• Our booking engine at tickets.railforums.co.uk (powered by TrainSplit) helps support the running of the forum with every ticket purchase! Find out more and ask any questions/give us feedback in this thread!

Suggestions for Aire Valley services such as using class 350/2 units or extending platforms

Status
Not open for further replies.

Halifaxlad

Established Member
Joined
5 Apr 2018
Messages
1,367
Location
The White Rose County
Last edited by a moderator:
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R

RailUK Forums

JonathanH

Veteran Member
Joined
29 May 2011
Messages
18,536
I can't see any platforms being lengthened since the 331's have SDO.

As for the Aire Valley, lease some 350/2s when they come off lease next year, then lengthen platforms or run alternate 8 car services.

What? In one sentence you suggest that no platforms should be lengthened because the 331s have SDO. In the next, you suggest lengthening platforms to operate 350/2s.

There is no need whatsoever for 350/2s to go to Northern on the Aire Valley or any other route. They have plenty of 331s on order and entering service.

There are currently no plans for further electrification on Northern's routes (other than east of Huddersfield that Northern won't be able to use in any case) so this is some way off.
 

61653 HTAFC

Veteran Member
Joined
18 Dec 2012
Messages
17,624
Location
Another planet...
There are currently no plans for further electrification on Northern's routes (other than east of Huddersfield that Northern won't be able to use in any case) so this is some way off.
The assumption is that once Huddersfield is wired, an all-shacks electric stopper (LDS-HUD) will be operated by Northern or their successor:- not by TPE as it is currently. It's unlikely to get 331s though, so apologies for going off-topic!
 

JonathanH

Veteran Member
Joined
29 May 2011
Messages
18,536
The assumption is that once Huddersfield is wired, an all-shacks electric stopper will be operated by Northern or their successor:- not by TPE as it is currently. It's unlikely to get 331s though, so apologies for going off-topic!

Where to? The wires aren't going all the way to Leeds.
 

61653 HTAFC

Veteran Member
Joined
18 Dec 2012
Messages
17,624
Location
Another planet...
Where to? The wires aren't going all the way to Leeds.
All the official documentation suggests that the wires ARE going to Leeds: why would anyone electrify just the 5-or so miles from Huddersfield to Ravensthorpe? I think you're getting confused by the way the consultation process is being split, with the current phase being Huddersfield to Westtown (West of Dewsbury).

But again we're going off-topic, there's at least two threads covering this.
 

Halifaxlad

Established Member
Joined
5 Apr 2018
Messages
1,367
Location
The White Rose County
What? In one sentence you suggest that no platforms should be lengthened because the 331s have SDO. In the next, you suggest lengthening platforms to operate 350/2s.

There is no need whatsoever for 350/2s to go to Northern on the Aire Valley or any other route. They have plenty of 331s on order and entering service.

There are currently no plans for further electrification on Northern's routes (other than east of Huddersfield that Northern won't be able to use in any case) so this is some way off.

Im certainly not suggesting platforms shouldn't be lengthened because 331's have SDO just that I don't believe it will happen since they're fitted with this technology.

As for electrification, NR are currently drawing up their de-carbonisation strategy which does include further electrification of highly used lines. But that is for another topic.
 

Ianigsy

Member
Joined
12 May 2015
Messages
1,104
Which stations can currently accommodate six-car sets, and which can't?

It wouldn't be a massive job to reinstate the full length of the platforms at Guiseley as the old platforms are still there, plus the cutaways from when portions used to be exchanged there.

Ilkley has plenty of room, which is needed if something breaks down because there's nowhere between Kirkstall and Ilkley that a failure can be put out of the way.
 

61653 HTAFC

Veteran Member
Joined
18 Dec 2012
Messages
17,624
Location
Another planet...
Which stations can currently accommodate six-car sets, and which can't?
Only a few platforms on the entire "triangle" of lines are currently long enough for 6-cars, but most locations would be relatively easy to extend (though may require signals to be moved which adds to the cost). At most stations even 8-car platforms would be possible, but unlikely to ever be needed.

The sticking point (besides capacity at Leeds) is Shipley platforms 2 and 5 which could only be extended to 6-car, anything longer would require the whole station to be rebuilt with the tracks realigned.
 

ASharpe

Member
Joined
4 Feb 2013
Messages
999
Location
West Yorkshire
The sticking point (besides capacity at Leeds) is Shipley platforms 2 and 5 which could only be extended to 6-car, anything longer would require the whole station to be rebuilt with the tracks realigned.

Perhaps it's worth just getting rid of platform 5, makes extending 2 easier and would reduce conflicting moves.

Sorry if the few passengers traveling through get inconvenienced but it could improve the overall service.
 

61653 HTAFC

Veteran Member
Joined
18 Dec 2012
Messages
17,624
Location
Another planet...
Perhaps it's worth just getting rid of platform 5, makes extending 2 easier and would reduce conflicting moves.

Sorry if the few passengers traveling through get inconvenienced but it could improve the overall service.
I can't quite tell if this is a serious suggestion or you're just trolling...

It's the latter, right?

Right??
 

Halifaxlad

Established Member
Joined
5 Apr 2018
Messages
1,367
Location
The White Rose County
Ilkley has plenty of room, which is needed if something breaks down because there's nowhere between Kirkstall and Ilkley that a failure can be put out of the way.

Don't forget occasionally more often than not, two sets are stabled within the same platform which would become problematic once you start running services 6 cars long.

Obviously the easiest way to get around this would be to reinstate the former through platforms although that will require the loss of the car park.

Failing that, the middle stabling/former run round road in between 1 & 2 could be reinstated to store a set.
 

Halifaxlad

Established Member
Joined
5 Apr 2018
Messages
1,367
Location
The White Rose County
Would there be room for safe crew access?

If you had it slightly longer than the existing lines that serve the platform then it would be possible to access it from the side although I'm unsure if this would be allowed.

Probably easier to reinstate the two platforms that are now a car park.
 

Halifaxlad

Established Member
Joined
5 Apr 2018
Messages
1,367
Location
The White Rose County
Perhaps it's worth just getting rid of platform 5, makes extending 2 easier and would reduce conflicting moves.

Sorry if the few passengers traveling through get inconvenienced but it could improve the overall service.

I can't quite tell if this is a serious suggestion or you're just trolling...

It's the latter, right?

Right??

Maybe a more pragmatic solution would be to move Saltaire Eastwards towards Shipley and stop services they're instead!

Obviously not services from 3 & 4!

That way you could easily lengthen all services.
 

Bantamzen

Established Member
Joined
4 Dec 2013
Messages
9,672
Location
Baildon, West Yorkshire
I can't quite tell if this is a serious suggestion or you're just trolling...

It's the latter, right?

Right??

You would hope so, of all the services out of Bradford FS the Skipton line is by far the busiest. Taking that out for the sake of a few more metres of track for P2 would be madness.

Maybe a more pragmatic solution would be to move Saltaire Eastwards towards Shipley and stop services they're instead!

Obviously not services from 3 & 4!

That way you could easily lengthen all services.

I have a sneaky feeling you've mooted this idea before (apologies if it wasn't you). However Saltaire station serves Saltaire, it isn't going to get moved.
 

Halifaxlad

Established Member
Joined
5 Apr 2018
Messages
1,367
Location
The White Rose County
(apologies if it wasn't you)

o_O

I nearly started by saying 'maybe we should re-visit my previous suggestion'.

I'm not adamant about closing or moving Saltaire as is being done/proposed for Ravensthorpe, Deighton, Cottingley.

We could just build some new longer platforms for Shipley, Westwards instead that would still solve the problem.

Apologizes in advance!
 

Class195

Member
Joined
28 Nov 2019
Messages
298
Location
Bradford
You would hope so, of all the services out of Bradford FS the Skipton line is by far the busiest. Taking that out for the sake of a few more metres of track for P2 would be madness.



I have a sneaky feeling you've mooted this idea before (apologies if it wasn't you). However Saltaire station serves Saltaire, it isn't going to get moved.

Why would you move Saltaire station?

It's in the perfect location in relation to the village, canal, park and mill.
 

Halifaxlad

Established Member
Joined
5 Apr 2018
Messages
1,367
Location
The White Rose County
Why would you move Saltaire station?

It's in the perfect location in relation to the village, canal, park and mill.


Its a bit like Cottingley, obviously its a great location for the houses that surround it although by moving it slightly you could potentially capitalize on other benefits such as better overall public transport links.

If Saltaire was moved Eastwards, it could be a short distance away from the main road and much easier to access by bus. (obviously depending on bus services)

I'm not adamant about moving it, but I think opening some new longer and straighter platforms to the East of Saltaire should definitely be considered as a replacement for P5, 1 & 2 at Shipley.
 

Halifaxlad

Established Member
Joined
5 Apr 2018
Messages
1,367
Location
The White Rose County
Is 6 car running really worth it anyway ?

To run as 6 the proposal (as most of us know) is to run two 3 car units together to the detriment of the rest of the day when services are expected to run as a single 3 car set.

Obviously it is not ideal to run all day as 6 cars since the guard can't get through the 331's to check/issue tickets.

Ideally if services are to run as 6 cars we need some 2 car 331's but none were built unlike the 195s and I don't believe they're is anything spare or compitable if indeed they're is even such a thing as a 2 car electric unit.

This is generally why I like to see platforms lengthened to cater for 2 four car sets. That way the capacity throughout the day is maintained at existing level and every train is the same length which makes it easier for the planners.
 

30907

Veteran Member
Joined
30 Sep 2012
Messages
17,867
Location
Airedale
Is 6 car running really worth it anyway ?

To run as 6 the proposal (as most of us know) is to run two 3 car units together to the detriment of the rest of the day when services are expected to run as a single 3 car set.
1x3 is perfectly adequate for offpeak services IME, maybe excepting peak shoulder (eg 1556 ex Leeds).
 

alistairlees

Established Member
Joined
29 Dec 2016
Messages
3,725
How long are the current Leeds to Skipton platforms at Shipley? Looking at Google Earth it looks like there is room to extend to 6 cars (at the Leeds end).
 

61653 HTAFC

Veteran Member
Joined
18 Dec 2012
Messages
17,624
Location
Another planet...
How long are the current Leeds to Skipton platforms at Shipley? Looking at Google Earth it looks like there is room to extend to 6 cars (at the Leeds end).
6x23m should be doable (though might create issues with overlaps at either end of P2 due to the proximity of the junctions). Anything more than that, as per the original suggestion that led to this thread, is well into crayola territory.
 

Harvey B

Member
Joined
11 Mar 2019
Messages
984
Is 6 car running really worth it anyway ?

To run as 6 the proposal (as most of us know) is to run two 3 car units together to the detriment of the rest of the day when services are expected to run as a single 3 car set.

Obviously it is not ideal to run all day as 6 cars since the guard can't get through the 331's to check/issue tickets.
IIRC, I remember being on a 333 staffed by two conductors (one at the back doing a "guard duty" taking fares while the other was at the front just taking fares) which I think only happens during peak times. I don't see any reason why you couldn't place one conductor in the front three coaches and one in the back.
Ideally if services are to run as 6 cars we need some 2 car 331's but none were built unlike the 195s and I don't believe they're is anything spare or compitable if indeed they're is even such a thing as a 2 car electric unit.

This is generally why I like to see platforms lengthened to cater for 2 four car sets. That way the capacity throughout the day is maintained at existing level and every train is the same length which makes it easier for the planners.
As for two car EMU's, unless they are third rail only units I don't think I've ever known Two car EMU's to exist for overhead line EMU's.
 
Last edited:

Halish Railway

Established Member
Joined
26 Apr 2017
Messages
1,692
Location
West Yorkshire / Birmingham
Is 6 car running really worth it anyway ?
Yep - The 333s are a victim of their own success.

To run as 6 the proposal (as most of us know) is to run two 3 car units together to the detriment of the rest of the day when services are expected to run as a single 3 car set.
This 3 car nonsense needs to stop - 3 cars is completely inadequate for off peak Leeds to Ilkley and Skipton services as in most cases all the seats will be taken by the final intermediate station (especially on a Saturday). Not to mention that it’s 204 seats (331/0) vs 360 of a 333.
 
Last edited:

30907

Veteran Member
Joined
30 Sep 2012
Messages
17,867
Location
Airedale
6x23m should be doable (though might create issues with overlaps at either end of P2 due to the proximity of the junctions).
The 6th car on a down train would be over the arched bridge; I don't know how easy it would be to extend the platform at that point. I don't see a problem with the overlap for wrong-direction working though, as the corresponding signal on P3 is much nearer the junction.

This 3 car nonsense needs to stop - 3 cars is completely inadequate for off peak Leeds to Ilkley and Skipton services as in most cases all the seats will be taken by the final intermediate station (especially on a Saturday). Not to mention that it’s 204 seats (331/0) vs 360 of a 333.
It's not rocket science to run 6 cars in and out of Leeds on a Saturday.
 

Halifaxlad

Established Member
Joined
5 Apr 2018
Messages
1,367
Location
The White Rose County
IIRC, I remember being on a 333 staffed by two conductors (one at the back doing a "guard duty" taking fares while the other was at the front just taking fares) which I think only happens during peak times. I don't see any reason why you couldn't place one conductor in the front three coaches and one in the back.

As for two car EMU's, unless they are third rail only units I don't think I've ever known Two car EMU's to exist for overhead line EMU's.

Ive been on them many many times during peak hour myself.

Obviously they're is no reason why it wouldn't be possible to run multiples of 331's this way but to run them this way all day and night would result in increased costs.

Which is why I believe running 4 car sets is the optimum solution and why I'm against 3 car sets.

Generally speaking to all of us on here, although this may be in the long term, what do we do when the peak services reach capacity after being lengthened to 6 cars ?

Don't forget this is only 2 more carriages than the existing 4 car sets that as we know are already stretched to capacity!
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Top