Goldfish62
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Same here.
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GWR Cornish Night Riviera Sleeper and GWR Class 57 updates from Long Rock
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Charlie Smythe
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Excuse me If I am totally wrong, but I saw something on another thread about there maybe being the posibility of extending the Night Riviera to load 9. Someone said that this would be done with the adition of one extra sleeping car, but I always thought that it was only load 7 meaning that It would increase to 8. Can a 57 manage 6 sleeper and 3 other coaches on the banks?
Charlie Smythe
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Reallly, I was always lead to believe that it was 7 with a potential increase to 8, but appreantly any increase will be to 9. Is the passengers numbers on the sleeper increasing enough to justify either one or two extra coaches? I is good to see the sleeper being extended, that's if it happens of course. Seeing as it has happended before I will assume that 6 sleeps at 43 tonne and 3 other coaches at 35 tonne for a total around 370 tonnes in all with passengers and equipment is well within the capabilites of a 57.
paulwestwood
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It's normally run as Load 7, but it runs as Load 8 on one night possibly two nights a week (Thursday & Friday's) if it runs as Load 9 the 9th coach is normally locked out of use as it's just a Depot Move.
Easily
Helvellyn
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I guess it depends whether adding an extra Sleeper has been included as part of the Direct Award franchise agreement. If so then I expect GWR will look to refurbish the ex-Caledonian Sleeper vehicles that have come down. But if not, it depends on how things pan out after COVID-19 - how much business will have been lost?
221129
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Load 8 on Thurs Fri Sun and Mon nights I believe.
Charlie Smythe
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Is there any information on passengers loading and if they're trending up or down year on year. Is the Night Sleeper becoming more or less popular and is it very profitable? Will it survice the next franchise/management contract .
47827
Member
Load 9 was fairly common during the summer around 2 decades ago. There were some services between London and Penzance at weekends that were booked to have 2x Motorail vans added onto trains that were usually 7x mk2s. Class 47s are on the same timing loads for planning purposes as their performance is relatively similar to the 57s that took over the sleeper work on the route around 2003/04. Going back to the 1980s and before it was a common event (especially in summer time) to see 10 or more carriages on services between London and Penzance with a single loco. The only thing to remember is that during the 3 autumnal months of the year and any other occasions of poor railhead conditions any longer formation will increase the risk of stalling in a small number of spots in Devon and Cornwall were gradients are taxing (especially if a second loco is ever dead in the consist for operational reasons). Other than that there is no reason it couldn't be done. I suspect it would be a seasonal strengthening for summer seasons or peak travel dates only.
Charlie Smythe
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Have passengers number increased or decreased in the last two decades or remained fairly flat as I would expect?
Charlie Smythe
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One thing to remember is that mk3 sleeper (I think) are around 43 tonne a lot heaver than a 33 tonne day coach. Load 8 with 5 sleeps and 3 day is around 330 tonne with pax and equipment and load 9 is around 375 with 6 sleeps and 3 days.
47827
Member
I'm afraid I can't answer that point as it's been nearly 18 years since I caught the sleepers. The gentleman from the traincrew who posted earlier may know the answer?
47827
Member
True, but there is a small loss of weight on the passenger front since a day carriage has the weight of a lot of passengers added in on busy trains. It's 2 passengers maximum per berth with some single occupation. The differential between mk3 types is also largely ignored by train planning software so the computer would probably say yes whether you had mostly sleepers or mostly day coaches. Either way it's been done before with similar or the same traction enough times to not cause a sweat especially if its generally shorter in the autumn.
co-tr-paul
Member
Just caught up due to current circumstances.
Passenger loadings have increased year on year and up until last year, was sorted by adjusting more berths from single to double. We now have 2 extra coaches in the fleet and plans were to include them in the daily consist but events have overtaken us.
As part of strategic reserve, all coaches were to be made available as NHS as accommodation London end but we have been stood down at moment, so everything is being heavy cleaned. It is currently hoped to resume some sort of service for may bank holiday but obviously, things may change. Restrictions apply regarding reporting any more. Keep safe everyone and follow.the guidelines.
Passenger loadings have increased year on year and up until last year, was sorted by adjusting more berths from single to double. We now have 2 extra coaches in the fleet and plans were to include them in the daily consist but events have overtaken us.
As part of strategic reserve, all coaches were to be made available as NHS as accommodation London end but we have been stood down at moment, so everything is being heavy cleaned. It is currently hoped to resume some sort of service for may bank holiday but obviously, things may change. Restrictions apply regarding reporting any more. Keep safe everyone and follow.the guidelines.
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Would the service only return once essential travel restrictions are lifted or part lifted?
What I'm asking is, is there any need for it during the essential travel period, like there is for the Caledonian Sleeper?
irish_rail
Established Member
What is noticeable is how few people opt for the seated coaches since the refurb. This has led to more demand for beds also.
Charlie Smythe
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I suppose that this can only be seen as a good thing seeing as it is a sleeper train. Of course there is the kitchen car, but how many day coaches? I assume 2.
It's good to see that the sleeper is becoming more popular over time.
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
The seats were done as they were because of commuters at the Cornish end using it, which has now stopped. Perhaps it would make sense to redo it given that that will not resume? Could ex-HST First Class seats be fitted in an airline layout, perhaps? That would, at fairly low cost, bring it into line with the Cally.
It's certainly a very useful service. Last autumn I had a day's business in the St Austell area. Didn't even consider driving there and back from East Anglia. Evening train from Diss into Liverpool Street, spot of dinner in town and then in bed by 11am prior to departure at midnight.
Woken up as requested with breakfast half an hour before arrival. 5 minute stroll to the leisure centre for a shower and then had a couple of coffees before being picked up by a colleague.
No other way of doing it unless I'd travelled earlier the day before and stayed in a hotel overnight = more time out of my day and more expensive train tickets travelling at the peaks.
Woken up as requested with breakfast half an hour before arrival. 5 minute stroll to the leisure centre for a shower and then had a couple of coffees before being picked up by a colleague.
No other way of doing it unless I'd travelled earlier the day before and stayed in a hotel overnight = more time out of my day and more expensive train tickets travelling at the peaks.
Mitchell Hurd
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London Paddington and Truro.
Penzance has a Sleeper lounge now as well with showers.
I was thinking more in terms of a nearby non railway location for each stop.
Yes I had the same thought. I didn't know St Austell at all, but 5 minutes on google/google maps established there was a gym within walking distance that was open at that time in the morning. £5 per session as a non-member, so I had a swim too. It did occur to me that there would be mutual benefit in marketing this to sleeper passengers. That said, I'm not sure how many other passengers alighted at St Austell.
Charlie Smythe
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That does suprise me. You could be quite a few tonnes out by letting the computer assume that all mk3's are 35 tonne when in fact 5 of the sleeper are 43. Although I suppose the differance isn't enough to make much differance to a loco with 2500+ hp.
Everyone seems to think that a 57 would manage with 375 tonnes trailing, but what about in very poor weather? Would that extra coach be the differance between not stalling and stalling.
You’re determined I’ll give you that...
Yes, strictly speaking the laws of physics dictate that when conditions reach a certain level, that 1 additional coach would be “the difference” between stalling and not stalling. But it’s a very narrow sweet spot, and well beyond what could be classed as normal poor conditions.
To underline - there is no concern at the ability of a 57 hauling a 9 vehicle sleeper formation over the Devon banks, in any weather that can reasonably be planned for. There are other, operational considerations that perhaps need more work - but it is physically possible.
47827
Member
I agree with you on the above points. And over the years a coach being added on (or even a couple) can tip something over the manageable weight especially in bad conditions. Although class 57s are essentially similar to a 47 occasionally the wheelslip protection technology has caused an odd one to stall climbing away from somewhere in poor railhead conditions where its predecessors got up albeit with risked tyre damage or strain on the generator, especially the prototype ETH one 57601 (which was got rid of promptly), which GW managed to improve on when the general batch were done.
There is some discretion for train planners to add fiddle time in if they think something will actually make a difference (say if you had a loaded freight or a heavier type of carriage) . In reality these sorts of schedules do tend to have a bit of breathing space for longer loco hauled trains. I think load 9 uses the load 10 timing load on computer software as a "for instance" which should be D345. Anything between 11 and 13 is timed for 13 (D455). Although unless the timers use a slower timing load or put recovery minutes into schedules frequently trains haven't allowed for dead locos in transit on the software even if booked. Currently at load 7 the Night Riveria is probably on D245 schedules although there is that much slack last time I checked a loco on 12 or 13 would potentially still get to Penzance on time albeit with a bit of extra coughing over Dainton etc and a sweat in autumn time.
Interestingly if the suggestion of hiring 67s had ever come into fruition, whilst they are better on the flat, or on lighter gradients and have a 5mph advantage including better acceleration they are more risky in poor railhead conditions on heavy trains so in the days of often weekly Eden Project railtours 20 years ago 47s were often still favoured as a 67 had to be piloted from Exeter or restricted to about load 10/11 as per the Lickey and Old Hill in the Midlands plus created fuel worries as they are heavy drinkers when the train supply is in use. They also have slightly more sensitive train heat supply than 57s and 47s which is to protect the loco. Based on all of that 57s are probably the best of the remaining options to continue running the service, even at longer loads (which they can manage generally with ease), and at least that saves re-training drivers or hiring any in off third parties.
Charlie Smythe
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If the sleeper ever did get popular enough to justify load 12 or maybe even 13 then a more powerful loco (preferably a Co-Co for adhesive weight) or maybe even doubled headed Bo-Bo's. With 8 sleepers and 4 or maybe 5 day coaches with of course the buffet and lounge; you could be looking 530 tonnes with pax and equipment which is more than a match for most locos over the banks. A Co-Co is of course always better for this kind of work just due to the potential for up tonnes of ahesive weight.
I agree about the 67 situation. While the 57's are semi reliable and continue to be able to manage load 9 that is soon to be placed upon them and any future increases to load 10 or 11 in the future then I feel as though they should stay. The question as too what replaces them remains open to discussion as at the moment 67's are most likely, but many want 68's. Either one would do the job just as well if not better than 57's but the cost of a 68 is unlikely to be justifiable. The 57's are just fine for now.