Battery Powered Electrostars for Southern

Roast Veg · 27 Mar 2020

hwl said:
The Dormans - Pembury 132kV cable east of that is effectively maxed out (inc. resilience allowance) which suggests a Nat Grid 400KV intervention might be needed (passes a couple of miles south of Uckfield near the A22/A26 roundabout).

Would a new NG substation at Uckfield potentially be useful for more resiliance elsewhere in that case?

RailUK Forums

paul1609 · 27 Mar 2020

davyp said:
Near-tautology alert!

Quite possibly, but the lack of any progress in terms of conversion let alone trial running and charging on the dc system, with the DMUs due on EMT in 2 years time suggests to me that Im right and the whole idea will be quietly dropped.

Argyle_mikey · 28 Mar 2020

So...your new best guesses as to what will actually happen on the Marshlink ?

D365 · 28 Mar 2020

Argyle_mikey said:
So...your new best guesses as to what will actually happen on the Marshlink ?

Probably best that you start a new discussion for that in the “Speculative Ideas” subforum.

Argyle_mikey · 28 Mar 2020

The whole thread is full of speculative ideas !

Just interested in peoples updated opinions since the last time I asked.

thanks

Mike

Bald Rick · 28 Mar 2020

Argyle_mikey said:
So...your new best guesses as to what will actually happen on the Marshlink ?

Status Quo. (Not a concert).

paul1609 · 28 Mar 2020

Bald Rick said:
Status Quo. (Not a concert).

Absolutely, we are the line that has had electrification started 3 times then cancelled.
The Thumpers were kept for over 40 years well beyond their reliable life.
The replacement DMUs didn't have enough coaches and promises to increase them have been broken year after year for 15 years.
The plan to cut the route in half to Eastbourne and double the length of the trains turned out to be cut the route in half and still only have 2 coach trains.
Promised line speed improvements haven't materialised except for one 20 mph TSR outside Ashford which had been in place for 40 years.

Bald Rick · 28 Mar 2020

paul1609 said:
Absolutely, we are the line that has had electrification started 3 times then cancelled.
The Thumpers were kept for over 40 years well beyond their reliable life.
The replacement DMUs didn't have enough coaches and promises to increase them have been broken year after year for 15 years.
The plan to cut the route in half to Eastbourne and double the length of the trains turned out to be cut the route in half and still only have 2 coach trains.
Promised line speed improvements haven't materialised except for one 20 mph TSR outside Ashford which had been in place for 40 years.

I’m not sure linespeed improvements have ever been promised. Merely suggested.

paul1609 · 28 Mar 2020

Bald Rick said:
I’m not sure linespeed improvements have ever been promised. Merely suggested.

I think that a linespeed increase to 75 mph and Winchelsea level crossing to 60 mph was promised in the justification for the Ore Tunnel Blockade in 2012. It was pointed out that it all wouldn't happen immediately as some further renewals had to happen, but it appears that 8 years later nothing has happened except the 20 mph restriction outside Ashford has gone.
This was said in an article in Rail Engineer:
Journey time improvements

But the tunnel is not the whole story. With a nine week blockade available, just about everyone wants to take advantage of this extraordinary opportunity.

Murray Motley is a Senior project sponsor with Network Rail. As sponsor for a longer term scheme to improve journey times between Ashford and Brighton he has a great interest in the blockade.

Murray explains that, “The journey time improvement scheme had been developed to a point where we knew what we needed to do and what it would cost – but the costs were fairly high and, given that this is a rural railway, we were struggling to justify it. But what has actually happened is that much of what we were going to have to do is being picked up as part of routine maintenance.

“So, for example, if track has been relayed then that’s part of a normal renewal maintenance cost rather than a discrete scheme cost and so the actual money we have had to provide is just the incremental cost of putting the track back at a higher speed. The line is currently 60mph throughout with permanent speed restrictions in various places, but the aspiration is to get it up to 75mph.

“Although we won’t be able to open at the higher speed because we still have work to do on some structures and level crossings, the track will be ready for it because we will have done a substantial part of the overall scheme.”

hwl · 28 Mar 2020

paul1609 said:
The plan to cut the route in half to Eastbourne and double the length of the trains turned out to be cut the route in half and still only have 2 coach trains.

I thought the promise was to cut the route in half and double the train length on the western half...

Which came about after Govia found the ex Scottish 170s need far more work so the second batch never came.

Then again I suspect Bald Rick and I read stuff with a much more of cynical eye!

There are fewer gauge issues on Marshlink so a 769 is do-able (unlike Uckfield) and Porterbrook are 1 of the 2 171 ROSCOs

hwl · 28 Mar 2020

Roast Veg said:
Would a new NG substation at Uckfield potentially be useful for more resiliance elsewhere in that case?

Yes - UKPN can get away with a lot of smallish works this decade to deal with growth issues (e.g. greater Brighton, Gatwick expansion) but the cupboard is then bare after that for easy stuff.

Argyle_mikey · 28 Mar 2020

4 coach trains were promised for summer weekends last year, but rarely materialised. Meanwhile, long Uckfield trains ran near empty to LBG.

Promised again this summer I understand. The Marshlink weekend overcrowding is pretty bad, even by Southern standards.

The 3 coach Scotrail 171’s would have been great.

All empty as I write of course....

LA50041 · 28 Mar 2020

Argyle_mikey said:
4 coach trains were promised for summer weekends last year, but rarely materialised. Meanwhile, long Uckfield trains ran near empty to LBG.

Promised again this summer I understand. The Marshlink weekend overcrowding is pretty bad, even by Southern standards.

The 3 coach Scotrail 171’s would have been great.

All empty as I write of course....

the CWN’s for the May timetable have some weekend journeys operated by 171/8’s

paul1609 · 29 Mar 2020

Argyle_mikey said:
4 coach trains were promised for summer weekends last year, but rarely materialised. Meanwhile, long Uckfield trains ran near empty to LBG.

Promised again this summer I understand. The Marshlink weekend overcrowding is pretty bad, even by Southern standards.

The 3 coach Scotrail 171’s would have been great.

All empty as I write of course....

Absolutely, if Ashford and Hastings were in Greater Manchester there would have been outrage, repeated Nationwide BBC coverage, questions asked in the commons and demands for Thameslink to be nationalised.

Bald Rick · 29 Mar 2020

paul1609 said:
I think that a linespeed increase to 75 mph and Winchelsea level crossing to 60 mph was promised in the justification for the Ore Tunnel Blockade in 2012. It was pointed out that it all wouldn't happen immediately as some further renewals had to happen, but it appears that 8 years later nothing has happened except the 20 mph restriction outside Ashford has gone.
This was said in an article in Rail Engineer:
Journey time improvements

But the tunnel is not the whole story. With a nine week blockade available, just about everyone wants to take advantage of this extraordinary opportunity.

Murray Motley is a Senior project sponsor with Network Rail. As sponsor for a longer term scheme to improve journey times between Ashford and Brighton he has a great interest in the blockade.

Murray explains that, “The journey time improvement scheme had been developed to a point where we knew what we needed to do and what it would cost – but the costs were fairly high and, given that this is a rural railway, we were struggling to justify it. But what has actually happened is that much of what we were going to have to do is being picked up as part of routine maintenance.

“So, for example, if track has been relayed then that’s part of a normal renewal maintenance cost rather than a discrete scheme cost and so the actual money we have had to provide is just the incremental cost of putting the track back at a higher speed. The line is currently 60mph throughout with permanent speed restrictions in various places, but the aspiration is to get it up to 75mph.

“Although we won’t be able to open at the higher speed because we still have work to do on some structures and level crossings, the track will be ready for it because we will have done a substantial part of the overall scheme.”

As I said, that’s not a promise. Just an explanation that track work was done for higher speed, but there’s lots of other work, for which there was no justification.

paul1609 · 29 Mar 2020

Bald Rick said:
As I said, that’s not a promise. Just an explanation that track work was done for higher speed, but there’s lots of other work, for which there was no justification.

So what other work needs to be carried out to lift the 40 mph linespeed between Doleham and Ore?

Bald Rick · 29 Mar 2020

paul1609 said:
So what other work needs to be carried out to lift the 40 mph linespeed between Doleham and Ore?

I don’t know, but as the article said, structures and level crossings sound like a starting point.

paul1609 · 29 Mar 2020

Bald Rick said:
I don’t know, but as the article said, structures and level crossings sound like a starting point.

Theres no level crossings in the 4 miles of 40 mph only 1 footpath crossing not far from Doleham. Both under bridges were rebuilt as part of the Ore Tunnel Blockade in 2012. The rail was mostly replaced then also. The signalling is still in the same position as when the line had a 85 mph line speed.

Argyle_mikey · 4 Apr 2020

Argyle_mikey said:
4 coach trains were promised for summer weekends last year, but rarely materialised. Meanwhile, long Uckfield trains ran near empty to LBG.

Promised again this summer I understand. The Marshlink weekend overcrowding is pretty bad, even by Southern standards.

The 3 coach Scotrail 171’s would have been great.

All empty as I write of course....

Near empty - obviously - 4 coach trains today. Genius.

Class 466 · 4 Apr 2020

4 coaches on the marsh for now to keep the mileage up on the units as the Uckfield line is just a 2 car shuttle to Oxted.

Mikey C · 4 Apr 2020

Maybe they thought that everyone would disobey the advice to stay home today and all go for a trip to the seaside!

paul1609 · 4 Apr 2020

Ive heard that during the emergency they are considering extending the service back to Brighton and to Canterbury West so that they can say they tried what customers have been telling them customers actually want, but nobody used it!

Peter Sarf · 4 Apr 2020

paul1609 said:
Ive heard that during the emergency they are considering extending the service back to Brighton and to Canterbury West so that they can say they tried what customers have been telling them customers actually want, but nobody used it!

Simple then. Apply that test to all the services they run and, when its discovered no one was using them hand them ALL over to an open access operator.

Fincra5 · 4 Apr 2020

paul1609 said:
Ive heard that during the emergency they are considering extending the service back to Brighton and to Canterbury West so that they can say they tried what customers have been telling them customers actually want, but nobody used it!

Sounds like a wonderful rumour.

Wyrleybart · 5 Apr 2020

Erm - how many OAOs are operating at the moment ?
Answer - none.

Peter Sarf · 5 Apr 2020

Wyrleybart said:
Erm - how many OAOs are operating at the moment ?
Answer - none.

Yet !.

Southern Dvr · 5 Apr 2020

Enough of the fake news.

4 car Marshlink due to social distancing. No other reason.
No extensions to Canterbury or Brighton.
Due to SDO arrangements for the short platforms at Doleham and Three Oaks (people need to be able to access the front coach) a 4 car has to be used as opposed to being 2x2. Meanwhile Oxted to Uckfield is now running with 2x2 car.

Due to new regulations about propelling moves into the bay at Oxted the units now shunt from platform 1 to the up siding and then back to platform 1 to form the services back to Uckfield from platform 1 instead of platform 3.

paul1609 · 5 Apr 2020

Southern Dvr said:
Enough of the fake news.

4 car Marshlink due to social distancing. No other reason.
No extensions to Canterbury or Brighton.
Due to SDO arrangements for the short platforms at Doleham and Three Oaks (people need to be able to access the front coach) a 4 car has to be used as opposed to being 2x2. Meanwhile Oxted to Uckfield is now running with 2x2 car.

Due to new regulations about propelling moves into the bay at Oxted the units now shunt from platform 1 to the up siding and then back to platform 1 to form the services back to Uckfield from platform 1 instead of platform 3.

Can 2x2 select 3 coach opening ? If not I'd imagine most stations platforms would be too short.
The Marshlink Revolutionary Front have plans to smash the couplings so the 4 car units cant go back to Uckfield, after 20 years of being lied to by Connex, Southern and network rail we are desperate.

Argyle_mikey · 5 Apr 2020

paul1609 said:
Can 2x2 select 3 coach opening ? If not I'd imagine most stations platforms would be too short.
The Marshlink Revolutionary Front have plans to smash the couplings so the 4 car units cant go back to Uckfield, after 20 years of being lied to by Connex, Southern and network rail we are desperate.

I’ll bring a sledgehammer.

So...Commuter traffic on the Uckfield Line reduces substantially after COVID -19 as loads realise they can WFH. The 2+2 Oxted shuttles become permanent. 4 Coach hourly, all stations Hastings bay platform to Ashford service becomes the new reality. I stop moaning, and everyone’s happy.

43096 · 5 Apr 2020

paul1609 said:
Can 2x2 select 3 coach opening ? If not I'd imagine most stations platforms would be too short.
The Marshlink Revolutionary Front have plans to smash the couplings so the 4 car units cant go back to Uckfield, after 20 years of being lied to by Connex, Southern and network rail we are desperate.

Resistance is futile..... they’d take them back to Selhurst for coupler repairs.

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