• Our booking engine at tickets.railforums.co.uk (powered by TrainSplit) helps support the running of the forum with every ticket purchase! Find out more and ask any questions/give us feedback in this thread!

Turn-back Sidings

Status
Not open for further replies.

Lucan

Established Member
Joined
21 Feb 2018
Messages
1,211
Location
Wales
Looking at the Carto.Metro map of London's railways ...
http://carto.metro.free.fr/cartes/metro-tram-london/index.php
... I am wondering what the reasoning is behind the location of turn-back sidings on the Underground. Some are at more significant stations like just south of Victoria, facing north, where you expect many southbound passengers to get off and have no need for such a frequent service beyond it. Marble Arch, Tooting Broadway, King's Cross (Victoria Line), Harrow-on-the-Hill, and White City are similar cases.

However there are ones at quieter locations; one that caught my eye is facing east just west of Down Street, which is so quiet that it is closed! Others in this category might be Northolt, Willesdon Green, and Archway.

There is a logic to turning back at a quieter station. As everyone must get off, it is not a good idea to add those people who wish to travel further to those who actually want that station if it is a very busy one anyway. The ones wish to travel further will not only slow the exit from the train, but will also remain on the platform, impeding the flow of others to the exits.
 
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R

RailUK Forums

Domh245

Established Member
Joined
6 Apr 2013
Messages
8,426
Location
nowhere
Surely many of them will be quirks of history rather than any relation to today's service. I would think that the one at Archway for example is related to the fact the CCE&HR once terminated there, prior to the extension to High Barnet.
 

Ianno87

Veteran Member
Joined
3 May 2015
Messages
15,215
Victoria and Kings Cross are deliberate with the original idea of running short workings to cover the busiest sections of the Victoria line.

Nowadays, the whole line is sufficiently busy to justify every train running end to end (except for depot access) - and tying to terminate a train and clear it of passengers causes more problems than it solves.
 

Rogmi

Member
Joined
7 Nov 2013
Messages
89
Some of the reasons are historical, others are convenience

Archway
Archway was the original terminus (then called Highgate) of the 'Hampstead Tube' which ran from Charing Cross to Golders Green / Highgate. Archway (I'll call it that instead of Highgate!) had the standard scissors crossover south of the station and trains reversed in the platform. When the Northern line was extended from Archway, the siding was created from the overrun tunnel of what is now the SB platform and eventually the scissors crossover was removed.

The siding is 9 cars long, as is the (then) newly constructed Highgate platforms. This was in preparation for the provision of running nine car trains like on the Edgware branch.

Archway siding was a regular timetabled off-peak reversing point in many timetables. The last regular use in this way being a rather ill-fated timetable of some years back that included Kennington / Archway reversers.

Archway is a convenient reversing point if the job is up the wall and one use used to be to reverse a late-running Mill Hill East train there to bring it back to right time on the south. It also means that if part of the open section of the Barnet branch is screwed, a service can be run as far as Archway so that at least passengers can get part way home.
 

Mojo

Forum Staff
Staff Member
Administrator
Joined
7 Aug 2005
Messages
20,382
Location
0035
However there are ones at quieter locations; one that caught my eye is facing east just west of Down Street, which is so quiet that it is closed! Others in this category might be Northolt, Willesdon Green, and Archway.
It is worth pointing out that Down St siding meant that the platform at the disused station of the same name had to be shortened to facilitate access. The siding is, in theory, long enough to accommodate two trains. I say “in theory” because there is only one track circuit so it is not possible to have two separate trains in there without manual technical intervention!

The West Ruislip branch of the Central line could not justify every train going all the way to West Ruislip or even Ruislip Gardens, however Northolt station is extremely busy as are the stations beyond there towards London.
 

packermac

Member
Joined
16 Sep 2019
Messages
543
Location
Swanage
Looking at the Carto.Metro map of London's railways ...
http://carto.metro.free.fr/cartes/metro-tram-london/index.php
... I am wondering what the reasoning is behind the location of turn-back sidings on the Underground. Some are at more significant stations like just south of Victoria, facing north, where you expect many southbound passengers to get off and have no need for such a frequent service beyond it. Marble Arch, Tooting Broadway, King's Cross (Victoria Line), Harrow-on-the-Hill, and White City are similar cases.

However there are ones at quieter locations; one that caught my eye is facing east just west of Down Street, which is so quiet that it is closed! Others in this category might be Northolt, Willesdon Green, and Archway.

There is a logic to turning back at a quieter station. As everyone must get off, it is not a good idea to add those people who wish to travel further to those who actually want that station if it is a very busy one anyway. The ones wish to travel further will not only slow the exit from the train, but will also remain on the platform, impeding the flow of others to the exits.
Although it may have changed since I moved from London 5 years ago Willesden Green was always a busy turn point on the Jubilee as it saved trains going all the way to Wembley Park before turning if they were not travelling the full way to Stanmore.
 

rebmcr

Established Member
Joined
15 Nov 2011
Messages
3,845
Location
St Neots
Although it may have changed since I moved from London 5 years ago Willesden Green was always a busy turn point on the Jubilee as it saved trains going all the way to Wembley Park before turning if they were not travelling the full way to Stanmore.

They're now using relatively new facilities at West Hampstead for this purpose, to squeeze even more use out of the limited fleet size at peak times.
 

Busaholic

Veteran Member
Joined
7 Jun 2014
Messages
14,029
Victoria and Kings Cross are deliberate with the original idea of running short workings to cover the busiest sections of the Victoria line.

Nowadays, the whole line is sufficiently busy to justify every train running end to end (except for depot access) - and tying to terminate a train and clear it of passengers causes more problems than it solves.
In the case of Victoria, it was the original terminus, and even after it got extended to Brixton there was still a regular scheduled terminating service in the peaks at least well into the 1970s, if not longer.
 

Lucan

Established Member
Joined
21 Feb 2018
Messages
1,211
Location
Wales
Northolt station is extremely busy
I didn't know that, and must admit that the Central is the line I am least familar with.

I notice there is a turn-back centre siding at White City, yet they closed the turn-back loop there (and a station on it according to Carte-Metro) at some time in the past. Surely the turn-back loop would have been better, so why did they close it? I did see a video of a walk through the loop, and AFAIR it was a concrete trough open to the sky. Presumably the civil works are still there. I can't find the link to that walk now - it may have been a trespass.
 

rebmcr

Established Member
Joined
15 Nov 2011
Messages
3,845
Location
St Neots
I didn't know that, and must admit that the Central is the line I am least familar with.

I notice there is a turn-back centre siding at White City, yet they closed the turn-back loop there (and a station on it according to Carte-Metro) at some time in the past. Surely the turn-back loop would have been better, so why did they close it? I did see a video of a walk through the loop, and AFAIR it was a concrete trough open to the sky. Presumably the civil works are still there. I can't find the link to that walk now - it may have been a trespass.

While it may have been open to the air at one point, there is now a rather large shopping centre above the entire depot site.
 

Dstock7080

Established Member
Joined
17 Feb 2010
Messages
2,741
Location
West London
I notice there is a turn-back centre siding at White City, yet they closed the turn-back loop there (and a station on it according to Carte-Metro) at some time in the past. Surely the turn-back loop would have been better, so why did they close it?.
The Wood Lane loop was removed when the current White City station was opened in 1947 and access to the sidings changed
 

bluegoblin7

Established Member
Joined
10 May 2011
Messages
1,357
Location
JB/JP/JW
While it may have been open to the air at one point, there is now a rather large shopping centre above the entire depot site.

There is still an open air turn back siding to the north of White City; the stabling sidings are to the south east.
 

LUYMun

Member
Joined
15 Jul 2018
Messages
776
Location
Somewhere
Northwood sidings, located south of the station, has been used for Metropolitan line services that have engineering works or disruption south of Northwood. On engineering works this requires Northwood-Amersham/Chesham services via Watford, using both curves.
 

bluegoblin7

Established Member
Joined
10 May 2011
Messages
1,357
Location
JB/JP/JW
The loop between the station and depot is long-gone, though?

Yes, just clarifying that the centre siding is still there as your post (to me) muddied the waters. The “new” White City sidings under Westfield are exactly that, new.


Northwood sidings, located south of the station, has been used for Metropolitan line services that have engineering works or disruption south of Northwood. On engineering works this requires Northwood-Amersham/Chesham services via Watford, using both curves.

Just the one siding at Northwood. Not used much in anger except for engineering works as it’s a faff operationally (operated from Harrow cabin). Probably not hugely classed as a “turn back siding” in the definition of this thread; its retention was primarily for engineers’ use.

Rayners Lane is a great example in the context of this thread for sidings on the Met, more so than Harrow or Northwood.
 

AlbertBeale

Established Member
Joined
16 Jun 2019
Messages
2,695
Location
London
Yes, just clarifying that the centre siding is still there as your post (to me) muddied the waters. The “new” White City sidings under Westfield are exactly that, new.




Just the one siding at Northwood. Not used much in anger except for engineering works as it’s a faff operationally (operated from Harrow cabin). Probably not hugely classed as a “turn back siding” in the definition of this thread; its retention was primarily for engineers’ use.

Rayners Lane is a great example in the context of this thread for sidings on the Met, more so than Harrow or Northwood.

Do Mets ever turn back at Rayners Lane? I'd always thought it was just used (quite a lot in fact) by the Piccadilly.

Years ago when I was around the area all the time, the Northolt siding had a steady trickle of use, with Centrals often terminating there.
 

TiedUpInNotts

Member
Joined
19 Dec 2019
Messages
22
Location
Wolves
There were a number of tunnel sidings on the old CSLR/Northern which have long been obliterated. I'd love to know what, if anything remains of them. Elephant & Castle and Angel had them. There may have been more.
 

Rogmi

Member
Joined
7 Nov 2013
Messages
89
C&SLRly sidings
List of siding details: - see p.9 of the C&SLRly WTT33:
https://londonstransport.proboards.com/thread/976/slrly-working-tiimetable-november-complete

See the Carto Metro map for scale track details where the disused etc. track is shown for the C&SLRly stations - it’s simplest to download the PDF version of the map here:
http://carto.metro.free.fr/metro-tram-london/

Angel
At 858 feet long, Angel siding was the largest of the C&SLRly sidings and ran almost as far as City Road station. Theoretically, four train sets (5 cars + loco = 175 feet) could be stabled there. WTT33 shows two trains using the siding for stabling.
The siding is still there (or at least it was when I was last down there about 20 years ago). Angel was the temporary terminus and had a scissors crossover south of the platform. The siding joined the NB track, a bit further south from the platform, with access from both platforms. The signal box was located at the north end of the wide crossover tunnel.

When the C&SLRly platforms were extended to around 350 feet, the island platform at Angel was extended south, over the scissors crossover. Access to the siding temporarily remained from the NB platform.

When the NB diversion was created, the new track cut through the middle of the siding, near Wakley St. The north and south ends of the siding remained in place as stubs.
(14:22 - edited to change mention where the siding was cut through)
I’ll cover the other sidings in a different post
 
Last edited:

Mojo

Forum Staff
Staff Member
Administrator
Joined
7 Aug 2005
Messages
20,382
Location
0035
There’s an abandoned siding at Queensway on the Tuppenny Tube, I’m sure I recall being told that 1992 stock trains couldn’t fit either into or out of it due to gauging issues. Apparently even using the crossover there is a bit hairy!

Also on the same line is the British Museum siding, one that was taken out of use more recently as a cost saving exercise.
 

Rogmi

Member
Joined
7 Nov 2013
Messages
89
C&SLRly sidings – the rest

Euston
Euston was the final north terminus of the C&SLRly and had an Island platform and a similar track layout to Angel.
210ft pit siding adjacent to the NB track
1 and 2 sidings north of platforms (overrun tunnels) 227ft
Lengthening of the island platform reduced the pit siding to a much shorter stub. Still there as a disused tunnel

Old Street
291ft siding between the running tracks, south of the station
Widening of the two running tunnels cut into the siding width, but I believe that there is still something there. The platforms were extended south, which means that whatever is left of the siding length is greatly reduced.

Moorgate
17ft siding (loco stabling) off the SB platform
The position can be clearly seen today as it was at the south end of the platform tunnel in the space between the wall and where the track curves out from the station (at the point where there is reduced platform width). I’m certain that I can remember from a long while ago that there was a block of wood on the headwall which acted as the buffer (since removed) but I may be wrong.
The platforms were extended north, so the siding was not affected. There was also a scissors crossover south of the station (the short crossover tunnel is still there) from when Moorgate was the temporary terminus

London Bridge
144ft siding. South of the station between the NB and original SB tracks
If reversing N-S at London Bridge, I seem to recall that the siding could be partly seen.
The platforms were extended north, so the crossover and siding were not affected. However, work for the new Jubilee line meant that the SB line was diverted, with the loss of the reversing point (not deemed necessary, unfortunately - would have been handy during the Bank shutdown works!) and the south end of the siding became part of the circulating area.

Elephant & Castle
262ft long
I can’t find the Greathead diagram that shows the original layout from Stockwell to King William St, but the siding was shown as a bit north of the station between the two running lines. It probably disappeared during tunnel widening. I don’t know if there’s anything left.

Stockwell
Stockwell was originally an island platform terminus, situated where the crossover tunnel is now. There have been changes since then, the main one being new platforms south of the original island platforms
I don’t have a detailed diagram to hand, so I can’t check on when the changes were made. WTT33 lists five sidings in 1916 - 170ft, 297ft, 150ft, 458ft and 455ft

Today, there is still one long disused siding that ran all the way from some point at what is now the north end of the SB platform as far as the connection with the access track to Stockwell depot. The siding is empty, other than the now disused Northern line IMR at the north end.
The depot access track tunnel is still there and is now used as cable access to the substation on the site of the depot. I don’t know if the depot track is classed as a siding in the list.

A diagram from 1925(?) when single line working was introduced between Stockwell and Oval due to a tunnel collapse during tunnel widening shows just the one long siding and the depot access track.

Clapham Common
Very much like Euston, Clapham Common was the final terminus of the C&SLRly and had an Island platform and a similar track layout.
99ft pit siding adjacent to the BB track
1 and 2 sidings south of platforms (overrun tunnels) 450ft These could each have accommodated 2 train sets if required
The island platform was extended north and, as the scissors crossover was retained, this also meant extending the crossover tunnel (which is the same width and height as the platform tunnel). I suspect that the pit siding is still there as there is / used to be an entrance to somewhere on the south end of the crossover tunnel.

Notes
Because a train set was 175ft long, sidings shorter than this could not accommodate a full train. It’s possible that the cars could be left there and the loco goes elsewhere, or even used just to stable / reverse locos. The pit siding at Euston and Clapham Common would have been used for any loco servicing as required.

As far as I know these notes are right, but some of it is based on memory from some years ago!

Zoom right in on the Carto Metro map to see finer detail at a location
 

rebmcr

Established Member
Joined
15 Nov 2011
Messages
3,845
Location
St Neots
Zoom right in on the Carto Metro map to see finer detail at a location

It appears there was also a loco reversing siding at Bank, prior to the 'usual' platform extension southwards.
 

Rogmi

Member
Joined
7 Nov 2013
Messages
89
I forgot about Bank - it wasn't in the WTT33 list. I forget where I got the original information from for it to be included in the CM map. As you say, it disappeared during the platform extension. Access was south from the NB platform, I assume that the track would have been in the position that is now the actual platform at the south end - possibly the original NB platform tunnel was longer than the standard 200ft in order to accommodate the siding. Or the original NB running tunnel widened to accommodate the siding just before the station. As it's not listed in WTT33, I assume that it's use was possibly during when Moorgate was the temporary terminus in 1900 and was decommissioned some time after the line extended to Angel / Euston.
 

Rogmi

Member
Joined
7 Nov 2013
Messages
89
I've temporarily uploaded two PDF files for anybody that wants them. They're on Google drive, just click on the link. The files can be viewed online and / or downloaded.

WTT33:

C&SLRly stations Then and now:
https://drive.google.com/open?id=1L5gIAp83oEDPibWFZBerQQrYwyqsk1B2

Then and now is a collection of diagrams that I did some years back to show track and platform changes at stations from when the C&SLRly was first opened to recent times. They show the approximate layout / position of the sidings at the time, but do not necessarilly show disused siding remains today (i.e. Angel)

Also see the Wiki page for info. on the C&SLRly and the Greathead (he of the shield) original track diagram:

There is a redrawn diagram of the Stockwell end here (or click on Stockwell on the wiki page):

140420 - I've just added the C&SLRly WTT33 off-peak running times diagram:
 
Last edited:

Enthusiast

Member
Joined
18 Mar 2019
Messages
1,045
Thirty or forty years ago short workings were quite common on a number of lines. The Northern Line would regularly see trains terminate at Tooting Broadway (as an aside there was a fatal accident there in 1971 when a train overran the buffers in the siding and collided with the tunnel end, killing the driver). The Central Line ran an intensive service between Liverpool Street and Marble Arch. The Piccadilly Line only ran through to Uxbridge during peak hours only. The rest of the day trains terminated at Rayners Lane where ongoing passengers would have to catch the Met Line. Golders Green was a regular terminal point on the Edgware Branch. As already mentioned, Kings Cross and Victoria saw trains terminating there most of the day on the Victoria Line. Putney Bridge and Plaistow were regular destinations on the District Line. One other quirk that always sticks in my mind (nothing to do with turnbacks) is that on the Sunday before each Bank Holiday Monday the Wimbledon to Edgware Road District Line service was extended to Aldgate. Don't ask me why! Thinking about it since - it may be because no Circle Line ran on that day. I think that ceased in about 1965.
 
Last edited:

Enthusiast

Member
Joined
18 Mar 2019
Messages
1,045
On the subjects of loops, they were not favoured on London Underground. Trains were traditionally composed of either two four car sets or a four car and a three car set. These sets were “handed”. They had an ‘A’ end and a ‘D’ end and they had to be coupled A to D, leaving an A and a D end at the front and rear of the train. Because of this it was desirable to keep all the trains facing in the same direction so that the sets could be split and recoupled as necessary. On most lines this was not a problem but the Kennington loop on the Northern Line meant that at the end of the day many trains were left facing the “wrong” way. The same problem was evident on the Central Line with the Hainault Loop though this had far less severe consequences. Until relatively recently (and this “handing” is not a problem on new trains) the service between Woodford and Hainault was served by a shuttle (as it has recently reverted to) and few trains circled the Hainault loop.

Wood Lane station and its loop had some interesting features. The platforms had to be extended in the 1920s to accommodate longer trains. If this was done to one of the platforms it would have meant fouling the points that led to the depot. To overcome this the end of the platform was made into a moveable section which swung out of the way when the points were set for a train to enter the depot. The station and its loop closed in 1947 but there is an interesting article about it here:


 

bramling

Veteran Member
Joined
5 Mar 2012
Messages
17,685
Location
Hertfordshire / Teesdale
C&SLRly sidings – the rest

Euston

Euston was the final north terminus of the C&SLRly and had an Island platform and a similar track layout to Angel.
210ft pit siding adjacent to the NB track
1 and 2 sidings north of platforms (overrun tunnels) 227ft
Lengthening of the island platform reduced the pit siding to a much shorter stub. Still there as a disused tunnel

This is correct, however the remains of this tunnel are at least partly backfilled with rubble. There's two boltholes which theoretically give access. There are also the remains of a newer reversing siding south the platforms, which remained in use until the 1960s.

Old Street
291ft siding between the running tracks, south of the station
Widening of the two running tunnels cut into the siding width, but I believe that there is still something there. The platforms were extended south, which means that whatever is left of the siding length is greatly reduced.

Yes at least some of this siding still survives. It was used in the 1990s as part of the work site for the section of running tunnels which were rebuilt due to deterioration, with a temporary shaft being provided to a temporary work site at street level. All this is now gone, however the surviving section of siding remains and is accessible from the running tunnels via boltholes.

London Bridge
144ft siding. South of the station between the NB and original SB tracks
If reversing N-S at London Bridge, I seem to recall that the siding could be partly seen.
The platforms were extended north, so the crossover and siding were not affected. However, work for the new Jubilee line meant that the SB line was diverted, with the loss of the reversing point (not deemed necessary, unfortunately - would have been handy during the Bank shutdown works!) and the south end of the siding became part of the circulating area.

Most of this siding does still survive, however it's been heavily altered as part of the JLE works and is largely divided up into equipment rooms now.

Elephant & Castle
262ft long
I can’t find the Greathead diagram that shows the original layout from Stockwell to King William St, but the siding was shown as a bit north of the station between the two running lines. It probably disappeared during tunnel widening. I don’t know if there’s anything left.

There's the remains of the crossover tunnel in the northbound tunnel, with a bricked up tunnel mouth marking what would have been the siding entrance. All of this siding was swallowed up during the rebuilding as the southbound running tunnel was realigned over its site in order to ease curves. A section of original running tunnel survives as a p-way store off the north end of the southbound platform.


Clapham Common
Very much like Euston, Clapham Common was the final terminus of the C&SLRly and had an Island platform and a similar track layout.
99ft pit siding adjacent to the BB track
1 and 2 sidings south of platforms (overrun tunnels) 450ft These could each have accommodated 2 train sets if required
The island platform was extended north and, as the scissors crossover was retained, this also meant extending the crossover tunnel (which is the same width and height as the platform tunnel). I suspect that the pit siding is still there as there is / used to be an entrance to somewhere on the south end of the crossover tunnel.

Yes the remains of the siding is still there, accessed via a door off the southbound tunnel at the point where the crossover was. It's now a p-way store.

The long siding south of Angel also survives, but now severed into two parts by the diversion of the northbound running tunnel.
 

Rogmi

Member
Joined
7 Nov 2013
Messages
89
Thanks for the additional info. The last tunnel walks I did were around 14 years ago and my memory of some areas is a little hazy :).

I’d forgotten about the siding at Euston, easily seen if looking back from J9.
 

BayPaul

Established Member
Joined
11 Jul 2019
Messages
1,219
Rather than at a busy station, I would have thought that a turnback one station beyond a busy station would be more useful - that way the train can 90% empty out at the busy station, and then at the quiet station it would be a much easier process to empty the train fully at a quieter platform. I'd always thought that might be one of the reasons why Hyde Park Corner is the central station with a crossover on the Picadilly line, as it would be one of the quieter places to reverse a train if one end of the line is blocked, rather than doing it at Green Park or another busy interchange.
 

rebmcr

Established Member
Joined
15 Nov 2011
Messages
3,845
Location
St Neots
Rather than at a busy station, I would have thought that a turnback one station beyond a busy station would be more useful - that way the train can 90% empty out at the busy station, and then at the quiet station it would be a much easier process to empty the train fully at a quieter platform. I'd always thought that might be one of the reasons why Hyde Park Corner is the central station with a crossover on the Picadilly line, as it would be one of the quieter places to reverse a train if one end of the line is blocked, rather than doing it at Green Park or another busy interchange.

Busy stations are busy because of boarding too, not just alighting.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Top