26-30 railcard survey - plans to bring in new restrictions

Kite159 · 29 Mar 2020

I would imagine any attempts to make the railcard means tested will probably end up costing more than it would actually save.

Most likely if any new restrictions are introduced it will be a higher minimum fare, probably the minimum fare for the 18-25 card being increased at the same time (hasn't it been £12 for years?)

RailUK Forums

David Goddard · 5 Apr 2020

Couldn't believe the number of different restrictions the 26-30 railcard brought in.
Every card has its own set of restrictions based on earliest usage time, minimum fare days/times, and classes of travel, this one seemed to take one restriction from each of the other products
Instead of launching a new product, it would have been better to just converted the 16-25 into 16-30 and be done with it.
Then, at the same time, harmonise the time restriction (be it for minimum fare (as in 16-25) or full stop (as in NSE/2GETH)) for all railcards to 09:30
#makingfaressimple

JonathanH · 5 Apr 2020

David Goddard said:
Couldn't believe the number of different restrictions the 26-30 railcard brought in.
Every card has its own set of restrictions based on earliest usage time, minimum fare days/times, and classes of travel, this one seemed to take one restriction from each of the other products
Instead of launching a new product, it would have been better to just converted the 16-25 into 16-30 and be done with it.
Then, at the same time, harmonise the time restriction (be it for minimum fare (as in 16-25) or full stop (as in NSE/2GETH)) for all railcards to 09:30
#makingfaressimple

No, you completely miss the point of the restrictions on the 16-25 railcard (at one time 16-23) which are designed around students - for example, for university open days, work in the summer months, holidays etc.

26-30 was a political gimmick.

It is not at all appropriate to harmonise the terms of the 26-30 railcard fully with the 16-25 railcard (although I note there was an exploitable loophole where they said that if there wasn't a 26-30 Railcard option on the ticket machine, it was possible to buy a ticket with 16-25 railcard discount instead). By all means harmonise the 26-30 railcard with the 2GETH restrictions and change the Senior and Friends and Family Railcards to take the 2GETH restrictions as well.

Hadders · 5 Apr 2020

David Goddard said:
Couldn't believe the number of different restrictions the 26-30 railcard brought in.
Every card has its own set of restrictions based on earliest usage time, minimum fare days/times, and classes of travel, this one seemed to take one restriction from each of the other products
Instead of launching a new product, it would have been better to just converted the 16-25 into 16-30 and be done with it.
Then, at the same time, harmonise the time restriction (be it for minimum fare (as in 16-25) or full stop (as in NSE/2GETH)) for all railcards to 09:30
#makingfaressimple

The 26-30 Railcard hasn’t the same restrictions as the 16-25 except for the relaxation of minimum fare restrictions in July and August.

Do you realise that you're proposal to simplify Railcards is going to result in a huge increase in fares for many students and young, low paid workers...

Haywain · 5 Apr 2020

Hadders said:
The 26-30 Railcard hasn’t the same restrictions as the 16-25 except for the relaxation of minimum fare restrictions in July and August.

Do you realise that you're proposal to simplify Railcards is going to result in a huge increase in fares for many students and young, low paid workers...

Changing the restrictions on all railcards to the same as the Two Together Railcard would lead to potential substantial fare increases for many older people as well, not just youngsters.

JonathanH · 6 Apr 2020

Haywain said:
Changing the restrictions on all railcards to the same as the Two Together Railcard would lead to potential substantial fare increases for many older people as well, not just youngsters.

...and why would that be a problem? Should we really be allowing discounts in the morning peak? I have never understood why the 'south east' restriction on the use of the Senior Railcard (and the Friends and Family Railcard) hasn't been extended network wide.

Remember, use of the railway needs to increase by 50% to justify the 33% reduction railcards offer.

Hadders · 6 Apr 2020

JonathanH said:
...and why would that be a problem? Should we really be allowing discounts in the morning peak? I have never understood why the 'south east' restriction on the use of the Senior Railcard (and the Friends and Family Railcard) hasn't been extended network wide.

Remember, use of the railway needs to increase by 50% to justify the 33% reduction railcards offer.

I have said this previously but will repeat it again. Consider a Stevenage to London Terminals journey made for work (very, very common for someone living round here).

Anytime Day Return £23.30
Weekly Season £99.10
Annual Season £3,964

The weekly season ticket is poor value compared to the price of daily tickets.

Younger workers, at the start of their careers, generally earn far less than someone later in their career. They are also less likely to be able to pay for an annual season ticket due to the high outlay and the Government wants to be seen to be something for 'generation rent'. Arguably the cost of rail travel should be reduced for everyone but this is not feasible unless there is a massive shift in Government policy which is highly unlikely to happen.

By allowing a railcard reduction in the morning it allows the daily cost of getting to work to be reduced to £15.40, a much more reasonable level for someone at the start of their career.

I'm actually surprised that some sort of railcard isn't sees as a solution for the thorny subject of people who only commute to work 2 or 3 days a week. It would need to be priced appropriately but at the way ahead seems to be carnets offering a poor discount. It would need some thought but could be worthy of consideration.

Bletchleyite · 6 Apr 2020

Regarding badly-priced seasons this just needs to be solved by making it a standard calculation. I'd also like to see the Annual replaced by a monthly direct debit contract, perhaps with a minimum term or an exit fee of some kind.

Hadders · 6 Apr 2020

Bletchleyite said:
Regarding badly-priced seasons this just needs to be solved by making it a standard calculation. I'd also like to see the Annual replaced by a monthly direct debit contract, perhaps with a minimum term or an exit fee of some kind.

But none of that does anything for the younger ‘generation rent’. How do you help them?

Bletchleyite · 6 Apr 2020

Hadders said:
But none of that does anything for the younger ‘generation rent’. How do you help them?

A monthly direct debit season ticket absolutely would by offering the "annual price" to those who are living month to month without the need for the up-front money.

JonathanH · 6 Apr 2020

Hadders said:
But none of that does anything for the younger ‘generation rent’. How do you help them?

I don't think you do help them. Not in the post-Coronavirus age. I would instead level the playing field by targeting the extra tax we are going to need to collect on people aged over 35.

Bletchleyite · 6 Apr 2020

JonathanH said:
I don't think you do help them. Not in the post-Coronavirus age. I would instead level the playing field by targeting the extra tax we are going to need to collect on people aged over 35.

Why on earth would you do that? It would be better to put more of it on the higher rate, and perhaps even introduce another intermediate rate band. There are low-paid people living hand to mouth in all generations, and often older ones are attempting to feed families, too.

JonathanH · 6 Apr 2020

Bletchleyite said:
Why on earth would you do that? It would be better to put more of it on the higher rate, and perhaps even introduce another intermediate rate band. There are low-paid people living hand to mouth in all generations, and often older ones are attempting to feed families, too.

Sorry to make it clear, I was talking about age related taxes on higher earners, definitely not those aged over 35 who are 'living hand to mouth'.

Bletchleyite · 6 Apr 2020

JonathanH said:
Sorry to make it clear, I was talking about age related taxes on higher earners, definitely not those aged over 35 who are 'living hand to mouth'.

I don't agree. Simply tax higher earners independent of their age, and maybe also consider some form of asset taxation.

telstarbox · 6 Apr 2020

Hadders said:
I'm actually surprised that some sort of railcard isn't sees as a solution for the thorny subject of people who only commute to work 2 or 3 days a week. It would need to be priced appropriately but at the way ahead seems to be carnets offering a poor discount. It would need some thought but could be worthy of consideration.

But don't those people save money by not paying for the non-work days anyway?

telstarbox · 6 Apr 2020

Bletchleyite said:
Why on earth would you do that? It would be better to put more of it on the higher rate, and perhaps even introduce another intermediate rate band. There are low-paid people living hand to mouth in all generations, and often older ones are attempting to feed families, too.

Age-related income tax would have a number of perverse incentives - for example, it would badly affect women who take time out to have children and then return to work.

Alteran Ancient · 7 Apr 2020

I use my 26-30 Railcard predominantly for leisure and casual journeys. If they scaled back the perks of the Railcard, then why would I continue to consider using the trains when my car becomes a more economically attractive option? I thought we were supposed to be encouraging use of shared and public transport (current pandemic excepted, of course) to help combat congestion and pollution.

That being said, if it is being used by people to regularly commute during peak times in peak direction, then I wouldn't mind seeing some restrictions to that effect, as we probably want Railcard to incentivise usage more during off-peak periods and to get more bottoms-on-seats during the times of the day when the trains would normally be quieter.

Starmill · 7 Apr 2020

Bletchleyite said:
Regarding badly-priced seasons this just needs to be solved by making it a standard calculation. I'd also like to see the Annual replaced by a monthly direct debit contract, perhaps with a minimum term or an exit fee of some kind.

How on earth would you do that?

In the Stevenage to London example given, the 7 day is 4.25 times the daily ticket price. Way too high.

But consider other routes where daily London commuters travel in significant numbers, e.g. Winchester. Here the multiplier from the daily rate to the weekly rate is 1.8. To achieve your desired ratio the price of the Anytime Day Return would need to drop significantly from its £74.90 rate. Who is going to pay for that?

Alternatively you could look at increasing the season ticket rate, but good luck with the politics of that, because you'd force people out of their London employment if you did. You'd have to take the 7DS up from current £130 to about £260. That's significantly more than the current price for Weymouth to London 7 Day.

Bletchleyite · 7 Apr 2020

Starmill said:
But consider other routes where daily London commuters travel in significant numbers, e.g. Winchester. Here the multiplier from the daily rate to the weekly rate is 1.8. To achieve your desired ratio the price of the Anytime Day Return would need to drop significantly from its £74.90 rate. Who is going to pay for that?

Just like any fares simplification or other change, such as return = single x 2, you aim to do it revenue neutrally and there will be winners and losers. But what you end up with is overall a much fairer, clearer and simpler system.

Starmill · 7 Apr 2020

Bletchleyite said:
Just like any fares simplification or other change, such as return = single x 2, you aim to do it revenue neutrally and there will be winners and losers. But what you end up with is overall a much fairer, clearer and simpler system.

It wouldn't be revenue neutral though - it would be almost impossible because demand is so inelastic.

What you would actually be doing is just charging Winchester passengers more and charging Stevenage passengers less.

aviator · 7 Apr 2020

J

Bletchleyite said:
Or (I know you won't like this, but it *is* a way) to put more restrictions on Railcards, such as a higher minimum fare or total bar before 10am, particularly in the South East where commutes are longer and so Anytime fares much higher. The 16-25 minimum (and for that matter the NSE one) also hasn't anywhere near kept up with fare increases so its effect will now be relatively negligible.

I saw you expressing your view on that matter and declined to reply so as not to get into a pointless yes-no argument as neither of us is going to change our opinion, but for the record I respectfully disagree with it, as you may expect.

Railcards are intended to be leisure products. You may not like that, but that is the entire basis of them existing. Some people find workarounds to use them for commuting, just as some people find split ticketing useful, but neither of them are deliberate products of the TOCs for the purpose of commuting/reducing fares respectively.

On the side, with regard to Advances, they are now being misused particularly in the North in order to allow the fare-setter to set a TOC specific fare which is mostly intended for walk-up travel. This does cloud what they are used for somewhat and is in my view grossly unhelpful. But that's one for another thread, really.

Just for your information - when commuting in the UK I held a Disabled Railcard, and used it during my commute - which I otherwise couldn't have afforded (London Euston to either Worcester FS or Hall Green, via Birmingham NS). A Disabled Railcard is a real railcard, IMHO, but is not intended to be exclusviely for leisure journeys - and never has been

Starmill · 7 Apr 2020

aviator said:
J

Just for your information - when commuting in the UK I held a Disabled Railcard, and used it during my commute - which I otherwise couldn't have afforded (London Euston to either Worcester FS or Hall Green, via Birmingham NS). A Disabled Railcard is a real railcard, IMHO, but is not intended to be exclusviely for leisure journeys - and never has been

Indeed. The Disabled Railcard is something of an exception to the rule that's often forgotten. The HM Forces railcard is a bit of an oddity also, but a very small one. They have perhaps more in common with staff travel discounts such as reduced rate season tickets for staff, and Heathrow Airport discount etc than they do with the rest of the range of railcards, which fit into the description of them that I gave, which was as commercial tools. There are so many discount types available that there are a lot of shades of grey.

One way or the other, the idea that railcards are "intended to be leisure products only" is well out of date and no longer true.

Bletchleyite · 7 Apr 2020

aviator said:
Just for your information - when commuting in the UK I held a Disabled Railcard, and used it during my commute - which I otherwise couldn't have afforded (London Euston to either Worcester FS or Hall Green, via Birmingham NS)

It is highly questionable as to whether we should be encouraging daily commutes over that kind of distance. Indeed, I might be tempted to go a lot further and say we actively should not be encouraging such things. The situation around London is bad enough.

aviator · 7 Apr 2020

Bletchleyite said:
It is highly questionable as to whether we should be encouraging daily commutes over that kind of distance. Indeed, I might be tempted to go a lot further and say we actively should not be encouraging such things. The situation around London is bad enough.

Well it was better than trying to drive that distance

and at least I was commting against the flow! (except for the Coventry-Birmigham part of the journey, that is)

HSTEd · 7 Apr 2020

Well... I guess I will have to fill out the paperwork to get myself a YP Railcard than a 26-30 one.

Wonderful.

Bletchleyite · 7 Apr 2020

HSTEd said:
Well... I guess I will have to fill out the paperwork to get myself a YP Railcard than a 26-30 one.

Wonderful.

If you're entitled to a 16-25 (e.g. as a mature student) why wouldn't you do that? It's a better deal.

Same as my Dad who is entitled to both a Senior and Disabled card, and has chosen the Disabled one because the deal is slightly better (the companion, primarily).

HSTEd · 7 Apr 2020

Bletchleyite said:
If you're entitled to a 16-25 (e.g. as a mature student) why wouldn't you do that?

As far as I could work out the deal was functionally the same.

Getting any paperwork from my university is a nightmare, so I chose to just get the 26-30 one.

JonathanH · 7 Apr 2020

Alteran Ancient said:
I thought we were supposed to be encouraging use of shared and public transport (current pandemic excepted, of course) to help combat congestion and pollution.

No, we should be discouraging individual car travel and, at the same time, not encouraging more overall use of shared and public transport.

Bletchleyite · 7 Apr 2020

HSTEd said:
As far as I could work out the deal was functionally the same.

Getting any paperwork from my university is a nightmare, so I chose to just get the 26-30 one.

Quite similar but not quite the same - the 26-30 doesn't have the July/August "minimum fare holiday".

island · 7 Apr 2020

Besides the option of a physical card, I think 16-25 has better acceptance on Caledonian Sleeper. Not much else comes to mind.

26-30 railcard survey - plans to bring in new restrictions

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