Enforcement of the new rules on social distancing, unnecessary journeys etc.

Butts · 6 Apr 2020

Headline on this Mornings "I" Newspaper ......(Scotland Edition)

"Medical Officer sanctioned over visits to Holiday Home"

This is really not good enough, the biggest story in Scotland this Morning and they failed to "Hold The Front Page" to include it.

The news broke around 10pm so how long does it take to send a new front page up the wire to Glasgow where it is printed. The same often happens with Football Matches with a late kick off, final result not included in sports pages.

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DynamicSpirit · 6 Apr 2020

C J Snarzell said:
The problem with a stricter lockdown is that in Italy they are really starting to buckle. Many people over there live in flats/apartments & because they don't have the luxury of a garden or outside space to enjoy fresh air - the level of mental health & anxiety has rocketted. There are certain parts of Italy on the brink of social unrest because people are simply getting restless & fed up with being locked away with no end in sight.

I wouldn't like to think what would happen if the UK goes into full lockdown as the implications are imense.

Agreed. And slightly related to that... one of the things I really like about the UK response is that we've kept exercise as a valid reason for going out. I'm sure that has made a huge difference to a lot of people in terms of making the lockdown more bearable - and therefore making the lockdown more sustainable if, as I suspect, it needs to be continued for several months. It's also sensible since the risk of spreading the virus if you are exercising in accordance with the guidelines and staying away from other people is relatively small - so it makes a big difference to people's lives without massively reducing the efficacy of the lockdown.

I do wonder if countries like Italy that have created much more rigid lockdowns have made a mistake in that regard.

Bletchleyite · 6 Apr 2020

DynamicSpirit said:
Agreed. And slightly related to that... one of the things I really like about the UK response is that we've kept exercise as a valid reason for going out. I'm sure that has made a huge difference to a lot of people in terms of making the lockdown more bearable - and therefore making the lockdown more sustainable if, as I suspect, it needs to be continued for several months. It's also sensible since the risk of spreading the virus if you are exercising in accordance with the guidelines and staying away from other people is relatively small - so it makes a big difference to people's lives without massively reducing the efficacy of the lockdown.

It might also have a long-term beneficial public health effect, as perhaps it's causing people who normally didn't exercise to want to do so, and maybe they will continue in the long term. The Italians are a nation of fairly healthy eaters, as are the Spanish. If you coop up the British with no real means of keeping fit (the average person won't be doing 100 burpees a day even if they think they should) what will happen is a massive obesity and alcoholism crisis.

island · 6 Apr 2020

beardedbrit said:
And enforced exactly how ?? Mass issuing of ankle monitors perhaps.

They could start with a version of the French system. If you’re going out you write the time you leave the house (as well as name address etc.) on a piece of paper which you have to carry, and if you’re challenged by police, you have to produce it. If the time is more than an hour ago that’s €135 please.

Doesn’t catch everything but it’s a start.

Bletchleyite · 6 Apr 2020

island said:
They could start with a version of the French system. If you’re going out you write the time you leave the house (as well as name address etc.) on a piece of paper which you have to carry, and if you’re challenged by police, you have to produce it. If the time is more than an hour ago that’s €135 please.

Doesn’t catch everything but it’s a start.

It doesn't necessarily need to be enforced rigorously. We do however need something to prevent the honeypotting that is still going on in city parks. People need to be going for a run or walk around their local streets instead.

C J Snarzell · 6 Apr 2020

Bletchleyite said:
It doesn't necessarily need to be enforced rigorously. We do however need something to prevent the honeypotting that is still going on in city parks. People need to be going for a run or walk around their local streets instead.

I believe Bristol & Leeds closed their parks just prior to the lockdown starting on the 23rd March. I believe other councils have followed a similar tactic. My main concern is London - they seem to be causing most of the problems that will have massive implications for the rest of us.

CJ

Bletchleyite · 6 Apr 2020

C J Snarzell said:
I believe Bristol & Leeds closed their parks just prior to the lockdown starting on the 23rd March. I believe other councils have followed a similar tactic. My main concern is London - they seem to be causing most of the problems that will have massive implications for the rest of us.

London is so much higher density than the rest of the UK which requires specific solutions that won't apply to say much lower-density MK. That said, a friend in suburban Manchester reported parks busy there simply because their parks are very small - the London ones are vast.

But not every city can close parks - some, e.g. MK, don't gate them so there is no practical way to do so unless it was a legal thing enforceable by the Police.

DynamicSpirit · 6 Apr 2020

island said:
They could start with a version of the French system. If you’re going out you write the time you leave the house (as well as name address etc.) on a piece of paper which you have to carry, and if you’re challenged by police, you have to produce it. If the time is more than an hour ago that’s €135 please.

Out of interest, is there anything to stop people who want to be out for longer from working around that system by taking multiple pieces of paper with them, each one with a different time written on it - and then showing the 'correct' one to the police if you are challenged?

Mojo · 6 Apr 2020

C J Snarzell said:
I believe Bristol & Leeds closed their parks just prior to the lockdown starting on the 23rd March. I believe other councils have followed a similar tactic. My main concern is London - they seem to be causing most of the problems that will have massive implications for the rest of us.

CJ

Bristol reported that they were closing their parks before the nationwide lockdown was announced, but all they did was close the playgrounds (as did every other council as per the national rules). At least this is what they did at the parks in north Bristol near where my parents live (the view from their house looks out across one and they are near others.)

yorksrob · 6 Apr 2020

Bletchleyite said:
London is so much higher density than the rest of the UK which requires specific solutions that won't apply to say much lower-density MK. That said, a friend in suburban Manchester reported parks busy there simply because their parks are very small - the London ones are vast.

But not every city can close parks - some, e.g. MK, don't gate them so there is no practical way to do so unless it was a legal thing enforceable by the Police.

Perhaps they could mark out parks in a grid square pattern and have wardens keeping people in the middle of the squares.

DynamicSpirit · 6 Apr 2020

Bletchleyite said:
It doesn't necessarily need to be enforced rigorously. We do however need something to prevent the honeypotting that is still going on in city parks. People need to be going for a run or walk around their local streets instead.

Wouldn't it make more sense to simply have a few police officers in some of the parks, checking, and enforcing the rules or potentially fining people who are obviously ignoring social distancing, while allowing people who are obviously walking and respecting social distancing to carry on (Assuming of course you can find the manpower. Draft some soldiers in to help?). That way the parks can stay open for people who are being sensible and still want to enjoy them.

AM9 · 6 Apr 2020

DynamicSpirit said:
Out of interest, is there anything to stop people who want to be out for longer from working around that system by taking multiple pieces of paper with them, each one with a different time written on it - and then showing the 'correct' one to the police if you are challenged?

That might work for a while, but I suspect that the locals and the police might get to know the regular rule breakers and make a few checks to catch them out. A more serious offence of falsifying evidence might also focus some minds.
Much more important would be the ability to spot those who travel more than necessary to exercise, given that we have no legal obligations to carry id at the moment.

Mojo · 6 Apr 2020

I would really hope there is no 1 Hr limit on exercise or a ban on driving. We are driving to our allotment and a visit usually takes a couple of hours as we are still setting it up, as well as preparing for the summer with planting.

Bletchleyite · 6 Apr 2020

Mojo said:
I would really hope there is no 1 Hr limit on exercise or a ban on driving. We are driving to our allotment and a visit usually takes a couple of hours as we are still setting it up, as well as preparing for the summer with planting.

Tending an allotment isn't really exercise either. It's one that could do with being added as a specific exemption due to the (wartime-style) benefit to the food supply.

Tetchytyke · 6 Apr 2020

111-111-1 said:
Sorry for being unclear I was referring to Catherine Calderwood getting her P45 costing more than any fine she was likely to recieve.

Ah right, thought you meant the woman in Newcastle.

As I said above, I didn't think Calderwood should lose her job- just get a FPN.

C J Snarzell said:
I wouldn't like to think what would happen if the UK goes into full lockdown as the implications are imense.

This is mainly why I'm despairing of the heavy-handed approach from some police forces now. Because in 4-6 weeks, when even mild-mannered people are getting restless, they're going to need the goodwill they're gladly torching now.

Bletchleyite said:
We do however need something to prevent the honeypotting that is still going on in city parks.

The honeypotting is happening in areas where most people do not have their own outdoor space to sit in. You're much more likely to maintain the fundamental parts of the lockdown for longer if allowances are made for people who don't have a garden to sit in.

I'm of the view that restricting numbers is a much more pragmatic way to manage any potential issues.

Mojo · 6 Apr 2020

Bletchleyite said:
Tending an allotment isn't really exercise either. It's one that could do with being added as a specific exemption due to the (wartime-style) benefit to the food supply.

Incorrect. It was clearly stated by the government on many media outlets on the Tuesday morning after the announcement was made that visiting allotments is a perfectly legitimate exercise.

hexagon789 · 6 Apr 2020

Butts said:
Headline on this Mornings "I" Newspaper ......(Scotland Edition)

"Medical Officer sanctioned over visits to Holiday Home"

This is really not good enough, the biggest story in Scotland this Morning and they failed to "Hold The Front Page" to include it.

The news broke around 10pm so how long does it take to send a new front page up the wire to Glasgow where it is printed. The same often happens with Football Matches with a late kick off, final result not included in sports pages.

And she since resigned, about 12 hours after the news went public yesterday.

Meerkat · 6 Apr 2020

Bletchleyite said:
It might also have a long-term beneficial public health effect, as perhaps it's causing people who normally didn't exercise to want to do so, and maybe they will continue in the long term.

I was thinking that.
Must be a lot of people who have discovered a nice local walk they didn’t know existed and will keep going there in the future.
Or people who have found that walking to the shops is really quite easy and/or pleasant.
From the look (and sound!!) of them there are quite a few bikes being ridden that have just been rediscovered in the depths of sheds and garages....

scotrail158713 · 6 Apr 2020

Tetchytyke said:
As I said above, I didn't think Calderwood should lose her job- just get a FPN.

I don’t think she lost her job - I think she resigned by her own choice. (With maybe a bit of pressure)

ainsworth74 · 6 Apr 2020

scotrail158713 said:
I don’t think she lost her job - I think she resigned by her own choice. (With maybe a bit of pressure)

Nicola Sturgeon was on BBC Breakfast this morning and very much gave the impression that she'd reached the same conclusion as the Chief Medical Officer that their position was untenable. So I rather suspect that if she hadn't resigned she would have been sacked.

Mojo said:
Incorrect. It was clearly stated by the government on many media outlets on the Tuesday morning after the announcement was made that visiting allotments is a perfectly legitimate exercise.

I've not worked on an allotment since I was child but I recall it being very good exercise!

111-111-1 · 6 Apr 2020

scotrail158713 said:
I don’t think she lost her job - I think she resigned by her own choice. (With maybe a bit of pressure)

Whichever way she went her position was untenable.

In a position of authority people must be seen to be an example. Making the mistake once, even if it was a "genuine" reason to shut the house down, was bad enough but twice? If she had not been caught out would she have gone to Fife next weekend? Politicians and other officials have been sacked or resigned for far less. In the press conference her apology appeared to be very light and she seemed more upset about being caught out and any comments that had been made,

The sad thing is that an expert has been lost in the middle of this, hopefully in a quiet background way her knowledge will still be available to the authorities without her being paid massive fees.

Bletchleyite · 6 Apr 2020

Mojo said:
Incorrect. It was clearly stated by the government on many media outlets on the Tuesday morning after the announcement was made that visiting allotments is a perfectly legitimate exercise.

I would personally move it into a different category should there be felt to be a need to limit time out of the home or driving for exercise. It's arguably more important than exercise because it also produces food.

Bletchleyite · 6 Apr 2020

Tetchytyke said:
I'm of the view that restricting numbers is a much more pragmatic way to manage any potential issues.

In what way? By reducing the time (or distance) out of the home is to me the only practical way to do that - if everyone is only allowed out for an hour, fewer will be out at any given time.

Arglwydd Golau · 6 Apr 2020

111-111-1 said:
The sad thing is that an expert has been lost in the middle of this, hopefully in a quiet background way her knowledge will still be available to the authorities without her being paid massive fees.

I really do think we have to be careful about the use of the word 'expert' (as I've said before!). A quick look at Wiki shows that her background and experience was in Obstetrics and Gynecology...not Public Health.

CaptainHaddock · 6 Apr 2020

Mojo said:
Bristol reported that they were closing their parks before the nationwide lockdown was announced, but all they did was close the playgrounds (as did every other council as per the national rules). At least this is what they did at the parks in north Bristol near where my parents live (the view from their house looks out across one and they are near others.)

Same in Leeds. Kids' playgrounds are closed but the parks are still open as normal and, from what I've seen on my daily walks, are well used but by no means packed.

Tetchytyke · 6 Apr 2020

Bletchleyite said:
By reducing the time (or distance) out of the home is to me the only practical way to do that

Because locking people up in tiny homes with no outdoor space is going to cause more social unrest- and sooner- than just letting them sit in the park with a book and a bottle of pop.

As I've repeatedly said, it's easy to throw stones about people in parks when you're in a big house with a big garden. I've lived in a bedsit in the roof of a townhouse in London, it's claustrophobic enough even when you can get out. Damn right I'd see no harm in sitting in Highgate Woods with a book if I was still there. I'd go round the twist otherwise.

My garden here is gorgeous, see the photo, so it's a pleasure to sit in it. I can happily social distance and sit under a tree with a book and a bottle of Fanta. So I do. You won't find me bending the spirit of the rules; I don't need to.

But I'm aware just how lucky I am!

Butts · 6 Apr 2020

Arglwydd Golau said:
I really do think we have to be careful about the use of the word 'expert' (as I've said before!). A quick look at Wiki shows that her background and experience was in Obstetrics and Gynecology...not Public Health.

To be fair she had been in situ for five years and had generally been praised for her contribution and delivery up until this faux pas. The Irish Lass was certainly a lot nicer to look at than her Welsh and English counterparts.

So middle class she virtually oozed granola and hockey sticks !!

Arglwydd Golau · 6 Apr 2020

Butts said:
To be fair she had been in situ for five years and had generally been praised for her contribution and delivery up until this faux pas. The Irish Lass was certainly a lot nicer to look at than her Welsh and English counterparts.

So middle class she virtually oozed granola and hockey sticks !!

Oh, I'm not questioning her ability in the role as CMO, I just don't like the tag 'expert' attached to everyone in that sort of position at the moment.
I couldn't possibly comment on her appearance vis a vis her UK couterparts!

westv · 6 Apr 2020

Butts said:
So middle class she virtually oozed granola and hockey sticks !!

111-111-1 · 6 Apr 2020

Arglwydd Golau said:
I really do think we have to be careful about the use of the word 'expert' (as I've said before!). A quick look at Wiki shows that her background and experience was in Obstetrics and Gynecology...not Public Health.

I hope she had the relevant experience to do the job. She would also have had specialist advisors. I'd trust the CV she sent on her appointment to the job rather than WIKI for her CV.

Enforcement of the new rules on social distancing, unnecessary journeys etc.

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