Incorrectly Translated Station Names

61653 HTAFC · 6 Apr 2020

One of the things about English being such a mongrel language is the large number of synonyms due to the various different influences. To use an example from above, the Welsh for danger (Perygl) is obviously similar to the English "peril" and probably has the same root.

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Dr_Paul · 6 Apr 2020

geoffk said:
I often wondered about that when visiting Wales. Also pont = bridge, eglwys = church, perygl = danger and I suppose llyfr = book, from liber. Probably a lot more.

I noticed that too. Fferm is effectively the same as the French word for farm, ferme. An interesting twist that shows that languages are flexible in their evolution is that occasionally an officially approved Welsh word for a new device doesn't get used by Welsh speakers as they prefer the English word which they've been using, and the latter gets incorporated into the vernacular, with due regard for the different alphabet: a Welsh-speaker told me this some time back, but unfortunately I can't recall to what words he was referring.

Dunfanaghy Rd · 6 Apr 2020

I thought Italian derived from an Italian dialect other than Latin? Oscan springs to mind, probably wrongly.
As to names in Strathclyde; wasn't this the home of the Strathclyde Welsh, or was that before the Scots came from Ulster as part of the Kingdom of Dál Ríata?
A far as England is concerned, I believe that the native British merely exchanged landlords on the arrival of Hengist and Horsa and their kindred. The language change must have followed. How else did Venta Belgarum transform to Wentaceastre to Winchester? (BTW its still not unknown to refer to Winchester as 'Winch'. I wonder if the Belgae did the same?)
Pat

THC · 6 Apr 2020

D6975 said:
In the Republic of Ireland, many station names are in English and Gaelic. At some stations I have been to, the Gaelic name is spelt differently on the various signs.

Leaving aside the three distinct dialects - Munster, Connacht and Ulster Irish - there was a wholesale spelling reform enacted throughout the 1940s and 1950s, culminating with the publication of the official standard in 1958. In consequence, place names in modern Irish where rendered differently are usually simpler in form.

THC

Tomos y Tanc · 6 Apr 2020

Dr_Paul said:
I noticed that too. Fferm is effectively the same as the French word for farm, ferme. An interesting twist that shows that languages are flexible in their evolution is that occasionally an officially approved Welsh word for a new device doesn't get used by Welsh speakers as they prefer the English word which they've been using, and the latter gets incorporated into the vernacular, with due regard for the different alphabet: a Welsh-speaker told me this some time back, but unfortunately I can't recall to what words he was referring.

There are plenty of examples of that. The Welsh word for computer is cyfrifiadur but many Welsh speakers use compiwtar. A mobile phone is ffon symudol but is frequently 'y mobeil'. People use different words in different settings. In my work, for instance, I would always call the railway, rheilffordd. With my friends I'd use 'reilwe'.

Roger100 · 7 Apr 2020

Round here the village names are pronounced differently by different villagers. For example West Cornforth (station closed a long time ago) is pronounced "Doggy".

Those who may have stopped at Southall (GWML) station will see that it has an alternative in another language, but I'm not going to attempt to type it here. I've never heard anyone pronounce it either.

pdeaves · 7 Apr 2020

Roger100 said:
Those who may have stopped at Southall (GWML) station will see that it has an alternative in another language, but I'm not going to attempt to type it here. I've never heard anyone pronounce it either.

ਸਾਊਥਹਾਲ

Essan · 7 Apr 2020

Dunfanaghy Rd said:
As to names in Strathclyde; wasn't this the home of the Strathclyde Welsh, or was that before the Scots came from Ulster as part of the Kingdom of Dál Ríata?

Yes, originally Ystrad Clud, part of Hen Ogledd, the "old north" which at one time extended from Cumbria north to Pen Lummon, the beacon hill, now known as Ben Lomond. Brythonic languages (old Welsh or Pictish) were originally spoken across all of what is now Scotland. Gaelic is as much an introduced language as English is (and, outside of possibly Kintyre and parts of the Hebrides, English arrived first).

Essan · 7 Apr 2020

Fort William is known (and shown on the station name) as An Gearasdan - The Garrison. Ironically, the gaelic being derived from the English word!

The direct gaelic translation would be Dun Uilleam.

PeterC · 7 Apr 2020

Dunfanaghy Rd said:
I thought Italian derived from an Italian dialect other than Latin? Oscan springs to mind, probably wrongly.
As to names in Strathclyde; wasn't this the home of the Strathclyde Welsh, or was that before the Scots came from Ulster as part of the Kingdom of Dál Ríata?
A far as England is concerned, I believe that the native British merely exchanged landlords on the arrival of Hengist and Horsa and their kindred. The language change must have followed. How else did Venta Belgarum transform to Wentaceastre to Winchester? (BTW its still not unknown to refer to Winchester as 'Winch'. I wonder if the Belgae did the same?)
Pat

The dropping of "Belgarum" from the name and the dropping of "Silurium" with Caerwent does suggest to me that locals just used the "Venta" part of the name, they knew which tribe they belonged to after all.

norbitonflyer · 7 Apr 2020

The two stations in Wales (a suburb of Rotherham) could be rendered as Parc Tregif and Pont Tregif (or possibly Parc/Pont Trepant, depending on the derivation of the original Kiveton)

Dunfanaghy Rd · 7 Apr 2020

Essan said:
Yes, originally Ystrad Clud, part of Hen Ogledd, the "old north" which at one time extended from Cumbria north to Pen Lummon, the beacon hill, now known as Ben Lomond. Brythonic languages (old Welsh or Pictish) were originally spoken across all of what is now Scotland. Gaelic is as much an introduced language as English is (and, outside of possibly Kintyre and parts of the Hebrides, English arrived first).

Don't tell the Scot Nats :lol:

Pat

Dunfanaghy Rd · 7 Apr 2020

PeterC said:
The dropping of "Belgarum" from the name and the dropping of "Silurium" with Caerwent does suggest to me that locals just used the "Venta" part of the name, they knew which tribe they belonged to after all.

My feeling as well.
Pat

Ralph Ayres · 7 Apr 2020

I find it odd that Porthmadog has happily settled into its Welsh form with the anglicised version dropped, yet many other towns still retain 2 very similar names such as Criccieth/Cricieth. Why can't they just settle on one? Even something a little more distinct such as Cardiff/Caerdydd shouldn't be that difficult to standardise on the Welsh form. From a railway perspective it makes destination boards/indicators/announcements unnecessarily cumbersome.
(on the other hand, isn't renaming English town names - such as London turning into Llundain - as bad as the days of Empire when the English referred to Peking because we couldn't be bothered to learn how to pronounce Beijing?)

61653 HTAFC · 7 Apr 2020

Ralph Ayres said:
on the other hand, isn't renaming English town names - such as London turning into Llundain - as bad as the days of Empire when the English referred to Peking because we couldn't be bothered to learn how to pronounce Beijing?

I know what you mean: "Cologne" always grinds my gears... but for some reason "Munich" or "Vienna" don't.

alansheppard77 · 7 Apr 2020

61653 HTAFC said:
One of the things about English being such a mongrel language is the large number of synonyms due to the various different influences. To use an example from above, the Welsh for danger (Perygl) is obviously similar to the English "peril" and probably has the same root.

all tube anouncments say Marleybone not Marylebone

LNW-GW Joint · 7 Apr 2020

61653 HTAFC said:
I know what you mean: "Cologne" always grinds my gears... but for some reason "Munich" or "Vienna" don't.

Quite a number of German places names changed their initial C to K in a spelling reform in, I think, the 1920s.
Places like Koblenz and Karlsruhe used to be (officially) Coblenz and Carlsruhe respectively.
For some reason we ignored the change for Cologne (similar Roman root to our Lincoln, of course).

I like the GW signal box name plate in Wrexham which says Croes Newydd North Fork.
Nicely mixes up the two languages in one place.

6Gman · 7 Apr 2020

unlevel42 said:
and the special powers that enable people to hear through walls, windows and doors and recognise the language spoken before they went into pub/shop changes when they go in.

There is a rational explanation to the phenomenon of "they were all speaking English until I went in and then they started talking Welsh", the technical name for which escapes me for the moment.

Apparently if you hear sounds that seem like your native tongue your brain will interpret them as being in that language initially until you realise that it's not in fact that language.

I have experienced this - the other way round to the usual Welsh pub/ shop stories - where I've thought somebody was speaking in Welsh initially only to realise that it was actually Italian or Spanish or even English!

6Gman · 7 Apr 2020

LNW-GW Joint said:
I like the GW signal box name plate in Wrexham which says Croes Newydd North Fork.
Nicely mixes up the two languages in one place.

Presumably because Croes Newydd has never acquired an English form.

Vespa · 7 Apr 2020

6Gman said:
There is a rational explanation to the phenomenon of "they were all speaking English until I went in and then they started talking Welsh", the technical name for which escapes me for the moment.

Apparently if you hear sounds that seem like your native tongue your brain will interpret them as being in that language initially until you realise that it's not in fact that language.

I have experienced this - the other way round to the usual Welsh pub/ shop stories - where I've thought somebody was speaking in Welsh initially only to realise that it was actually Italian or Spanish or even English!

I actually caught myself in situation in Mexico where I was speaking to a Belizean woman in Spanish while she was speaking to me in English, we understood each other perfectly during it all, just like when I was in Gibraltar where Spanish and English is spoken and switched mid sentence.

I didn't realise I was in a bilingual conversation until she pointed it out, kinda surreal lol.

krus_aragon · 7 Apr 2020

Ralph Ayres said:
(on the other hand, isn't renaming English town names - such as London turning into Llundain - as bad as the days of Empire when the English referred to Peking because we couldn't be bothered to learn how to pronounce Beijing?)

Possibly, but most of these English places with Welsh names have had them for centuries; the name Llundain is used in the Mabinogi, which date from the 11th Century.

Many of the English places with Welsh names are old catherdral cities, newer upstart settlements (such as Birmingham) tend to go without.

61653 HTAFC · 7 Apr 2020

LNW-GW Joint said:
Quite a number of German places names changed their initial C to K in a spelling reform in, I think, the 1920s.
Places like Koblenz and Karlsruhe used to be (officially) Coblenz and Carlsruhe respectively.
For some reason we ignored the change for Cologne (similar Roman root to our Lincoln, of course).

I like the GW signal box name plate in Wrexham which says Croes Newydd North Fork.
Nicely mixes up the two languages in one place.

In the case of Cologne/Köln I think maybe it's the very Romance-seeming "-gne" ending that rubs me up the wrong way.

Llanigraham · 7 Apr 2020

Ralph Ayres said:
I find it odd that Porthmadog has happily settled into its Welsh form with the anglicised version dropped, yet many other towns still retain 2 very similar names such as Criccieth/Cricieth. Why can't they just settle on one? Even something a little more distinct such as Cardiff/Caerdydd shouldn't be that difficult to standardise on the Welsh form. From a railway perspective it makes destination boards/indicators/announcements unnecessarily cumbersome.
(on the other hand, isn't renaming English town names - such as London turning into Llundain - as bad as the days of Empire when the English referred to Peking because we couldn't be bothered to learn how to pronounce Beijing?)

No it isn't odd, since Cymraeg is the main language spoken in that area.
And to be honest the pronunciation is the same, just the spelling has now (finally) been corrected.

Tomos y Tanc · 7 Apr 2020

Dunfanaghy Rd said:
Don't tell the Scot Nats
Pat

I know that was meant as a joke but it's actually very interesting.

Welsh speakers are very aware of 'Yr Hen Ogledd" (the old north), the kingdoms of Rheged (today's Cumbria), Ystrad Clud (Strathclyde) and Manaw Gododdin (Lothian). They are a part of our national mythology. The Scots, on the other hand have expunged those kingdoms from their history. I guess it goes to show you pick and choose what suits you in creating a national identity.

37 418 · 7 Apr 2020

Essan said:
Fort William is known (and shown on the station name) as An Gearasdan - The Garrison. Ironically, the gaelic being derived from the English word!

The direct gaelic translation would be Dun Uilleam.

The original Gaelic for Fort William is Inbhir Lòchaidh, where the original English came from - Inverlochy.

37 418 · 7 Apr 2020

Dunfanaghy Rd said:
Don't tell the Scot Nats
Pat

Not all Gaelic speakers are Nationalists, its pretty much 50/50

37 418 · 7 Apr 2020

Essan said:
Yes, originally Ystrad Clud, part of Hen Ogledd, the "old north" which at one time extended from Cumbria north to Pen Lummon, the beacon hill, now known as Ben Lomond. Brythonic languages (old Welsh or Pictish) were originally spoken across all of what is now Scotland. Gaelic is as much an introduced language as English is (and, outside of possibly Kintyre and parts of the Hebrides, English arrived first).

Anglo-Saxon may have, however English did not pre-date Gaelic. English was introduced mainly under the rule of David I, long after Gaelic was established. Most Gaelic speakers, nationalist or or unionist, recognise that Brythonic languages (Pictish, Cumbric etc) were spoke in Scotland before Gaelic. :smile:

Dr_Paul · 7 Apr 2020

61653 HTAFC said:
I know what you mean: "Cologne" always grinds my gears... but for some reason "Munich" or "Vienna" don't.

But is not Cologne the French name for the city, rather than an Anglicisation? (My favourite Anglicisation is Leghorn for Livorno, something that baffles Italians I've spoken to about it.) Many places in Europe have had two or more names, in different languages, reflecting the various people who have lived there and the countries they variously have been in, as borders move and nation-states come into and sometimes go out of existence. Many western Polish cities have had German names, hence Wrocław -- Breslau, Poznań -- Posen, Gdańsk -- Danzig, Łódź -- Litzmannstadt. The city of Lviv in Ukraine has also been known as Lemburg (German), Lvov (Russian) and Lwów in Polish at various points in time.

181 · 7 Apr 2020

61653 HTAFC said:
In the case of Cologne/Köln I think maybe it's the very Romance-seeming "-gne" ending that rubs me up the wrong way.

But arguably that's not inappropriate because of this:

LNW-GW Joint said:
Cologne (similar Roman root to our Lincoln, of course).

Dr_Paul said:
But is not Cologne the French name for the city, rather than an Anglicisation?

That's my understanding, although we don't pronounce it the French way (which is probably closer to the original Latin than either English or German is).

Dr_Paul said:
Many places in Europe have had two or more names, in different languages, reflecting the various people who have lived there and the countries they variously have been in, as borders move and nation-states come into and sometimes go out of existence. Many western Polish cities have had German names, hence Wrocław -- Breslau, Poznań -- Posen, Gdańsk -- Danzig, Łódź -- Litzmannstadt.

Indeed (although, being pedantic, I think Litzmannstadt was a WW2-era innovation rather than a historic German name like the others).

Dr_Paul said:
The city of Lviv in Ukraine has also been known as Lemburg (German), Lvov (Russian) and Lwów in Polish at various points in time.

This reminds me of the Edward Lucas quotation here (the original article is behind a paywall). Hopefully here at Railforums we can avoid thinking the worst of people based on their choice of place name.

Dunfanaghy Rd · 8 Apr 2020

37 418 said:
Anglo-Saxon may have, however English did not pre-date Gaelic. English was introduced mainly under the rule of David I, long after Gaelic was established. Most Gaelic speakers, nationalist or or unionist, recognise that Brythonic languages (Pictish, Cumbric etc) were spoke in Scotland before Gaelic.

Does that mean that Gaelic was the language in the South East before Northumbria took it over?
Pat

Incorrectly Translated Station Names

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