Southeastern Franchise: Extension granted for minimum 18 months

ScotGG · 2 Apr 2020

Also Networkers can't run as 12 car on some routes hampering use. Can't use loops near Dartford, can't use certain Charing Cross platforms, can't serve all-stoppers on Woolwich line. Only way to solve that is a new fleet and infrastructure upgrades.

A small 707 fleet doesn't address that issue. As said, waiting another 5+ years is the way it's looking and storing up problems. Crossrail does little to nothing for Hayes, Bexleyheath and Sidcup lines.

These are the lines that saw much growth. Metro is the crunch area. True, Covid changes the game but if we want to alleviate congestion mid term new trains are needed to appeal to people and get them out of cars. In addition more working from home will be offset by huge increase in new homes in vicinity of metro lines. Just look at Lewisham and Kidbrooke...

RailUK Forums

JonathanH · 2 Apr 2020

ComUtoR said:
Passengers want plugs, WiFi, tables, and yes they want Toilets.

...and they are going to get something close to the layout of a 345 in 20m form which has none of those things (other than Wifi).

theageofthetra · 2 Apr 2020

JonathanH said:
...and they are going to get something close to the layout of a 345 in 20m form which has none of those things (other than Wifi).

Drivers want toilets too.

ScotGG · 2 Apr 2020

I doubt many Metro passengers care about wifi, tables etc. It's a London commuter zone. Not being wedged into a Networker (or being left behind) is the prioirity.

Mikey C · 2 Apr 2020

The SE Networkers have pretty decent Wifi actually, ironically it's the 8 car 700s operating the Rainham route which don't have Wifi...

sbf kent · 2 Apr 2020

Growth at Ashford International is between 10 and 12 per cent a year. Standing room only from Folkestone is now common. A season ticket from Ashford is now nearly £7,000 a year. New capacity on HS1 is urgently needed. This is before the development of 1,000's of new homes at Ebbsfleet Garden City. The population of Dartford and Gravesham (including Ebbslfeet) predicted to be 252,000 by 2031 (increase of 49,000(24%) on 13/14 baseline)....Population increases in Ashford, Canterbury and a new town at Sandling.....
On current projections 31 high speed services a day will be full to capacity by 2025, meaning that no passenger will be able to board even to stand all the way. Another 25 a day will have standing room only.

Class 170101 · 2 Apr 2020

ScotGG said:
Also Networkers can't run as 12 car on some routes hampering use. Can't use loops near Dartford, can't use certain Charing Cross platforms, can't serve all-stoppers on Woolwich line. Only way to solve that is a new fleet and infrastructure upgrades.

Can Charing Cross actually be extended? I can't imagine there is much room unless you do a Blackfriars style upgrade and extend out across the river and in which case expect Chring Cross to be closed for 6 to 12 months to get this done. Where would all those peak time services go in the meantime?

hwl · 2 Apr 2020

Class 170101 said:
Can Charing Cross actually be extended? I can't imagine there is much room unless you do a Blackfriars style upgrade and extend out across the river and in which case expect Chring Cross to be closed for 6 to 12 months to get this done. Where would all those peak time services go in the meantime?

SDO will sort, the platforms are just extremely narrow at the country end. Hence a good wide aisle walk through design would be good!

Class 170101 · 2 Apr 2020

hwl said:
SDO will sort, the platforms are just extremely narrow at the country end. Hence a good wide aisle walk through design would be good!

SDO won't help short platforms at terminus station because the back of the train could be sticking out fouling points, tracks circuits etc.

alistairlees · 2 Apr 2020

Class 170101 said:
SDO won't help short platforms at terminus station because the back of the train could be sticking out fouling points, tracks circuits etc.

You can already fit a 12-car 375 into platforms 4, 5 and 6 at Charing Cross by using SDO.

Mikey C · 2 Apr 2020

Would fixed formation 11 car trains be an option (or a mix of 5 and 6 cars)?

hwl · 3 Apr 2020

Class 170101 said:
SDO won't help short platforms at terminus station because the back of the train could be sticking out fouling points, tracks circuits etc.

None of which are actually problems - the real issue is the platform ends being to narrow (no gap between the 2 lines!).

375s cope fine with SDO...

From the sectional appendix:

CHARING CROSS
Platform Capacity
Because of the substandard width of platforms at the country end, the maximum number of vehicles that can be accommodated at each platform varies according to the type of stock in accordance with the following table:
Classes
375/377 - 465/466
Platform
1 12(1) 12
2 12(1) 12
3 12(1) 12
4 12(1) 10(2)
5 12(1) 10(2)
6 12(1) 10(2)
If two trains are to be accommodated at the same platform, the total number of vehicles must be determined by referring to the above table and using the number given for the second train arriving.
Notes:-
1 Selective Door Opening (SDO) will only release doors on front 11 coaches.
2 If two trains are to be accommodated in platforms 4, 5, or 6, and the second train arriving is formed of a Class 465 / 466 then the total number of vehicles must NOT exceed 10.

Platform 1 12 252.6m
Platform 2 12 250.8m
Platform 3 12 254.1m
Platform 4 11 222.8m
Platform 5 11 220.6m
Platform 6 11 227.8m

The following instructions apply to Class 465 Networker 12-car operations at Charing Cross Station:
• Platforms 1, 2 or 3 shall be used for the operation of Class 465 Networker 12-car formations.
• Platforms 4, 5 or 6 are not long enough for a Class 465 Networker 12-car formation to be accommodated.
Therefore no Class 465 Networker 12-car formation in passenger service should be routed into platforms 4, 5 and 6 under normal timetable and train regulation conditions.
• All Class 465 Networker 12-car formations will normally be routed on the Up & Down Charing Cross Slow Lines from Ewer Street Junction. Drivers are required to contact the signaller if a route leading to Platforms 4, 5 or 6 is set for a Class 465 Networker 12-car formation;
• If during planned degraded and emergency working, a Class 465 Networker 12-car formation needs to be routed into these platforms, then the train must have the last 2 coaches locked out of passenger service at Waterloo East.
• If a Class 465 Networker 12-car train is inadvertently routed in Platforms 4, 5 or 6 at Charing Cross, due to infrastructure or train failure or due to the error of signaller or/and the driver, the driver must, on the train coming to a stand, not release the doors and carry out the following actions:
a. An announcement must be made to all passengers that the train is not fully berthed in the platform and that there will be a delay in opening the doors.
b. The driver, assisted if necessary by platform staff, must walk along the train and then open each coach individually by the external local door release.
c. The passengers in the last two coaches must be verbally advised to walk through the train so they can safely alight from a coach berthed in the platform.

Class 170101 · 3 Apr 2020

I take it the point work is some distance off the platform end then?

JonathanH · 3 Apr 2020

Class 170101 said:
I take it the point work is some distance off the platform end then?

Not really - everything (apart from the line into and out of platform 4) is a bit tight at Charing Cross

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.5069296,-0.1219339,16z/data=!3m1!1e3

alistairlees · 3 Apr 2020

JonathanH said:
Not really - everything is a bit tight at Charing Cross

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.5069296,-0.1219339,16z/data=!3m1!1e3

Not quite. For platform 4 it’s halfway to Waterloo East. Platforms 5 and 6 (and 1, 2 and 3) are pretty close to the Charing Cross platforms though.

JonathanH · 3 Apr 2020

alistairlees said:
Not quite. For platform 4 it’s halfway to Waterloo East. Platforms 5 and 6 (and 1, 2 and 3) are pretty close to the Charing Cross platforms though.

Yes, I realised that - platform 4 pretty much has its own line.

SlimJim1694 · 4 Apr 2020

ScotGG said:
Also Networkers can't run as 12 car on some routes hampering use. Can't use loops near Dartford, can't use certain Charing Cross platforms, can't serve all-stoppers on Woolwich line. Only way to solve that is a new fleet and infrastructure upgrades.

A small 707 fleet doesn't address that issue. As said, waiting another 5+ years is the way it's looking and storing up problems. Crossrail does little to nothing for Hayes, Bexleyheath and Sidcup lines.

These are the lines that saw much growth. Metro is the crunch area. True, Covid changes the game but if we want to alleviate congestion mid term new trains are needed to appeal to people and get them out of cars. In addition more working from home will be offset by huge increase in new homes in vicinity of metro lines. Just look at Lewisham and Kidbrooke...

Much of the increase in demand for services is directly related to house prices and wages. The more people that can't afford to live in London the more people move further out and rely on the train because they are still reliant on London for their employment. Then of course there are places like Sevenoaks and Tunbridge Wells where house prices are also high. People who work in shops and services in these places are also forced to commute in, adding to train and road congestion. Desirable places to live will always be more expensive, but its likely that this Coronavirus business will cause house prices to crash and many people to become unemployed so we should see some relief in these areas if/when the restrictions ease off.

Horizon22 · 4 Apr 2020

hwl said:
None of which are actually problems - the real issue is the platform ends being to narrow (no gap between the 2 lines!).

375s cope fine with SDO...

From the sectional appendix:

Yep 12-car networkers can use 1,2,3 just fine and are only booked there anyway. Even in times of disruption, you can still juggle around just fine. If the intention was to add more 12-cars, you'd probably need to send these Cannon Street way. Ideally SDO on new stock would solve this problem in Platforms 4-6, but the point work for Platforms 5&6 is literally just outside the station, so still might not be a solution. I don't think you can realistically extend Charing Cross either based on its position with the Thames / Embankment etc. In fact they're already strengthening the bridges at the far end of Platforms 1-3 as this is in urgent need of being structurally reinforced.

It's a tight station probably already running over 100% capacity at peak. Trains are booked to depart and arrive from the same platform in 1 minute which simply doesn't work.

New stock is also vital, because the crowding around 465/466 doors is also very noticeable. The tightness of the timetable means that by the time you reach Hither Green / Lewisham having had even slightly extended dwells all the way from Dartford means you can mess up the whole peak due to the conflicting moves at those locations.

urpert · 4 Apr 2020

ScotGG said:
Also Networkers can't run as 12 car on some routes hampering use. Can't use loops near Dartford, can't use certain Charing Cross platforms, can't serve all-stoppers on Woolwich line. Only way to solve that is a new fleet and infrastructure upgrades.

A small 707 fleet doesn't address that issue. As said, waiting another 5+ years is the way it's looking and storing up problems. Crossrail does little to nothing for Hayes, Bexleyheath and Sidcup lines.

These are the lines that saw much growth. Metro is the crunch area. True, Covid changes the game but if we want to alleviate congestion mid term new trains are needed to appeal to people and get them out of cars. In addition more working from home will be offset by huge increase in new homes in vicinity of metro lines. Just look at Lewisham and Kidbrooke...

Lower Sydenham and Catford too.

brad465 · 4 Apr 2020

urpert said:
Lower Sydenham and Catford too.

All the more why to press on with a Bakerloo line takeover for those two...

ScotGG · 5 Apr 2020

That's a decade off at best. Networkers will never last that long - though the way it's going the Dft will try it...

ScotGG · 5 Apr 2020

sbf kent said:
Growth at Ashford International is between 10 and 12 per cent a year. Standing room only from Folkestone is now common. A season ticket from Ashford is now nearly £7,000 a year. New capacity on HS1 is urgently needed. This is before the development of 1,000's of new homes at Ebbsfleet Garden City. The population of Dartford and Gravesham (including Ebbslfeet) predicted to be 252,000 by 2031 (increase of 49,000(24%) on 13/14 baseline)....Population increases in Ashford, Canterbury and a new town at Sandling.....
On current projections 31 high speed services a day will be full to capacity by 2025, meaning that no passenger will be able to board even to stand all the way. Another 25 a day will have standing room only.

Growth is strong at places like Ashford but dwarfed by growth within London. Deptford was up 70% last year alone. It's near enough up 300% in 10 years and only going one way with so many more homes nearby in planning.

Ebssfleet gets a lot of attention though within London would be middling in terms of growth. Kidbrooke is 6k homes in 5 years v 15k at Ebbsfleet in 15. Charlton is 10k homes planned. Greenwich is 25k. North Bexley 25k. Thamesmead could be 20k alone which would then put north Bexley at 45k. True it's not just rail for those places but the load on southeastern will still be huge.

The network needs serious investment for all areas but I hear so much more about Ebbsfleet and HS1 when Metro is just as pressing if not more. Bakerloo or crossrail extension to Erith, Slade Green, Dartford etc is many years away - if at all.

Class 170101 · 5 Apr 2020

Horizon22 said:
I don't think you can realistically extend Charing Cross either based on its position with the Thames / Embankment etc. In fact they're already strengthening the bridges at the far end of Platforms 1-3 as this is in urgent need of being structurally reinforced.

I guess you would consider extending out over the Thames in the way Blackfriars is to be a non-starter then?

JonathanH · 5 Apr 2020

ScotGG said:
That's a decade off at best. Networkers will never last that long - though the way it's going the Dft will try it...

Why not? The majority of them have new traction equipment. The bodies of the similar Turbos are described as being good for 10 years or more. Just because they might look a little untidy doesn't mean they won't be able to do another ten years of service.

Class 170101 said:
I guess you would consider extending out over the Thames in the way Blackfriars is to be a non-starter then?

It would seem to be a definite non-starter - the bridge deck is too narrow to do anything meaningful as can be seen if you look at an aerial picure https://goo.gl/maps/u8YECE6aU7eN8zZRA. At Blackfriars - https://goo.gl/maps/mjfu3cLUUXf4HwH9A, the platforms were already partly on the bridge and there was space on the bridge deck used for a siding. For Charing Cross, you would be talking about having to replace the platform 5/6 bridge into the station and a period of closure whilst that was done. Cutting a six platform station down to five platforms would also be a non-starter.

Mikey C · 5 Apr 2020

The old Blackfriars station was a much quieter station than Charing Cross with space to widen the bridge over the river

MotCO · 5 Apr 2020

JonathanH said:
Why not? The majority of them have new traction equipment. The bodies of the similar Turbos are described as being good for 10 years or more. Just because they might look a little untidy doesn't mean they won't be able to do another ten years of service.

It would seem to be a definite non-starter - the bridge deck is too narrow to do anything meaningful as can be seen if you look at an aerial picure https://goo.gl/maps/u8YECE6aU7eN8zZRA. At Blackfriars - https://goo.gl/maps/mjfu3cLUUXf4HwH9A, the platforms were already partly on the bridge and there was space on the bridge deck used for a siding. For Charing Cross, you would be talking about having to replace the platform 5/6 bridge into the station and a period of closure whilst that was done. Cutting a six platform station down to five platforms would also be a non-starter.

Is there any prospect about moving the buffers on platforms 4 - 6 further into the station? Would that be sufficient, or would it only improve the position by one carriage length?

swt_passenger · 5 Apr 2020

Mikey C said:
The old Blackfriars station was a much quieter station than Charing Cross with space to widen the bridge over the river

They also had a significant advantage in being able to repurpose the nearest row of bridge piers that had been left in the river since the upstream rail bridge was demolished years ago. Widening the bridge into Charing Cross, (which is also a completely different design), would be a different problem entirely...

MotCO · 5 Apr 2020

JonathanH said:
...and they are going to get something close to the layout of a 345 in 20m form which has none of those things (other than Wifi).

And passengers want comfortable seats. I find the Networker (class 465/6) seats to be fine, the Electrostar (class 376) not too bad - more legrom, but harder, less comfortable seats - but Thameslink (class 700) to be too hard and upright. I would favour retaining the Networkers, but maybe give them a spruce-up.

JonathanH · 5 Apr 2020

MotCO said:
Is there any prospect about moving the buffers on platforms 4 - 6 further into the station? Would that be sufficient, or would it only improve the position by one carriage length?

Not really, they are already pushed quite a long way into the station. Any further and you would be needing to knock through the front of the station.

4-SUB 4732 · 5 Apr 2020

JonathanH said:
Not really, they are already pushed quite a long way into the station. Any further and you would be needing to knock through the front of the station.

Well, not quite. You would just need to remove all the retail space and probably need to build some extra 'internals' through the medium of a giant conservatory over parts of the taxi area. Charing Cross doesn't necessarily need shed loads of waiting space not least because people who use it are commuters, not long distance travellers e.g. Euston who need waiting facilities, cafes etc.

Southeastern Franchise: Extension granted for minimum 18 months

Established Member

RailUK Forums

Veteran Member

On Moderation

Established Member

Established Member

Member

Established Member

Established Member

Established Member

Established Member

Established Member

Established Member

Established Member

Veteran Member

Established Member

Veteran Member

Member

Established Member

Member

Established Member

Established Member

Established Member

Established Member

Veteran Member

Established Member

Established Member

Veteran Member

Established Member

Veteran Member

Established Member