Government - Increase use of public transport

Bletchleyite · 4 Apr 2020

underbank said:
But not a convenient way for bus passengers to get from Lancaster bus station to Lancaster railway station for onward travel. It's about a mile walk uphill, after a slow tortuous bus journey.

It is, but a lot of buses call at the "secondary bus station" down the side of Primark, which is probably considered to be the actual bus station by many people rather than the inconveniently located "proper" one. That's only a couple of hundred yards from the station albeit up a fair hill. In a way it's a bit like Preston - a good many people get off at stops nearer the centre, not the inconveniently-located bus station which is in some ways just a depot.

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DynamicSpirit · 4 Apr 2020

The Ham said:
A local MP to me was calling for Crossrail services to be extended to Basingstoke so as to release capacity on the Basingstoke Woking services. Unfortunately Basingstoke to Canary Wharf is faster via Waterloo than using Crossrail and misses the point that actually the vast majority of passengers get on the services at the stations between Basingstoke and Woking.

Oh God! At this rate Crossrail will be, Weymouth to Dover taking about 5 hours end-to-end

Bletchleyite · 4 Apr 2020

DynamicSpirit said:
Oh God! At this rate Crossrail will be, Weymouth to Dover taking about 5 hours end-to-end

Is there a reason it couldn't be more like Thameslink, i.e. two regional express routes joined through central London?

DynamicSpirit · 4 Apr 2020

Meerkat said:
But for the money spent on new stations you should be able to speed up the bus journeys for far more people, and the bus is more likely to go near where the passengers want to go.

You'd have a lot of trouble speeding up bus journeys between Lancaster and Morecambe. Massively congested roads along much of the route, and within Lancaster City Centre. Definitely massively desirable to speed the buses up round there, but offhand I can't think how you'd sensibly do it without either a significant reduction in traffic in the area, or building some kind of new dedicated road for buses (which would come mega-expensive with the River Lune in the way). I actually suspect Lancaster-Morecambe with the extension to Morecambe West End could be a rare example of a place where it would actually be more cost-effective to improve rail links than to improve bus links.

DynamicSpirit · 4 Apr 2020

Bletchleyite said:
Is there a reason it couldn't be more like Thameslink, i.e. two regional express routes joined through central London?

I think it would be tricky because, compared to Thameslink, Crossrail has a LOT more stations that every train would have to stop at. Thameslink trains stop everywhere between London Bridge and St. Pancras, which is 5 stops close together - already quite a bit for a regional express. Crossrail would need to stop everywhere between at least Abbey Wood and Paddington, which is a lot further and arguably puts it firmly in the 'metro' category. It'll be used heavily by passengers making trips like Liverpool Street-Tottenham Court Road and Farringdon-Bond Street, which arguably requires quite different kind of stock from what you'd want on a regional express from Dover or Basingstoke.

Also, if you want Crossrail to run like a regional express east of Stratford and west of Paddington, then you'd have to find alternative terminating arrangements for the stoppers along those routes. Possible I guess, but not cheap.

Meerkat · 4 Apr 2020

HSTEd said:
Well given that the railway follows the route of at least one of the bus routes, I am not sure whether "speeding up the bus journeys for far more people" is really realistic.

Bus priority measures would help more services, from a wider area

HSTEd said:
Also speeding up bus journeys isg oing to be hard given that all you need to make a big difference to this line are two crossovers and a couple of one platform stations.

There is no such concept as “all you need” in the expensive world of railway infrastructure.

HSTEd said:
Don't get much in the way of busway for that.

Doesn’t have to be full fat busway, there are all sorts of other measures

HSTEd said:
But if this is the case, why is the railway still open?

To get to Heysham power station and because it’s ridiculously hard to close a station

underbank said:
It's not just Heysham, it's the West End of Morecambe too that would benefit from a new station.

Most of whom would have to walk nearly as far to get to the new station, to get on a train that then has to go into Morecambe and reverse. Probably quicker and cheaper to just go to Morecambe

thenorthern · 6 Apr 2020

One of the problems I find in many relatively large places is that rail transport is only useful to get in and out of the settlement but not useful for internal travel within the settlement.

Examples of this include Stoke-on-Trent, Derby, Northampton, Doncaster and Leicester. All of these places either only have a single station within the council covering the settlement or have one main station or a single main station with some small suburban halts dotted around the suburbs with relatively infrequent service levels.

edwin_m · 6 Apr 2020

thenorthern said:
One of the problems I find in many relatively large places is that rail transport is only useful to get in and out of the settlement but not useful for internal travel within the settlement.

Examples of this include Stoke-on-Trent, Derby, Northampton, Doncaster and Leicester. All of these places either only have a single station within the council covering the settlement or have one main station or a single main station with some small suburban halts dotted around the suburbs with relatively infrequent service levels.

One reason for those halts being little served is that the fact they have to be on the railway means they're probably in the wrong place for housing etc, so get very few passengers. Trains travel much further afield so the inconvenience to through passengers of stopping several times in the same town outweighs the benefit to the occasional passenger actually using them. And with railway capacity at a premium in many places it often just isn't possible to stop very many trains.

With a few exceptions heavy rail just isn't the right mode for journeys within small and medium-sized cities. Although slower, the bus can be much more frequent and reach people's destinations more closely, which makes it more convenient for most travellers. Hence the answer to urban transport is to improve the bus networks, introducing trams where demand warrants them, and introduce good interchange and integration between them and with the rail network so people can access the train for the longer journeys it is more suited to.

The Ham · 7 Apr 2020

edwin_m said:
One reason for those halts being little served is that the fact they have to be on the railway means they're probably in the wrong place for housing etc, so get very few passengers. Trains travel much further afield so the inconvenience to through passengers of stopping several times in the same town outweighs the benefit to the occasional passenger actually using them. And with railway capacity at a premium in many places it often just isn't possible to stop very many trains.

With a few exceptions heavy rail just isn't the right mode for journeys within small and medium-sized cities. Although slower, the bus can be much more frequent and reach people's destinations more closely, which makes it more convenient for most travellers. Hence the answer to urban transport is to improve the bus networks, introducing trams where demand warrants them, and introduce good interchange and integration between them and with the rail network so people can access the train for the longer journeys it is more suited to.

Indeed, although there can be places where there's some spare capacity on existing lines where it's possible to add in metro services rather than build a new network for trams.

Whilst that's unlikely to result in the frequency which trams would provide it could provide faster journey times and likely at a lower cost.

al78 · 7 Apr 2020

edwin_m said:
With a few exceptions heavy rail just isn't the right mode for journeys within small and medium-sized cities. Although slower, the bus can be much more frequent and reach people's destinations more closely, which makes it more convenient for most travellers. Hence the answer to urban transport is to improve the bus networks, introducing trams where demand warrants them, and introduce good interchange and integration between them and with the rail network so people can access the train for the longer journeys it is more suited to.

Different modes of transport are best suited for different situations. I've always thought of heavy rail as for moderate to long journeys and buses best for local journeys within a city or between towns that don't have a frequent rail service (e.g. Horsham to Dorking). I hardly ever use buses because for local travel, a bicycle is quicker and more convenient (and cheaper). When I visit family in Salford and use rail, I get a train to Piccadilly then cycle the five miles to Swinton. That is quicker than walking from the railway station to the bus station, then waiting for a bus that inevitably gets held up in traffic on one of the primary routes in and out of Manchester.

PeterC · 7 Apr 2020

al78 said:
Different modes of transport are best suited for different situations. I've always thought of heavy rail as for moderate to long journeys and buses best for local journeys within a city or between towns that don't have a frequent rail service (e.g. Horsham to Dorking). I hardly ever use buses because for local travel, a bicycle is quicker and more convenient (and cheaper). When I visit family in Salford and use rail, I get a train to Piccadilly then cycle the five miles to Swinton. That is quicker than walking from the railway station to the bus station, then waiting for a bus that inevitably gets held up in traffic on one of the primary routes in and out of Manchester.

I think that it is that "last five miles" that makes the difference between using the train and jumping in the car. The bus needs to go from outside the station, not from a stop on the other side of the town centre, both during the day and in the evening seven days a week.

Llandudno · 7 Apr 2020

PeterC said:
I think that it is that "last five miles" that makes the difference between using the train and jumping in the car. The bus needs to go from outside the station, not from a stop on the other side of the town centre, both during the day and in the evening seven days a week.

Yes, I agree wholeheartedly, it is the journey to/from the station at both origin and destination stations that can make all the difference as to whether you use public transport or take the car.

Buses need better access to stations with through fares/joint ticketing. Plusbus is good for your destination station but not as useful for your origin station as you can’t buy the bus ticket in advance online or on the bus itself!

Evening and Sunday bus frequencies in most areas of very poor or even non existent, if you have travelled long distance by train, would you wait 30+ minutes for a bus home? You would probably use an expensive taxi, which at some stations charge a premium from rail stations because the taxi operators are charged a fee by the rail operator for picking up there!

You then have to factor in the cost, if you already have a car, then with petrol now hovering at around £1.10 per litre then public transport in most cases can’t really compete price wise even with only the driver in the car and no passengers.

And don’t get me started on the cost of car parking charges at stations for rail users...

Meerkat · 7 Apr 2020

Personally speaking it’s a knowledge thing.
I know I can open the National Rail app and it will tell me when the train is, how much it will cost, and whether it’s on time.
Is there such a thing for buses? If there is why haven’t I been told?
I can look at a map and find the train station easily, is there an official app that would tell me where the bus stops are and which one I want?
I know I can buy a train ticket by cash or card. Can I buy the bus ticket by card? If I want to pay by cash do I have to have the correct change or buy the ticket from a machine?

Bletchleyite · 7 Apr 2020

Talking of PlusBus at origin, given that most bus companies now use barcode-based ticketing systems an interface to allow print-at-home or mobile versions of PlusBus at origin would not seem particularly hard to do.

Meerkat · 7 Apr 2020

Bletchleyite said:
Talking of PlusBus at origin, given that most bus companies now use barcode-based ticketing systems an interface to allow print-at-home or mobile versions of PlusBus at origin would not seem particularly hard to do.

I think plus bus is less important than being able to use contactless cards so I don’t need to worry about the fare.

Llandudno · 7 Apr 2020

Bletchleyite said:
Talking of PlusBus at origin, given that most bus companies now use barcode-based ticketing systems an interface to allow print-at-home or mobile versions of PlusBus at origin would not seem particularly hard to do.

Perhaps it is not in the bus operations interest to offer Plusbus....

Maybe they would rather passengers pay the full fare, as it is doubtful that Plusbus actually generates many additional bus journeys?

Bletchleyite · 7 Apr 2020

Meerkat said:
I think plus bus is less important than being able to use contactless cards so I don’t need to worry about the fare.

That's true. The thing that most puts me off bus use is cash. Same with taxis. Now I can pay by card I am using them both more (present short-term situation excepted).

Meerkat · 7 Apr 2020

Bletchleyite said:
That's true. The thing that most puts me off bus use is cash. Same with taxis. Now I can pay by card I am using them both more (present short-term situation excepted).

If the government had a policy that every bus accepted contactless it would make a big difference.
Lots of folk then wouldn’t even worry how much it cost, like all the folk who just tap the machine in the bar without even knowing what the charge is.

Bletchleyite · 7 Apr 2020

Meerkat said:
If the government had a policy that every bus accepted contactless it would make a big difference.
Lots of folk then wouldn’t even worry how much it cost, like all the folk who just tap the machine in the bar without even knowing what the charge is.

Most of them do now, the Ticketer machine seems almost a national standard! I would prefer it to be "touch in touch out", though, as that "hides" the fare even more and so further encourages use.

edwin_m · 7 Apr 2020

Meerkat said:
Personally speaking it’s a knowledge thing.
I know I can open the National Rail app and it will tell me when the train is, how much it will cost, and whether it’s on time.
Is there such a thing for buses? If there is why haven’t I been told?
I can look at a map and find the train station easily, is there an official app that would tell me where the bus stops are and which one I want?

I think traveline.info is the nearest thing to an official app. While it's still far from perfect the availability of information on bus services is one thing that has improved dramatically over the past decade.

Bletchleyite · 7 Apr 2020

I don't know who runs it, but I find http://bustimes.org/ reliable for bus timetables. I think it's some individual doing it off the Traveline feeds.

Meerkat · 7 Apr 2020

Bletchleyite said:
Most of them do now, the Ticketer machine seems almost a national standard! I would prefer it to be "touch in touch out", though, as that "hides" the fare even more and so further encourages use.

edwin_m said:
I think traveline.info is the nearest thing to an official app. While it's still far from perfect the availability of information on bus services is one thing that has improved dramatically over the past decade.

Both these concepts need to be officially universal, the app (or a source that any developer can use) must be “official” and reliable (enforcement against operators who don’t maintain the feed), and then it needs advertising nationally.
I don’t think I am alone in having a bias against buses which means I exaggerate (to myself) the barriers to use. If the info was pushed a lot of people might look and find “oh, didn’t know a bus went there, and it’s quick...”
Need a slogan “buses are easy you know!”

The Ham · 8 Apr 2020

Llandudno said:
Yes, I agree wholeheartedly, it is the journey to/from the station at both origin and destination stations that can make all the difference as to whether you use public transport or take the car.

Buses need better access to stations with through fares/joint ticketing. Plusbus is good for your destination station but not as useful for your origin station as you can’t buy the bus ticket in advance online or on the bus itself!

Evening and Sunday bus frequencies in most areas of very poor or even non existent, if you have travelled long distance by train, would you wait 30+ minutes for a bus home? You would probably use an expensive taxi, which at some stations charge a premium from rail stations because the taxi operators are charged a fee by the rail operator for picking up there!

You then have to factor in the cost, if you already have a car, then with petrol now hovering at around £1.10 per litre then public transport in most cases can’t really compete price wise even with only the driver in the car and no passengers.

And don’t get me started on the cost of car parking charges at stations for rail users...

A lot of the cost of cars aren't obvious to the user, you pay £300 to £600 for a set of new tyres every 12-24 months and you don't add that to the cost per mile of your car (typically 2-6p per mile). Breakdown cover (which can be anything from £30 to £200 for the year, depending on the cover provided) and that's not counted either. Parking charges may only be a few pounds each time, but over a year they all add up. Likewise ask those other things which you may or may not buy like a bit of extra screenwash, car charger, dashcam, satnav, ice scraper, car wash/kit I was your car, new bulb, etc.

It all adds up and many people don't know the true cost of what their car actually costs them over the course of a year.

Even a fairly cheap lease car costing £150 a month is £1,800 before you've even driven it a single mile. In comparison that's nearly as much as a bus pass for a large area in Southern England (£1,860) for two adults which gives you unlimited travel. Even if you buy a £15,000 car and keep it for 15 years that's still more than a single bus pass and chances are as the car gets older your going to have to spend more to keep in going, which will push your annual costs up. Not least as you'll likely need to replace some expensive bits like timing belts, as well as replacing the battery a few times (which can easily be the equivalent of about £40 a year).

All those little things all soon start to add up. A few years ago I worked out that for many people, that they could (excluding fuel and the initial purchase cost) spend somewhere around £750 to £1,000 a year. Add in fuel, parking and purchase costs and it wouldn't be hard to be spending £3,000 a year (with lower milage cheap to buy being closer to towards £2,000 especially in more rural areas where parking is cheaper and there being no upper limit).

At £3,000 a year doing 7,000 miles it's not that different to the 45p a mile which the government allows you to claim tax free as expenses for business travel. Few would ever think that their costs were even as much as 30p a mile. Yet they probably are.

The Ham · 8 Apr 2020

Bletchleyite said:
Talking of PlusBus at origin, given that most bus companies now use barcode-based ticketing systems an interface to allow print-at-home or mobile versions of PlusBus at origin would not seem particularly hard to do.

If you are using trains semi frequently then I also believe that it's possible to buy plus bus (for either end of your journey) with train tickets online and pick them up in advance of the day of travel from a station.

PG · 8 Apr 2020

Meerkat said:
Personally speaking it’s a knowledge thing.
I know I can open the National Rail app and it will tell me when the train is, how much it will cost, and whether it’s on time.
Is there such a thing for buses? If there is why haven’t I been told?
I can look at a map and find the train station easily, is there an official app that would tell me where the bus stops are and which one I want?
I know I can buy a train ticket by cash or card. Can I buy the bus ticket by card? If I want to pay by cash do I have to have the correct change or buy the ticket from a machine?

I think many, many, ordinary people have the same concerns as you've expressed.

If only the bus companies could realise that just like TOCs benefit from the ATOC/RDG run nre.co.uk, that they too would benefit from one single UK-wide website where would-be passengers can access the same information about their journeys to and from the railway station. Although we have travelline.info it is far from being the equal of nre.co.uk in many respects.

IIRC the government has now compelled bus operators to make their data available in a common format, see this link
https://www.gov.uk/government/consultations/bus-services-act-2017-bus-open-data

Even with this I think it's going to take years before we get to see anything remotely approaching the ease of use and breadth of nre.co.uk for buses in the UK.

If the government are serious then they need to realise that, as others have pointed out, the final few miles are crucial in potential passengers minds in shaping the decision to not make the whole journey by car instead.

Llandudno · 8 Apr 2020

The Ham said:
A lot of the cost of cars aren't obvious to the user, you pay £300 to £600 for a set of new tyres every 12-24 months and you don't add that to the cost per mile of your car (typically 2-6p per mile). Breakdown cover (which can be anything from £30 to £200 for the year, depending on the cover provided) and that's not counted either. Parking charges may only be a few pounds each time, but over a year they all add up. Likewise ask those other things which you may or may not buy like a bit of extra screenwash, car charger, dashcam, satnav, ice scraper, car wash/kit I was your car, new bulb, etc.

It all adds up and many people don't know the true cost of what their car actually costs them over the course of a year.

Even a fairly cheap lease car costing £150 a month is £1,800 before you've even driven it a single mile. In comparison that's nearly as much as a bus pass for a large area in Southern England (£1,860) for two adults which gives you unlimited travel. Even if you buy a £15,000 car and keep it for 15 years that's still more than a single bus pass and chances are as the car gets older your going to have to spend more to keep in going, which will push your annual costs up. Not least as you'll likely need to replace some expensive bits like timing belts, as well as replacing the battery a few times (which can easily be the equivalent of about £40 a year).

All those little things all soon start to add up. A few years ago I worked out that for many people, that they could (excluding fuel and the initial purchase cost) spend somewhere around £750 to £1,000 a year. Add in fuel, parking and purchase costs and it wouldn't be hard to be spending £3,000 a year (with lower milage cheap to buy being closer to towards £2,000 especially in more rural areas where parking is cheaper and there being no upper limit).

At £3,000 a year doing 7,000 miles it's not that different to the 45p a mile which the government allows you to claim tax free as expenses for business travel. Few would ever think that their costs were even as much as 30p a mile. Yet they probably are.

I don’t actually think that the cost of bus travel is too much of an issue for regular, solo passengers, network season or day rover tickets tend to be reasonably priced, the standard single or day return for relatively short journeys are in general, disproportionately expensive. If two or more people are travelling a short distance then a taxi can work out cheaper on occasion.

The real issue is poor bus access to/from stations, reliability and poor frequencies especially after 6pm and at weekends.

Mind you Boris did say that he would introduce ‘turn up and go’ bus frequencies in our towns and cites and reinstate or improve evening bus services....

Let’s hope Boris gets better soon!

PG · 8 Apr 2020

Llandudno said:
Mind you Boris did say that he would introduce ‘turn up and go’ bus frequencies in our towns and cites and reinstate or improve evening bus services....

How long ago did he say that though ie pre Covid-19?

While I too hope that the promised improvements materialise, things said then may not be able to be followed through after this situation ends.

Llandudno · 8 Apr 2020

PG said:
How long ago did he say that though ie pre Covid-19?

While I too hope that the promised improvements materialise, things said then may not be able to be followed through after this situation ends.

I suspect many of the pre-Covid-19 promises may be deferred or cancelled.

HS2 - maybe?

cle · 8 Apr 2020

Everything needs to be integrated - look at Switzerland. The maps, fares and connections barely differentiate between modes. All these stupid parochial bus companies and horrible conglomerates, each city's own light rail networks and a few metros - they all need to be full integrated with rail and rail stations. As mentioned here, the rail station should be the nexus of a town or city's transport. Not a mall, or crummy bus station, or market square.

Add electric bikes and scooters in each main town (all about the last mile) and at main suburban rail stations to increase catchment, without car parking or kiss and rides. Finally, secure, proper bike parking everywhere to encourage that too - where journeys are easier or flatter!

One ticket, tape or account for all of the above - just make it seamless. Everything should be focused on UX and CX now, and nothing is more user friendly and simple than jumping on one's own car. That is the competition. Plus making parking a bitch, lack of productivity while driving and environmental/other cost factors. Make rail much cheaper, and trains much longer.

Infrastructure-wise - it's a bit of everything. Wires for all urban journeys, longer platforms and trains, grade separations and level crossing removals... anything to increase capacity.

Bletchleyite · 8 Apr 2020

cle said:
look at Switzerland. The maps, fares and connections barely differentiate between modes.

Out of interest, have you been there? Other than in the Verbund (like a PTE) areas integration is nowhere near as good as you suggest in practice.

The Netherlands is similar - indeed, until the OV-Chipkaart NS was totally separate from bus fares.

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