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The future of train driving

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donny12

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Hi All

Apologies if this is already on another thread - if so please point me in the right direction.

I am currently applying for train driver jobs (applying for things as they come up). I’m 25 years old so a lot of years ahead of me should I get a driving role.

One area that concerns me about becoming a driver is the future prospects of drivers and more specifically the impact of driverless trains. Is it still realistic to hope to have a 35/40 year career as a driver, or am I signing up to something that is going to be redundant in a few years time?

I realise nobody can predict the future, but any guidance around what’s happening in the industry and what people’s informed predictions might be would be really good to understand, before committing to a career as a driver.

It’s something I have personally dreamt of doing since I was small, fingers crossed there’s still a future in this, but all honesty appreciate!

Thanks in advance for any help and replies :)
 
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plarailfan

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There will be train drivers for many years to come. Even HS2 will have train drivers and that has not even been built yet, so I wouldn't worry about driverless trains in the UK. There's a few driverless trains in London, but it will be decades before anything large scale happens, as there are too many situations and events, where a driver would be required to respond and interact with others.
 

king_walnut

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Driverless trains are hundreds of years away.

If you imagine that people now in their late 20's will be nearing retirement by the time HS2 opens, then there's really nothing to worry about. Anything involving major infrastructure change on the railway takes decades and billions. Crossrail isn't even open yet.
 

387star

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Skill may be reduced and wages may suffer (reducing training etc) although you'd hope existing drivers would be protected.

There's certainly a job there for many years and for the foreseeable the pay is incredible . A lucky position to be in given the state of play.
 

ShunterWOK

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I'd imagine they'd have to electrify alot more of the railway than they currently have. I wouldnt of thought they could run a driverless diesel train anywhere anytime soon so I think drivers are safe for a good few decades yet
 

theking

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I would worry yourself more about getting the job than anything else, you haven't even got a key yet so worrying about driverless trains is a moot point.
 

Mills444

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I'd imagine they'd have to electrify alot more of the railway than they currently have. I wouldnt of thought they could run a driverless diesel train anywhere anytime soon so I think drivers are safe for a good few decades yet
Why not? bar the political and environmental issues.
 

jezzer34

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uk
Hi All

Apologies if this is already on another thread - if so please point me in the right direction.

I am currently applying for train driver jobs (applying for things as they come up). I’m 25 years old so a lot of years ahead of me should I get a driving role.

One area that concerns me about becoming a driver is the future prospects of drivers and more specifically the impact of driverless trains. Is it still realistic to hope to have a 35/40 year career as a driver, or am I signing up to something that is going to be redundant in a few years time?

I realise nobody can predict the future, but any guidance around what’s happening in the industry and what people’s informed predictions might be would be really good to understand, before committing to a career as a driver.

It’s something I have personally dreamt of doing since I was small, fingers crossed there’s still a future in this, but all honesty appreciate!

Thanks in advance for any help and replies :)
i'm very much in the same position as you. You make a great point. gl with your dream. i have made my first talent pool and continue to dream of becoming a train driver while sitting in a pool.
Clearly you're thinking sensibly about the future. With that approach and thought process with or without train driving im sure you're in for a successful future.
 

ST

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i'm very much in the same position as you. You make a great point. gl with your dream. i have made my first talent pool and continue to dream of becoming a train driver while sitting in a pool.
Clearly you're thinking sensibly about the future. With that approach and thought process with or without train driving im sure you're in for a successful future.

I echo the above. It is great that you are thinking about the future and raise a point that will no doubt worry others. I have seen previous posts about the topic, but it was a while ago.

Good luck in pursuing your dream.
 

SlimJim1694

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Driverless trains are not coming any time soon on the mainline. Thameslink has ATO enabled through the core but its not in full use yet as far as I know. Crossrail will have it too, but these systems will still need to be driven manually at each end. I expect HS2 (if it ever opens) will be ATO on the new section too. I'd be more worried if I was on the underground or Glasgow subway. I'm a driver and I'm not worried about it at all. Even if it does come to a line you work on, you can't fight it so you can either choose to work with it or move somewhere else. No point worrying about something you can't control - As others have said, I'd be more worried about getting the job in the first place and then keeping it, because (in many respects) these are things you can. Good luck with it all.
 

Bletchleyite

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I'm not sure I'd be worried about LU, at least not yet. I do see the future of the mainline (on a longer horizon, e.g. 20+ years) to be "guard only operation" (I consider totally unstaffed trains unlikely; the British public isn't well-behaved enough, particularly not in an emergency) along the lines of the DLR.

While that does work (ish) on the DLR, LU is just too busy to be guarded these days - hence the "guard" sitting in the driver's cab at the front on the ATO lines. I can see that arrangement persisting for many years even if all lines go to ATO.
 

WrongRoad

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I think the drivers role will become more of a systems monitoring role rather than manually driving the train.

SWR new 701 units are being fitted with ABDO (Automatic Braking Door Opening) so the technology is there and being installed in a somewhat bit by bit way.

The cost of implementing these systems is always going to be the issue in having a fully automated system, so the drivers job should be around for sometime yet.
 

Need2

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Just a reminder to all those that say it won't happen in my lifetime etc etc etc.

I got my first mobile phone about 30 years ago and couldn't see the point of them!
I bought my first pc 21 years ago when the internet was a 'new fangled' idea!
How long have smart phones been 'out'?

I'm not saying driverless trains are coming antytime soon but technology is evolving at such a pace, you would be a fool to discount anything.
 

telstarbox

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Smartphones/mobile phones are really just convergence of existing technology (basically merging a PC with a wireless telephone connection) rather than a complete transformation though.
 

Timpg

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Let’s put it this way...
A couple of sections of one of my routes is still operated via semaphore signals.
Another route, the signaller gets out and opens the gate for a level crossing next to his box..
I’m comfortable that driverless trains through these sections, are probably not gonna be in my lifetime.
I’m a trainee too, with plenty of years of work ahead of me lol!!
 

class 9

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The only driver less trains in the world are on isolated systems with one type of traction, not like the mixed users of the UK mainline.
It will happen in the future, but a long way off.
 

SlimJim1694

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Just a reminder to all those that say it won't happen in my lifetime etc etc etc.

I got my first mobile phone about 30 years ago and couldn't see the point of them!
I bought my first pc 21 years ago when the internet was a 'new fangled' idea!
How long have smart phones been 'out'?

I'm not saying driverless trains are coming antytime soon but technology is evolving at such a pace, you would be a fool to discount anything.

I'm speaking from my experience of how upgrade projects on the railway are run and how hopelessly late and bodged and over-budget they are. The technology is there to have all lines electrified and track circuit block signalled but here we are in 2020 still with much of the railway run on absolute block and token block, electrification projects cancelled, the complete shambles of Crossrail and HS2. The technology for driverless trains has existed for many years but the organisation and funding of the railways means there is no danger for anyone driving trains today to worry about losing their job to a computer. And even if it did happen, so what? Youd still have a job on the train monitoring it. It might pay less but why worry... its outside your control.
 

Dave1987

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20 Oct 2012
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4,563
Hi All

Apologies if this is already on another thread - if so please point me in the right direction.

I am currently applying for train driver jobs (applying for things as they come up). I’m 25 years old so a lot of years ahead of me should I get a driving role.

One area that concerns me about becoming a driver is the future prospects of drivers and more specifically the impact of driverless trains. Is it still realistic to hope to have a 35/40 year career as a driver, or am I signing up to something that is going to be redundant in a few years time?

I realise nobody can predict the future, but any guidance around what’s happening in the industry and what people’s informed predictions might be would be really good to understand, before committing to a career as a driver.

It’s something I have personally dreamt of doing since I was small, fingers crossed there’s still a future in this, but all honesty appreciate!

Thanks in advance for any help and replies :)

At your age *any* industry or career path, you choose to go down see changes in the way that industry operates. There is going to be a good few years before driverless trains come onto the mainline I can assure you. Will there be changes in which the industry operates? Yes. Will roles evolve over time? Yes. But you only have to look at the way the industry adopts new technology to understand why it is still operating the way it is. We have a lot of new trains out and about at the moment with enormous amounts of "revolutionary" technology onboard. Yet this technology is suffering from a massive dose of 'real-world-itous'. Or what works extremely well in a computer screen on a computer model does not stand up to the real-world test with infinite variables. So my advice to you if you are wanting a career as a train driver is to go for it! Yes it may not be the same job role totally for the neat 20, 30, 40 years but I doubt the railway is suddenly not going to need train drivers with the next two decades. (We still have completely obsolete century-old signalling systems in place despite the fact that modern 3 and 4 aspect colour light, track circuit block signalling has been around for a very very long time already)
 

Dave1987

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Just a reminder to all those that say it won't happen in my lifetime etc etc etc.

I got my first mobile phone about 30 years ago and couldn't see the point of them!
I bought my first pc 21 years ago when the internet was a 'new fangled' idea!
How long have smart phones been 'out'?

I'm not saying driverless trains are coming antytime soon but technology is evolving at such a pace, you would be a fool to discount anything.

Technology is evolving at a dramatic pace yet we still have lots of the network controlled by century-old signalling systems where a man/women physically pull a lever to get a signal to come off. Its taken them years and years to decide which part of the network will be first to be ETCS level 2. I am pretty certain I can bet that the 25yr old OP can have a very decent career before the "driverless train" is coming. I remember about 4 or 5 years ago on here several people were debating whether the advent and installation of ETCS would mean drivers would be obsolete within 10 years or so. Years on and the first ETCS level 2 installation is not completed yet. I think people can quite safely say that it is not going to happen for a very very long time.
 

Dave1987

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I'm not sure I'd be worried about LU, at least not yet. I do see the future of the mainline (on a longer horizon, e.g. 20+ years) to be "guard only operation" (I consider totally unstaffed trains unlikely; the British public isn't well-behaved enough, particularly not in an emergency) along the lines of the DLR.

While that does work (ish) on the DLR, LU is just too busy to be guarded these days - hence the "guard" sitting in the driver's cab at the front on the ATO lines. I can see that arrangement persisting for many years even if all lines go to ATO.

Would you be willing to stake your mortgage/house on that? (hypothetically speaking)
 

theking

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Can't see where fully driverless staffless trains would work anyway, you'd need a person on board just incase of failure or an emergency.

The lines where driverless would work are high density metro lines eg lul, overground with short gaps between stations but they're too busy for the staff to be effective on the train.
Even the dlr in the peaks the psa is at the front.

If there was a real appetite for driverless trains then crossrail would have been designed driverless for the full route as the only bits that needed ato mainline were between shenfield and stratford and the bit out west which tbh could have stayed with gwr as conventional.

Anyway as I've said why people are worried about driverless trains when they haven't even got a key beats me you have soooooo much more to worry about before you even get a year into train driving.

Application.
Paper sift.
Online tests.
Psychometrics
MMI
DMI
Medical
Training
Interim assessments.
Final exam.
Driver manager assessments.
Yearly rules
Not having an incident twps/spad/overrun/trap&drag etc etc etc etc.
 

43066

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Technology is evolving at a dramatic pace yet we still have lots of the network controlled by century-old signalling systems where a man/women physically pull a lever to get a signal to come off. Its taken them years and years to decide which part of the network will be first to be ETCS level 2. I am pretty certain I can bet that the 25yr old OP can have a very decent career before the "driverless train" is coming. I remember about 4 or 5 years ago on here several people were debating whether the advent and installation of ETCS would mean drivers would be obsolete within 10 years or so. Years on and the first ETCS level 2 installation is not completed yet. I think people can quite safely say that it is not going to happen for a very very long time.

^This^.

Absolute block and semaphore signals are scheduled to remain in use in some areas until the 2040s(?). ETCS will be a game changer, but the role out is going to be piecemeal, slow, and keeps slipping.

Given that we are likely to now be heading into a recession, I doubt Network Rail will be away with money for the next few years, so further slippage is likely.
 

donny12

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Thanks all for some very informative replies. It appears that a career as a driver is still one with great prospects! All jobs will evolve with technology over the coming decades and the railway will be just the same, albeit ironically for an industry where infrastructure and technology should be at the heart it seems the rate of change is a lot slower than it should be, for mainly economic and political reasons.

Just in response to those saying I should focus on getting a job as a driver first, without wanting to start an argument, I think you’re missing the point somewhat. I am looking to understand the career prospects of a driver before going through such a rigorous process, for the very reason that it is a long and challenging process and needs to be worth undertaking and giving my all. I also currently have a very stable job with good prospects itself, hence to jump into driving would be a significant switch and one I want to make sure is worth it for the long run.
 

ainsworth74

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Let's stick to the topic please. ETCS is an interesting subject in it's own right but in the way we were going on this thread was very off-topic.

Thanks,
ainsworth74
 

irish_rail

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Just a reminder to all those that say it won't happen in my lifetime etc etc etc.

I got my first mobile phone about 30 years ago and couldn't see the point of them!
I bought my first pc 21 years ago when the internet was a 'new fangled' idea!
How long have smart phones been 'out'?

I'm not saying driverless trains are coming antytime soon but technology is evolving at such a pace, you would be a fool to discount anything.
Yes but mobile phones and smartphones have brought about great benefits to people's lives.
I fail to see how the train being driven by a computer instead of a person on say a London to Plymouth journey really adds anything to enrich our existence.
The ONLY areas where there MAY be a slight benefit is on highly intensive metro routes where trains run every minute or so.
Other than that it isn't worth the enormous costs of implementation .
 

tlionhart

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Yes but mobile phones and smartphones have brought about great benefits to people's lives.
I fail to see how the train being driven by a computer instead of a person on say a London to Plymouth journey really adds anything to enrich our existence.
The ONLY areas where there MAY be a slight benefit is on highly intensive metro routes where trains run every minute or so.
Other than that it isn't worth the enormous costs of implementation .

People only think of London when they come to these conclusions...They look at the track and station and think...”That’s easy!” If they had a clue of the railway, then they’ll realise driverless trains are a long way off! Network rail have ran out of money to electrify Didcot to Oxford. Also if some of these people with ‘driverless trains’ ideas, drove down the B&H they’ll soon realise there’s more to it. If the system breaks, a technician is going to be coming from some distance...Also NR are busy with tree cutting at the moment...So to answer the Q. Driverless trains are going to be a long way off.
 

najaB

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Driverless trains are hundreds of years away.
I wouldn't say hundreds. Probably more like somewhere between 20 and 30 years. Trains themselves are increasingly computerised, and the really old signalling systems are being replaced by more modern ones - ECTS rollout starts in earnest in the next couple of years.
If you imagine that people now in their late 20's will be nearing retirement by the time HS2 opens
If you consider late 30's/early 40's to be 'near retirement' then yes, I guess so.
 

Dave1987

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I wouldn't say hundreds. Probably more like somewhere between 20 and 30 years. Trains themselves are increasingly computerised, and the really old signalling systems are being replaced by more modern ones - ECTS rollout starts in earnest in the next couple of years.

Forgive me if I am extremely dubious about your statements there.

Trains themselves are increasingly computerised
Yes they are but as we are finding in the real world half the functions on new trains don't work properly yet or are turned off because they are hellishly unreliable. I believe it will be years before the new fleets we currently have on the mainline will be fully "bedded in" will all functions working and reliable. Lots of new stock don't even have the seat availability systems working correctly yet because the systems engineers are still trying to get the basic functionality of trains working reliably before starting on the nice to have's. Making trains more and more complicated too quickly is only going to result in major failures on the mainlines.

the really old signalling systems are being replaced by more modern ones - ECTS rollout starts in earnest in the next couple of years

Believe it when I see it!! ETCS rollout on the East coast has been pushed back numerous times. They currently want it to enable 140mph running rather than anything to do with driverless trains.
 
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