Government - Increase use of public transport

Bletchleyite · 3 Apr 2020

I agree, yet in Wales Trawscymru isn't even being timed to do this. The mind boggles on the UK's inability to understand the benefits of this approach.

RailUK Forums

thenorthern · 3 Apr 2020

edwin_m said:
A Mansfield-Chesterfield rail service would cost in the hundreds of millions to build essentially a new railway between the two, and take many years to plan, design and build. That's for just one of the hundreds of pairs of towns that suffer from poor links between them, and it's clear that rail isn't the answer for these, other than a few where a line still exists or can easily be reinstated.

It would be far cheaper and quicker to fund a direct express bus, or for example along the A38 to Alfreton timed to connect with trains. This could also have fare integration with the train, and the local buses in both Mansfield and Chesterfield could provide the link to the ultimate origin and destination with timed connections and one ticket for the whole journey. That's the sort of situation there is in Switzerland etc where public transport is well-used despite high car ownership.

If only although the A38 past Sutton-in-Ashfield is not an ideal route to run an express bus.

Mansfield was just one that came to mind but there are many places like that. Problem is when the government or opposition promises opening new lines voters just don't believe it anymore.

RT4038 · 3 Apr 2020

thenorthern said:
If only although the A38 past Sutton-in-Ashfield is not an ideal route to run an express bus.

Mansfield was just one that came to mind but there are many places like that. Problem is when the government or opposition promises opening new lines voters just don't believe it anymore.

Voters most certainly do believe it (thinking HS2, there can't be many voters who don't know about that). Voters likely don't believe there will be a new line near them, which is maybe just as well as there probably won't be.

thenorthern · 3 Apr 2020

RT4038 said:
Voters most certainly do believe it (thinking HS2, there can't be many voters who don't know about that). Voters likely don't believe there will be a new line near them, which is maybe just as well as there probably won't be.

I know about HS2 but there are many lines that come to mind such as the Robin Hood Branch to Ollerton, Burton to Leicester, Matlock to Buxton, reopening of the line to Leek and Alton Towers, Skipton to Colne and services to Keswick. People have heard it for sometimes 20 or going on 30 years but it's never happened and is unlikely to anytime soon.

RT4038 · 3 Apr 2020

thenorthern said:
I know about HS2 but there are many lines that come to mind such as the Robin Hood Branch to Ollerton, Burton to Leicester, Matlock to Buxton, reopening of the line to Leek and Alton Towers, Skipton to Colne and services to Keswick. People have heard it for sometimes 20 or going on 30 years but it's never happened and is unlikely to anytime soon.

None of those come to my mind as lines likely to re-open. Most likely are those already in existence and capable of providing commuter service into a large city, so Blyth, Ashington to Newcastle for instance. Next likely are add-ons to existing routes capable of providing commuter service to a large city. Just those will take all the money. Way down will be lines requiring rebuilding and not much commuters, like Skipton-Colne, Alton Towers and Matlock-Buxton. I am not holding my breath for many at all.

Bald Rick · 3 Apr 2020

thenorthern said:
I know about HS2 but there are many lines that come to mind such as the Robin Hood Branch to Ollerton, Burton to Leicester, Matlock to Buxton, reopening of the line to Leek and Alton Towers, Skipton to Colne and services to Keswick. People have heard it for sometimes 20 or going on 30 years but it's never happened and is unlikely to anytime soon.

RT4038 said:
None of those come to my mind as lines likely to re-open. Most likely are those already in existence and capable of providing commuter service into a large city, so Blyth, Ashington to Newcastle for instance. Next likely are add-ons to existing routes capable of providing commuter service to a large city. Just those will take all the money. Way down will be lines requiring rebuilding and not much commuters, like Skipton-Colne, Alton Towers and Matlock-Buxton. I am not holding my breath for many at all.

Ollerton has a good shout. The rest have no chance.

HSTEd · 3 Apr 2020

We have enough underutilised railways as it is without creating new ones.

First deliver high quality services by as fully utilising existing lines as possible.
For many that will mean tram-trains.

A lot of the railways around Nottingham are under utilised for example - and the positioning of Nottingham station is hardly convenient for the public.

PG · 4 Apr 2020

I remember a few months ago getting a mini newspaper thing through the door from the incumbent politician.

Among the many articles was one expounding the potential of a former railway line which was closed and track lifted in the seventies and now forms a long distance walking route.

Lots of waffle and a photo of said politician on the former trackbed. There are however far more likely former lines then this one to reopen but since they don't suit the politicians purposes i.e. not in their constituency they don't get a mention.

Doubtless the same kind of thing goes on all over the place, and hopefully most folk see it for what it is!

The Ham · 4 Apr 2020

PG said:
I remember a few months ago getting a mini newspaper thing through the door from the incumbent politician.

Among the many articles was one expounding the potential of a former railway line which was closed and track lifted in the seventies and now forms a long distance walking route.

Lots of waffle and a photo of said politician on the former trackbed. There are however far more likely former lines then this one to reopen but since they don't suit the politicians purposes i.e. not in their constituency they don't get a mention.

Doubtless the same kind of thing goes on all over the place, and hopefully most folk see it for what it is!

A local MP to me was calling for Crossrail services to be extended to Basingstoke so as to release capacity on the Basingstoke Woking services. Unfortunately Basingstoke to Canary Wharf is faster via Waterloo than using Crossrail and misses the point that actually the vast majority of passengers get on the services at the stations between Basingstoke and Woking.

Bald Rick · 4 Apr 2020

The Ham said:
A local MP to me was calling for Crossrail services to be extended to Basingstoke so as to release capacity on the Basingstoke Woking services. Unfortunately Basingstoke to Canary Wharf is faster via Waterloo than using Crossrail and misses the point that actually the vast majority of passengers get on the services at the stations between Basingstoke and Woking.

He’d been nobbled by the local rail user “group”, ie a handful of elderly gentlemen with too much time on their hands.

jopsuk · 4 Apr 2020

The Ham said:
A local MP to me was calling for Crossrail services to be extended to Basingstoke

that would need a heck of a lot of engineering wouldn't it?

ComUtoR · 4 Apr 2020

The Ham said:
Unfortunately Basingstoke to Canary Wharf is faster via Waterloo than using Crossrail and misses the point that actually the vast majority of passengers get on the services at the stations between Basingstoke and Woking.

It would link Basingstoke to Heathrow...

Personally, Basingstoke on Crossrail would be very useful for me.

Mag_seven · 4 Apr 2020

The Ham said:
A local MP to me was calling for Crossrail services to be extended to Basingstoke

Can we just get the existing scope finished first before we start talking about extensions!

underbank · 4 Apr 2020

HSTEd said:
We have enough underutilised railways as it is without creating new ones.

I agree. How about the Morecambe<>Heysham branch. One passenger train per day to/from the harbour which is barely used. Yet the line goes through thousands of homes along it's route without any station for them to use the line. A station in Morecambe's West End and a station in Heysham itself would be massively useful to the thousands of people within a mile or two of the line. Get an hourly shuttle on the line doing Lancaster-Morecambe-Heysham and you've created public transport for thousands at pretty low cost.

Compare that to the far higher costs of reinstating the Fleetwood branch which would serve far fewer people. At least with Heysham, the line and insfrastructure is in place - just need to build a couple of small/simple stations. For Fleetwood, it's a complete rebuilding job and the Fleetwood end is now blocked by developments so the terminal station wouldn't actually be in central Fleetwood. (Not to mention, Fleetwood is already well connected by a far superior bus/tram network).

yorksrob · 4 Apr 2020

underbank said:
I agree. How about the Morecambe<>Heysham branch. One passenger train per day to/from the harbour which is barely used. Yet the line goes through thousands of homes along it's route without any station for them to use the line. A station in Morecambe's West End and a station in Heysham itself would be massively useful to the thousands of people within a mile or two of the line. Get an hourly shuttle on the line doing Lancaster-Morecambe-Heysham and you've created public transport for thousands at pretty low cost.

Whilst I wouldn't dissuade any other projects, I've often thought that the Heysham line could be better used to serve the area.

Llandudno · 4 Apr 2020

underbank said:
I agree. How about the Morecambe<>Heysham branch. One passenger train per day to/from the harbour which is barely used. Yet the line goes through thousands of homes along it's route without any station for them to use the line. A station in Morecambe's West End and a station in Heysham itself would be massively useful to the thousands of people within a mile or two of the line. Get an hourly shuttle on the line doing Lancaster-Morecambe-Heysham and you've created public transport for thousands at pretty low cost.

Compare that to the far higher costs of reinstating the Fleetwood branch which would serve far fewer people. At least with Heysham, the line and insfrastructure is in place - just need to build a couple of small/simple stations. For Fleetwood, it's a complete rebuilding job and the Fleetwood end is now blocked by developments so the terminal station wouldn't actually be in central Fleetwood. (Not to mention, Fleetwood is already well connected by a far superior bus/tram network).

We don’t seem able to build small/simple stations.

£8million for Bow Street for example!

Meerkat · 4 Apr 2020

yorksrob said:
Whilst I wouldn't dissuade any other projects, I've often thought that the Heysham line could be better used to serve the area.

From Google aerial map Heysham looks a relatively small place of medium to low density housing with high car ownership. The Rail service would be slow via a reversal at Morecambe and a long way round to Lancaster. Where do the population work? If it’s the power station or not in central Lancaster the railway isn’t going to be very attractive.
As you have probably guessed by now I don’t think this is viable. It’s bus country.

yorksrob · 4 Apr 2020

Llandudno said:
We don’t seem able to build small/simple stations.

£8million for Bow Street for example!

Very true. We need to get back to the spirit of West Yorkshire PTE's wooden stations in the 80's

yorksrob · 4 Apr 2020

Meerkat said:
From Google aerial map Heysham looks a relatively small place of medium to low density housing with high car ownership. The Rail service would be slow via a reversal at Morecambe and a long way round to Lancaster. Where do the population work? If it’s the power station or not in central Lancaster the railway isn’t going to be very attractive.
As you have probably guessed by now I don’t think this is viable. It’s bus country.

I would say that Lancaster is a pretty good railhead to the rest of the country. It could be useful for people travelling further afield.

Bletchleyite · 4 Apr 2020

Meerkat said:
From Google aerial map Heysham looks a relatively small place of medium to low density housing with high car ownership. The Rail service would be slow via a reversal at Morecambe and a long way round to Lancaster. Where do the population work? If it’s the power station or not in central Lancaster the railway isn’t going to be very attractive.
As you have probably guessed by now I don’t think this is viable. It’s bus country.

You would perhaps be surprised by the loadings you get on the Morecambe shuttles, I've known them full and standing. It's the sort of route where you could get reasonable ridership just by upgrading it a bit with a decent brand (perhaps something like "The Bay Metro"), and there's the Eden Project in Morecambe coming up too. You could perhaps battery-convert a couple of those 2-car third-rail EMUs you get on SWR to do it, then you've got the environmental credential too. (I'd say 230s in Tube layout if the things worked!)

Meerkat · 4 Apr 2020

Bletchleyite said:
You would perhaps be surprised by the loadings you get on the Morecambe shuttles, I've known them full and standing. It's the sort of route where you could get reasonable ridership just by upgrading it a bit with a decent brand (perhaps something like "The Bay Metro"), and there's the Eden Project in Morecambe coming up too. You could perhaps battery-convert a couple of those 2-car third-rail EMUs you get on SWR to do it, then you've got the environmental credential too. (I'd say 230s in Tube layout if the things worked!)

Morecambe shuttle to Heysham or Lancaster?
My crayons want a flying junction and electrification so that services to Lancaster can terminate in Morecambe....

Class 170101 · 4 Apr 2020

ComUtoR said:
It would link Basingstoke to Heathrow...

Personally, Basingstoke on Crossrail would be very useful for me.

Crossrail wouldn't do that, unless Western Access is built.

Southern Access would be better.

Llandudno said:
We don’t seem able to build small/simple stations.

£8million for Bow Street for example!

yorksrob said:
Very true. We need to get back to the spirit of West Yorkshire PTE's wooden stations in the 80's

Agree with the principle of your argument. Unfortunately are the PTE stations accessible for everyone to use?

One station I seem recall Crossgates - whilst the station had ramps they are very steep and I doubt they comply with the maximum gradient allowed now for wheelchair use.

yorksrob · 4 Apr 2020

Class 170101 said:
One station I seem recall Crossgates - whilst the station had ramps they are very steep and I doubt they comply with the maximum gradient allowed now for wheelchair use.

I'm sure it's not that difficult to put a long ramp in at most stations.

HSTEd · 4 Apr 2020

Meerkat said:
From Google aerial map Heysham looks a relatively small place of medium to low density housing with high car ownership. The Rail service would be slow via a reversal at Morecambe and a long way round to Lancaster. Where do the population work? If it’s the power station or not in central Lancaster the railway isn’t going to be very attractive.
As you have probably guessed by now I don’t think this is viable. It’s bus country.

Then we should withdraw the service entirely.
If its bus country the railway's continued existance serves no purpose.
It's just bleeding money into a bottomless pit.

Either rebuild the railway so its actually a useful form of transport or scrap it.

EDIT:

Apparently the high intensity Heysham Lancaster bus takes 42 minutes and runs via Morecambe.
Even the less frequent "direct" bus, takes 28 minutes.

A train can probably match that from a hypothetical Heysham Town station is only about 10 kilometres via rail to Lancaster railway station.

Meerkat · 4 Apr 2020

HSTEd said:
Apparently the high intensity Heysham Lancaster bus takes 42 minutes and runs via Morecambe.
Even the less frequent "direct" bus, takes 28 minutes.

A train can probably match that from a hypothetical Heysham Town station is only about 10 kilometres via rail to Lancaster railway station.

But for the money spent on new stations you should be able to speed up the bus journeys for far more people, and the bus is more likely to go near where the passengers want to go.

Paul_10 · 4 Apr 2020

Bletchleyite said:
You would perhaps be surprised by the loadings you get on the Morecambe shuttles, I've known them full and standing. It's the sort of route where you could get reasonable ridership just by upgrading it a bit with a decent brand (perhaps something like "The Bay Metro"), and there's the Eden Project in Morecambe coming up too. You could perhaps battery-convert a couple of those 2-car third-rail EMUs you get on SWR to do it, then you've got the environmental credential too. (I'd say 230s in Tube layout if the things worked!)

Goes against my observations then, I think the 10:33 train to Leeds via Lancaster can be a busy service on a Saturday but apart from that, even the early morning services(apart from the train which picks up the school kids perhaps) are not full and standing as you described.

The line has probably suffered in 2 ways, firstly the building of the by pass so the days of slow traffic from Lancaster to Morecambe are largely gone now and secondly having an Imcompetent operator operating it with the many problems like the non Saturday service and a much reduced service after the May timetable debarcle. Now we got no service at all because of this unfortunate COVID-19 situation. The only real reason people probably use it because they got a decent chance of getting a free ride from Bare Lane as there is no ticket machine there and the guards don't get round checking everyone's tickets or don't bother too.

So a new station built on the Heysham line would be a waste of time and money, Heysham is well served by buses for those who need it.

yorksrob · 4 Apr 2020

Paul_10 said:
Goes against my observations then, I think the 10:33 train to Leeds via Lancaster can be a busy service on a Saturday but apart from that, even the early morning services(apart from the train which picks up the school kids perhaps) are not full and standing as you described.

The line has probably suffered in 2 ways, firstly the building of the by pass so the days of slow traffic from Lancaster to Morecambe are largely gone now and secondly having an Imcompetent operator operating it with the many problems like the non Saturday service and a much reduced service after the May timetable debarcle. Now we got no service at all because of this unfortunate COVID-19 situation. The only real reason people probably use it because they got a decent chance of getting a free ride from Bare Lane as there is no ticket machine there and the guards don't get round checking everyone's tickets or don't bother too.

So a new station built on the Heysham line would be a waste of time and money, Heysham is well served by buses for those who need it.

There are usually plenty of people on the Saturday 10:19 Leeds - Morecambe who travel through. Often quite a few on the way back as well.

HSTEd · 4 Apr 2020

Meerkat said:
But for the money spent on new stations you should be able to speed up the bus journeys for far more people, and the bus is more likely to go near where the passengers want to go.

Well given that the railway follows the route of at least one of the bus routes, I am not sure whether "speeding up the bus journeys for far more people" is really realistic.

Also speeding up bus journeys isg oing to be hard given that all you need to make a big difference to this line are two crossovers and a couple of one platform stations.
Don't get much in the way of busway for that.

But if this is the case, why is the railway still open?

underbank · 4 Apr 2020

Meerkat said:
From Google aerial map Heysham looks a relatively small place of medium to low density housing with high car ownership. The Rail service would be slow via a reversal at Morecambe and a long way round to Lancaster. Where do the population work? If it’s the power station or not in central Lancaster the railway isn’t going to be very attractive.
As you have probably guessed by now I don’t think this is viable. It’s bus country.

It's not just Heysham, it's the West End of Morecambe too that would benefit from a new station. There are relatively few people living within easy walking distance of Morecambe station so it's not very popular, yet Bare Lane is far more heavily used, as would a new West End station, i.e. stations where people actually live, not an inconveniently placed town centre one. Of course car ownership is high - there's poor public transport - doh!

underbank · 4 Apr 2020

Paul_10 said:
Heysham is well served by buses for those who need it.

But not a convenient way for bus passengers to get from Lancaster bus station to Lancaster railway station for onward travel. It's about a mile walk uphill, after a slow tortuous bus journey.

Government - Increase use of public transport

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