when Thameslink was devised.

But I have seen it stated that there is a retrospective wish that the changeover had been located not down at Farringdon (which itself is a substitute for originally being at City Thameslink), but up in the open with multiple tracks alongside at Kentish Town.
 

Journeyman

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yes, interesting - at East Somerset Rly it seems. Never heard of this so thanks for the mention - sounds like it went maroon c4 years ago compared with these green images
http://www.cs.rhrp.org.uk/se/CarriageInfo.asp?Ref=1107

So they've painted it, then - the original green livery was the finish of the plastic, with no paint.

The underframe came from a main line Mark 1 that had its bodywork destroyed in the St. Johns accident.
 

edwin_m

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But I have seen it stated that there is a retrospective wish that the changeover had been located not down at Farringdon (which itself is a substitute for originally being at City Thameslink), but up in the open with multiple tracks alongside at Kentish Town.
It's now back at City Thameslink for northbound trains (I think). I expect the new work has provided clearances for 25kV to be extended at least as far as London Bridge, but introducing OLE amongst all the other third rail there would be electrically difficult due to earthing issues.
 

Merle Haggard

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The underframe came from a main line Mark 1 that had its bodywork destroyed in the St. Johns accident.

Indeed; a TSO that was almost new. This coach of course had buckeyes, retractable buffers and a Pullman gangway plate, but the BR standard compartment stock had screw couplings and standard buffers. The headstocks were different between the two designs, too, being straight on the screw coupled stock.

Does anyone know if it retained buckeyes etc. when it was in the Lancing works train?. I did see it on the ESR a couple of years ago, but couldn't really work out the changes although it did seem to have an unusually long screw coupling, from memory.
 

Merle Haggard

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Of course, it wasn't a 3rd rail extension originally, that only came (not too many) years later when Thameslink was devised.

Yes, the point I was making was that the piecemeal, short term, way investment was authorised by the government didn't save money...
 

Taunton

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There are some historic shots of Mk 1 suburban stock on the line in this John Betjeman 1950s BBC TV programme, around the 1 minute mark
 

WesternLancer

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There are some historic shots of Mk 1 suburban stock on the line in this John Betjeman 1950s BBC TV programme, around the 1 minute mark
and some nice internal shots from 10mins 30 ish. Great film, very atmospheric - esp ref Aldersgate!
 

Iskra

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Did any suburban coaches ever end up on long distance trains? Either as part of a portion working or as part of the full train?
 

30907

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Did any suburban coaches ever end up on long distance trains? Either as part of a portion working or as part of the full train?
Not quite long-distance, but the SR slotted them into Waterloo-Basingstoke corridor services in the mid 60s to provide additional peak seating capacity. First stop Woking, 24+ miles out. The equivalent EMU stock went further!
 

Iskra

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Not quite long-distance, but the SR slotted them into Waterloo-Basingstoke corridor services in the mid 60s to provide additional peak seating capacity. First stop Woking, 24+ miles out. The equivalent EMU stock went further!

Excellent, just the kind of information as I was looking for, thank you.

Has anyone got any Scottish examples?
 

Bevan Price

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Did any suburban coaches ever end up on long distance trains? Either as part of a portion working or as part of the full train?
Yes - some longish distances. Mainly on Summer Saturdays or ADEXes (ADvertised EXcursions) to places like Blackpool or Llandudno. These often had booked "Z" (toilet) stops at an intermediate station.
 

Iskra

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Yes - some longish distances. Mainly on Summer Saturdays or ADEXes (ADvertised EXcursions) to places like Blackpool or Llandudno. These often had booked "Z" (toilet) stops at an intermediate station.
Brilliant, thank you! Just asking so I know what I can get away with on my model railway.
 

Merle Haggard

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Did any suburban coaches ever end up on long distance trains? Either as part of a portion working or as part of the full train?

I caught an Exeter - Waterloo train at Salisbury on a rather rambling return from the IoW (last weeks of steam on the Island) and this had two green S at the front, and I travelled in one. I'm not sure whether the Exeter sets were Western or Southern then, but some S and BS moved from Southern to Western with the Devon/Cornwall regional changes. Maybe the WR were trying to get rid of them!
There was an interesting article in earlier editions of 'The Southern Way'.
 

30907

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I caught an Exeter - Waterloo train at Salisbury on a rather rambling return from the IoW (last weeks of steam on the Island) and this had two green S at the front, and I travelled in one. I'm not sure whether the Exeter sets were Western or Southern then, but some S and BS moved from Southern to Western with the Devon/Cornwall regional changes. Maybe the WR were trying to get rid of them!
There was an interesting article in earlier editions of 'The Southern Way'.
Somewhere (not on this thread, and not on the obvious Southern forums) I have read that - counter-intuitively - the ones the SR used out of Waterloo hadn't come up from the Exmouth line but elsewhere.
Slightly more on-topic: I would have expected spare non-corridor stock on timetabled summer weekend services as well as AdExes up to the mid-60s: I wonder if Kigs Cross-Skegness saw them (or at least the Lav sets)?
 

randyrippley

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I caught an Exeter - Waterloo train at Salisbury on a rather rambling return from the IoW (last weeks of steam on the Island) and this had two green S at the front, and I travelled in one. I'm not sure whether the Exeter sets were Western or Southern then, but some S and BS moved from Southern to Western with the Devon/Cornwall regional changes. Maybe the WR were trying to get rid of them!
There was an interesting article in earlier editions of 'The Southern Way'.

During Warship days most Exeter-Waterloo services had a pair of coaches added at Salisbury -at the front, that's probably what you saw.

Non-corridor stock survived on weekend steam Bristol-Weymouth services until the line was singled.
Also at Weymouth in the 1960s, the remaining spur over the bridge across Radipole lake (the old Portland line) was used for parking several rakes of green non-corridor sets, though they were SR design. Whether these were serviceable or just dumped I never knew
 
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Helvellyn

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Here's a video taken in the mid 70's by an old schoolfriend of mine. The film runs from Barbican to Kings X via Farringdon, what became Kings X Thameslink and the Hotel Curve.


Sorry the quality isn't brilliant by today's standards and there's no sound. You can certainly see the 'atmosphere' though in the Clerkenwell Tunnels between Farringdon and Kings X!
Nice to see the old platforms 12 and 13 at King's Cross - don't think I have seen pictures of them before. When BR took on the Northern City line didn't it close platforms 11-13 (although 11 was subsequently reinstated)?

Class 313s must certainly have been a step change for passengers in comparison to the Mark 1 non-corridor stock and miscellaneous DMUs. Although I remain fascinated that alongside the inner suburban PEP derived sliding door 313s (313001-313064) came the slam door 312s (312001-312026) for outer suburban services! Add in the arrival of the HSTs and the second half of the 1970s was certainly transformative for King's Cross.
 

Taunton

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Class 313s must certainly have been a step change for passengers in comparison to the Mark 1 non-corridor stock and miscellaneous DMUs.
Ah yes. Doors that opened at every station and let all the heat out/rain in during the winter. Windows that were deliberately designed not to align with the seats. Seat count per train well down, so many more standees than before. And windows as dirty as the old stock after the first week. What's not to like?
 
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