• Our booking engine at tickets.railforums.co.uk (powered by TrainSplit) helps support the running of the forum with every ticket purchase! Find out more and ask any questions/give us feedback in this thread!

Ongar Aldwych and others

Status
Not open for further replies.

Journeyman

Established Member
Joined
16 Apr 2014
Messages
6,295
Yes I often think the same about the North London extremities of the Northern, Jubilee and Piccadilly Lines. Decidedly less “London” landscape they travel through. The Piccadilly between Oakwood and Cockfosters is bound to the north side by farmland. I imagine the Met is the same.

The Chesham branch is operated as part of the main Metropolitan line now, but in the days it was a shuttle, it was as close to the classic country branch line as you'd find anywhere. It felt very incongruous travelling along it in A stock. S stock is even stranger.
 
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R

RailUK Forums

theblackwatch

Established Member
Joined
15 Feb 2006
Messages
10,713
I was annoyed with myself that I never got round to doing Charing Cross on the Jubilee Line before it closed, although I appreciate the line is wholly in tunnel so I wouldn't have seen much.

That is one that frustrates me too. I could have easily done it when it was open, and also a few years back when they did some reasonably priced trips doing it. Nowadays, the LU heritage trips seem to be beyond the price I'm prepared to pay - I think the trips doing Charing Cross Jubilee at the back end of last year were around £80-90. To be fair, they were full well before the date of running, so there are obviously enough people who are prepared to pay these prices.
 

Journeyman

Established Member
Joined
16 Apr 2014
Messages
6,295
That is one that frustrates me too. I could have easily done it when it was open, and also a few years back when they did some reasonably priced trips doing it. Nowadays, the LU heritage trips seem to be beyond the price I'm prepared to pay - I think the trips doing Charing Cross Jubilee at the back end of last year were around £80-90. To be fair, they were full well before the date of running, so there are obviously enough people who are prepared to pay these prices.

I used to work at Charing Cross, not long after the closure. The closed off area at the station is massive, pretty much bigger than the area that is still open. I went down there quite regularly on inspections, and being in a huge, deserted space alone was quite spooky! The place had a very odd feel to it. It was pretty silent and had a post-apocalyptic vibe to it.
 

aviator

Member
Joined
28 Aug 2015
Messages
14
Location
Brisbane, Australia
I have always liked travelling by train and became more interested more in the mode as a teenager. In the 80s poss 90s also , certain lines closed before I managed to sample them. I was living in Bexleyheath in those days, I managed to travel from Ellmers End to Sanderstead , I also went to Addiscombe too. I took a dmu from North Woolwich to Stratford which I found really interesting being used to 3rd rail trains from my neck of the woods.

I missed out on and regret not experiencing West Croydon to Wimbledon , Epping to Ongar and Holborn to Aldwych .Can anyone share the memories of the lines I mentioned or other lost lines experienced or unfortunately missed out on before it was too late !

I can (just!) remember travelling to Ongar when I ws very young, in 1980, and wondering why the doors closed so quickly at Blake Hall, and wy Ongar only had on platform. Then much later travelling to North Weald (some time in the nineties) and being the only passenger at the station!

Aldwych was an interesting journey, the old unmodified lift was as interesting as the rest of the station.

West Croydon to Wimbledon - hard to remember you were in London, the whole journey felt really back-garden out of the way ... I used to live near there but the irregular timetable meant it was never as useful as it could have been.

Other journeys on now-closed lines I remember include the Graham Road curve, Victoria - Battersea Pk - Clapham High St, Croxley Green, Waterloo to Wimbledon via East Putney, North Woolwich to Stratford (after electrifiation) and the Island Gardens terminus of the Docklands Light Railway - a much more attractive station than the current one!

One place I always thought about visiting but unfortunately missed was Holborn Viaduct station.
 

PeterC

Established Member
Joined
29 Sep 2014
Messages
4,086
Just looked at my earlier post. I should add the original DLR Island Gardens station and the surface platforms at Hounslow West. At Broad Street I have used both the original and the temporary station in Sun Street Passage.

I remember nothing about the journey but I know that coaches collected us from Tavistock on a school trip in 1965.

I have also managed the the Southend Pier Railway before it was reguaged.
 

AY1975

Established Member
Joined
14 Dec 2016
Messages
1,758
Another I didnt take was Tunbridge Wells to Eridge .

That has now reopened as the Spa Valley Railway, albeit minus the bit between Tunbridge Wells Central and West stations (with a Homebase store having been built on part of the trackbed at Tunbridge Wells West). I regret never having done it before it closed but I've done it since it reopened as a preserved line. For several years it only ran between Tunbridge Wells West and Groombridge but it now once again runs through to Eridge.
 

AY1975

Established Member
Joined
14 Dec 2016
Messages
1,758
Waterloo to Wimbledon via East Putney

Point Pleasant Junction-East Putney is still open but only normally used by empty stock workings to and from Durnsford Road depot, although there is one passenger train (albeit in the early hours of the morning) that is booked to go that way presumably to keep up route knowledge. It's also occasionally used by charter trains and for diversions. Apart from that, I don't think it has had a regular passenger service since World War II.

See also the thread on passenger trains over unusual lines at www.railforums.co.uk/threads/trivia-lines-with-only-the-odd-passenger-train-to-keep-up-route-knowledge.199983/

Since about the late 1980s that spur has been single track, as the track that used to be used by trains coming from Durnsford Road towards Clapham Junction was then taken out of use and lifted.

I've actually done the Point Pleasant Jn-East Putney spur on a shuttle that operated between Wimbledon Park and Clapham Junction during a Durnsford Road depot open day in about 1991 using a 4-CEP EMU (the green 4-SUB was also used).
 

AY1975

Established Member
Joined
14 Dec 2016
Messages
1,758
Most of Wimbledon to West Croydon is still open as London Tramlink.
Yes, and so is part of Elmers End-Sanderstead: between Elmers End and Sandilands, and between Sandilands and just before Lloyd Park tram stop where the line curves off towards New Addington instead of continuing along the original alignment to Selsdon. At Sandilands, the Elmers End and New Addington lines diverge where the original heavy rail line simply went straight across, but Sandilands Tunnel is the same tunnel that was used by the original line.

Whereas Wimbledon-West Croydon only closed for conversion to light rail, Elmers End-Sanderstead latterly had a peak-hour only service and closed in 1983 although I believe that it was already planned for eventual reuse as part of a light rail system at the time of its closure so the trackbed was mothballed.
 
Last edited:

edwin_m

Veteran Member
Joined
21 Apr 2013
Messages
24,918
Location
Nottingham
Whereas Wimbledon-West Croydon only closed for conversion to light rail, Elmers End-Sanderstead latterly had a peak-hour only service and closed in 1983 although I believe that it was already planned for eventual reuse as part of a light rail system at the time of its closure so the trackbed was mothballed.
I don't think the idea of Tramlink emerged until one of the rail studies a bit later, though I can't track down a source for this. Any protection of the alignment couldn't have been 100%, as some housing was built south of the tunnel near Lloyd Park.
 

swt_passenger

Veteran Member
Joined
7 Apr 2010
Messages
31,426
Point Pleasant Junction-East Putney is still open but only normally used by empty stock workings to and from Durnsford Road depot, although there is one passenger train (albeit in the early hours of the morning) that is booked to go that way presumably to keep up route knowledge...
There are actually 5 passenger services in the WTT.
However they are all cancelled in the current overall service reductions, so to find them on RTT you’ll need to select the CAN button...
 

frodshamfella

Established Member
Joined
25 Sep 2010
Messages
1,673
Location
Frodsham
That has now reopened as the Spa Valley Railway, albeit minus the bit between Tunbridge Wells Central and West stations (with a Homebase store having been built on part of the trackbed at Tunbridge Wells West). I regret never having done it before it closed but I've done it since it reopened as a preserved line. For several years it only ran between Tunbridge Wells West and Groombridge but it now once again runs through to Eridge.

Do you know how popular it was when it was the BR shuttle ?
 

frodshamfella

Established Member
Joined
25 Sep 2010
Messages
1,673
Location
Frodsham
I can (just!) remember travelling to Ongar when I ws very young, in 1980, and wondering why the doors closed so quickly at Blake Hall, and wy Ongar only had on platform. Then much later travelling to North Weald (some time in the nineties) and being the only passenger at the station!

Aldwych was an interesting journey, the old unmodified lift was as interesting as the rest of the station.

West Croydon to Wimbledon - hard to remember you were in London, the whole journey felt really back-garden out of the way ... I used to live near there but the irregular timetable meant it was never as useful as it could have been.

Other journeys on now-closed lines I remember include the Graham Road curve, Victoria - Battersea Pk - Clapham High St, Croxley Green, Waterloo to Wimbledon via East Putney, North Woolwich to Stratford (after electrifiation) and the Island Gardens terminus of the Docklands Light Railway - a much more attractive station than the current one!

One place I always thought about visiting but unfortunately missed was Holborn Viaduct station.

I used Holborn Viaduct a few times as my local station at the time ( Bexleyheath ) had a few peak hour services there or to Blackfriars. Holborn Viaduct from my recollection was station you could over look from the front, with an office block above it, if memory serves me right !
 

frodshamfella

Established Member
Joined
25 Sep 2010
Messages
1,673
Location
Frodsham
I can (just!) remember travelling to Ongar when I ws very young, in 1980, and wondering why the doors closed so quickly at Blake Hall, and wy Ongar only had on platform. Then much later travelling to North Weald (some time in the nineties) and being the only passenger at the station!

Aldwych was an interesting journey, the old unmodified lift was as interesting as the rest of the station.

West Croydon to Wimbledon - hard to remember you were in London, the whole journey felt really back-garden out of the way ... I used to live near there but the irregular timetable meant it was never as useful as it could have been.

Other journeys on now-closed lines I remember include the Graham Road curve, Victoria - Battersea Pk - Clapham High St, Croxley Green, Waterloo to Wimbledon via East Putney, North Woolwich to Stratford (after electrifiation) and the Island Gardens terminus of the Docklands Light Railway - a much more attractive station than the current one!

One place I always thought about visiting but unfortunately missed was Holborn Viaduct station.

Did the North Woolwich service used to run to Cannonbury before it ran to Richmond ? I did travel on a diesel service from North Woolwich to Stratford.
 

PeterC

Established Member
Joined
29 Sep 2014
Messages
4,086
Did the North Woolwich service used to run to Cannonbury before it ran to Richmond ? I did travel on a diesel service from North Woolwich to Stratford.
Yes, I believe that the extension from Stratford to Camden Road was a Ken Livingstone initiative. North London Line services still ran into Braod Street. It seemed like a total waste of money at the time but look at the NLL now!
 

Vespa

Established Member
Joined
20 Dec 2019
Messages
1,583
Location
Merseyside
Mill Hill East is an oddity, its a short trunciated stub of a former Great Northern Railway line, I walked quite a way along the former railway track bed, there is still some railway related infrastrures dotted about, there were plans to run a LU line from Mill Hill East to Edgeware connecting both end into a big loop as part of the Northern Heights project.

I would loved to ride that line.
 

edwin_m

Veteran Member
Joined
21 Apr 2013
Messages
24,918
Location
Nottingham
Mill Hill East is an oddity, its a short trunciated stub of a former Great Northern Railway line, I walked quite a way along the former railway track bed, there is still some railway related infrastrures dotted about, there were plans to run a LU line from Mill Hill East to Edgeware connecting both end into a big loop as part of the Northern Heights project.

I would loved to ride that line.
The whole of the line through Mill Hill East to Edgware was built by the Great Northern not by London Transport, as indeed was the "main line" of the Northern through Finchley. So that part of the Northern Heights programme was a conversion not a brand new line. When WW2 started they had nearly finished electrification to Mill Hill East, where there was an important military facility, so they just opened that part and suspended work on the rest. After the War the areas to be served by extension beyond Edgware were designated Green Belt so there was no point in serving it, and all uncompleted parts of the scheme were abandoned.
 

Vespa

Established Member
Joined
20 Dec 2019
Messages
1,583
Location
Merseyside
The whole of the line through Mill Hill East to Edgware was built by the Great Northern not by London Transport, as indeed was the "main line" of the Northern through Finchley. So that part of the Northern Heights programme was a conversion not a brand new line. When WW2 started they had nearly finished electrification to Mill Hill East, where there was an important military facility, so they just opened that part and suspended work on the rest. After the War the areas to be served by extension beyond Edgware were designated Green Belt so there was no point in serving it, and all uncompleted parts of the scheme were abandoned.

Pretty much what I said mate, never said it was built by LU, it's all on the internet, you'll telling me how to suck eggs next :lol:
 

Islineclear3_1

Established Member
Joined
24 Apr 2014
Messages
5,836
Location
PTSO or platform depending on the weather
The ones in London I remember travelling on:

North Woolwich to Stratford (didn't bother going further westwards as I was more interested in bunking round the works at Stratford...)

Stratford to Lea Bridge on a DMU sometime in 1983 before Lea Bridge was closed by BR

Part of GOBLIN, Barking to Leytonstone High Road

West Croydon to Wimbledon

Just missed Elmers End to Sanderstead but remember Addiscombe shed, signal box and semaphores

Broad Street to Willesden (I remember semaphores - at a London terminus!)
 
Joined
4 May 2012
Messages
309
It was pretty silent and had a post-apocalyptic vibe to it.
A bit like the entire country now then.
I travelled on the Hayling Island branch several times before closure, and now often walk (when allowed) the northern section from Havant station (former platform area now down side car park) to Langstone. The bridge supports across the harbour are still evident. I am not sure whether trains ever passed under the bridge built as part of the then new Havant by-pass.
 

frodshamfella

Established Member
Joined
25 Sep 2010
Messages
1,673
Location
Frodsham
Mill Hill East is an oddity, its a short trunciated stub of a former Great Northern Railway line, I walked quite a way along the former railway track bed, there is still some railway related infrastrures dotted about, there were plans to run a LU line from Mill Hill East to Edgeware connecting both end into a big loop as part of the Northern Heights project.

I would loved to ride that line.

Me too.
 

frodshamfella

Established Member
Joined
25 Sep 2010
Messages
1,673
Location
Frodsham
I read somewhere quite recently that at one time LU ran a post theatre train from Aldwych beyond Holborn terminating somewhere further up the line.
 

edwin_m

Veteran Member
Joined
21 Apr 2013
Messages
24,918
Location
Nottingham
Pretty much what I said mate, never said it was built by LU, it's all on the internet, you'll telling me how to suck eggs next :lol:
You gave the impression that the line would have been new build by LU. I wanted to set the record straight in case anyone got the wrong idea.
 

Journeyman

Established Member
Joined
16 Apr 2014
Messages
6,295
I read somewhere quite recently that at one time LU ran a post theatre train from Aldwych beyond Holborn terminating somewhere further up the line.

Yeah, it went to Finsbury Park, back in the days when that was the Picc's northern terminus. Pretty sure they stopped running pre-World War 2 (I don't think they survived WW1 by very long).
 

Taunton

Established Member
Joined
1 Aug 2013
Messages
10,086
Did the North Woolwich service used to run to Cannonbury before it ran to Richmond ? I did travel on a diesel service from North Woolwich to Stratford.
There were a series of rearrangements over the years. I saw the last diesel service away from North Woolwich, described elsewhere here, and both it and the subsequent DC service south of Stratford pretty much ran empty by then. What a difference now, almost the whole route has been reused, either by the DLR from Stratford, and then after a break of a few hundred yards beyond Canning Town, by Crossrail. The North Woolwich service long ago used to run to Palace Gates up in Haringey, then got cut back to Stratford, extended to Camden Road, changed to DC through to Richmond, abandoned from Stratford, and now all rebuilt as described.
 

Enthusiast

Member
Joined
18 Mar 2019
Messages
1,115
Living in North London (a mile or so from Dalston Junction) I used the North London line to and from Broad Street many times. That stretch is mainly on viaducts and overbridges (once you get beyond Richmond Road). The major civil structure was a huge girder bridge which crosses Kingsland Road at a skewed angle before the line goes on to cross the eastern end of Old Street. This stretch is now used by the East London Line extension from Shoreditch to Dalston Junction. Broad Street was largely deserted during the day and in a shocking state of disrepair. In the peak hours some services served the Great Northern lines north of Finsbury Park, usually hauled by Brush D55xx (latterly class 31) locos. They gained access to the North London line by way of the junction between Canonbury and Highbury & Islington with the line routing under Highbury Fields, joining the ECML between Drayton Park and the Emirates Stadium.

One of my early jobs was in Aldwych, adjacent to the Law Courts. I'd travel to Holborn by Piccadilly Line from Kings Cross (73 bus to there). I knew the times of the Aldwych shuttle fairly well and would get one if it was convenient but if not it was quicker to walk down Kingsway. Trouble was the cross platform interchange for the Aldwych branch was from the northbound Piccadilly Line platform, so it was up and over to change from the westbound platform (but my legs were a lot younger then!). The lift at Aldwych had a ticket office in one corner. Before leaving Holborn the guard of the shuttle would press a large brass plunger which would ring a bell in the lift at Aldwych. The station bod (who seemed to do everything) would then take the lift down to meet the train.

I travelled the Ongar branch a number of times, usually courtesy of a "Twin Rover" (red buses and the Underground, but not north of Rickmansworth). Blake Hall was something else. We alighted there once to have a mooch round before catching the returning train to Epping. There was simply nothing at all apart from a few isolated houses and farm buildings within walking distance of the station and it was a good ten minute slog up to the A414 Epping-Ongar Road. I only did that once! I'm not surprised it was the least used station on the system (that dubious distinction now being held by Roding Valley). There were reports that it handled fewer than 20 passengers daily before its closure which was on 31/10/81. On a visit to the E&OR last year it seemed little had changed. The platform is still extant though the station building has been converted to a private dwelling. I took some photos of it during its conversion (the builders very kindly let me have a sniff around) but I cannot lay my hands on them at present. The rest of the Ongar branch closed on 30/9/94.

I managed to get to Croxley Green just once, but more recently. I did that in the early 90s in anticipation of the services being ceased. They were "temporarily" suspended in 1996. I hope nobody missed the last train! I had previously managed Watford Junction on one of the few Bakerloo peak hour services and the sheds where those trains were stabled overnight were still evident in the 1990s.

A trip to the Widened Lines from Finsbury Park, stopping at Kings Cross York Road was an occasional adventure. Only did the return once. It involved travelling through a long curving, steeply inclined tunnel up to a platform (similarly inclined) on the suburban side of Kings Cross. The early Craven DMUs sometimes had a struggle.

I used Holborn Viaduct for a few years. I worked for a few weeks in the office block overlooking the platforms (Williams National House, demolished when the line was re-routed through the Snow Hill Tunnel and City Thameslink station was constructed).

I managed Palace Gates just the once. I travelled from Seven Sisters and I think it was about a year before the services ceased.

Finally, in September 1961 I had a ticket for the last train from Baker Street to Amersham, where the changeover from electric loco to steam was made at Rickmansworth for the last time. Electrification was extended from Rikky to Amersham only and the LT Aylesbury service was cut back to Amersham the day before. I cannot remember which of the Met's electric locos made the final journey. Oh for a digital camera then! I have in my mind that the Chesham shuttle lingered under steam for an extra day or two and I seem to remember a steam loco being in the Chesham branch platform as we passed Chalfont (but details are a little hazy!).
I read somewhere quite recently that at one time LU ran a post theatre train from Aldwych beyond Holborn terminating somewhere further up the line.
Yeah, it went to Finsbury Park, back in the days when that was the Picc's northern terminus. Pretty sure they stopped running pre-World War 2 (I don't think they survived WW1 by very long).
My information is that it didn't even make it to WW1 and that it only ran from 1907 to about 1910.
 

Taunton

Established Member
Joined
1 Aug 2013
Messages
10,086
I must be one of the few here who travelled to Ongar for a genuine purpose, outward in the morning and back later, for we had a client in Ongar village who I visited a few times in 1983-85, though latterly I drove there instead because I could leave when ready and, starting from Wanstead at the time, it was a lot quicker up the M11 and through Abridge than two changes on the Central. I was always the only passenger in the car, a sensation still readily repeatable nowadays on Hainault-Woodford. The client, who didn't live in the village, discerned quite quickly that I had taken the Tube for novelty.
 

AY1975

Established Member
Joined
14 Dec 2016
Messages
1,758
Do you know how popular it was when it was the BR shuttle ?

Unfortunately I never did it in BR days but from what I've heard I get the impression that it was quite well used by commuters in peak hours but very lightly used at other times. It was the truncated remains of a once extensive network that included the Tunbridge Wells-Three Bridges, Uckfield-Lewes and Eridge-Polegate lines.

In some ways I think it's a wonder that the Tunbridge Wells-Eridge section didn't close in the Beeching era - I suspect that it may have been recommended for closure in the Beeching report but was reprieved because of strong local opposition to its closure. I believe that that was the case with the Uckfield line (albeit with the section south of Uckfield still closing).

I believe that closure of the remaining section between Tunbridge Wells and Eridge was partly justified on the grounds that it would reduce the cost of electrification of the Hastings line because it enabled Grove Junction to be eliminated.
 

Journeyman

Established Member
Joined
16 Apr 2014
Messages
6,295
Unfortunately I never did it in BR days but from what I've heard I get the impression that it was quite well used by commuters in peak hours but very lightly used at other times. It was the truncated remains of a once extensive network that included the Tunbridge Wells-Three Bridges, Uckfield-Lewes and Eridge-Polegate lines.

In some ways I think it's a wonder that the Tunbridge Wells-Eridge section didn't close in the Beeching era - I suspect that it may have been recommended for closure in the Beeching report but was reprieved because of strong local opposition to its closure. I believe that that was the case with the Uckfield line (albeit with the section south of Uckfield still closing).

I believe that closure of the remaining section between Tunbridge Wells and Eridge was partly justified on the grounds that it would reduce the cost of electrification of the Hastings line because it enabled Grove Junction to be eliminated.

The main reason the line survived for so long was because of the DEMU stabling and refuelling facilities at Tunbridge Wells West, which were needed for Uckfield line units. The entire Eastern and Central Section DEMU fleet was based at St. Leonards, and after Uckfield to Lewes closed, the Uckfield units had to take a very roundabout route to and from the depot (they couldn't run direct from Hastings to Tunbridge Wells because of the loading gauge restrictions). Much everyday stuff was done at Tunbridge Wells West.

Eventually, the Uckfield units were reallocated to Selhurst, and far fewer of them were needed after the East Grinstead electrification anyway. But yes - the main reason for closure was that the Hastings electrification and resignalling was made cheaper by eliminating Grove Junction from the programme. The line also had no less than six manual signal boxes which made operation very expensive, and there was a huge backlog of maintenance.
 

30907

Veteran Member
Joined
30 Sep 2012
Messages
18,040
Location
Airedale
Unfortunately I never did it in BR days but from what I've heard I get the impression that it was quite well used by commuters in peak hours but very lightly used at other times. It was the truncated remains of a once extensive network that included the Tunbridge Wells-Three Bridges, Uckfield-Lewes and Eridge-Polegate lines.

I believe that closure of the remaining section between Tunbridge Wells and Eridge was partly justified on the grounds that it would reduce the cost of electrification of the Hastings line because it enabled Grove Junction to be eliminated.

My only memories are of offpeak services in the early 70s - and both Oxted-Brighton and T Wells-Eridge being pretty dead.
Historically the main service was London-Oxted-TWW and Tonbridge-Brighton, and in a 60s context I suppose the latter but not the former might have survived.
A simplified Grove Jn, with all Eridge trains using the bi-di Up line through Central, would have been possible, I suppose, but traffic had presumably fallen below even 1971 levels...
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Top