Conservative MP calls for Welsh Assembly to be scrapped so people can visit beach

Starmill · 12 May 2020

[Daniel Kawczynski] said: "The current gap emerging over this crisis results in the Prime Minister saying to my constituents you can now go for a walk on the beach, but you are prohibited from going across the frontier to get to our nearest coast.”

"I am sorry but the time has come to reach out as Conservatives to large numbers of like-minded citizens in Wales who like us believe in one system for both nations.

"We must work towards another referendum to scrap the Welsh Assembly and return to one political system for both nations - a political union between England and Wales."

'Scrap the Senedd' - English MP hits out over differing lockdown rules

An English MP has bemoaned the fact that his constituents can’t travel to the seaside in Wales because of differing lockdown rules in England and Wales.

www.cambrian-news.co.uk

An interesting take from an MP in England, which is that the difference in Welsh and English rules means that the Welsh Assembly should be scrapped. In particular he thinks that it is unacceptable that Shropshire residents have to drive further to reach a beach because they're not allowed to visit the ones in Wales.

The Welsh Regulations still make it unlawful to travel without a good reason, and exercise must be done near to the home, so it isn't one such reason.

Coronavirus: 'Do not drive from England to Wales to exercise'Rules have been relaxed in England , meaning people can "drive to other destinations".

In Wales, people cannot travel "a significant distance" from home .

Police forces in Wales have the power to fine people for making non-essential journeys and that includes those travelling from England into Wales.

Coronavirus: 'Do not drive from England to Wales to exercise'

People are warned not to travel to Wales from England for leisure activities or to second homes.

www.bbc.com

RailUK Forums

Bletchleyite · 12 May 2020

If you look at this:

UKHSA data dashboard

Overall summary of the respiratory viruses in circulation within the UK

coronavirus.data.gov.uk

...it does look like Wales has a good reason for wanting stricter measures. It appears to have the highest infection rate of the UK constituent countries at present.

thejuggler · 12 May 2020

Maybe someone should send him a road atlas and show him where The Wirral is. Only 50 miles from Shrewbury, which is nearer than my nearest English beach.

WelshBluebird · 12 May 2020

It is probably worth mentioning this from an MP who has form for saying similarly silly things in the past.

bramling · 12 May 2020

Bletchleyite said:
If you look at this:

UKHSA data dashboard

Overall summary of the respiratory viruses in circulation within the UK

coronavirus.data.gov.uk

...it does look like Wales has a good reason for wanting stricter measures. It appears to have the highest infection rate of the UK constituent countries at present.

I can see both sides of it. Ultimately however I feel this stark divide between England and elsewhere is toxic.

Ultimately I think Boris should have fallen into line with them, and instead of a bizarre focus on exercise (does he *seriously* think people have not been doing this for weeks anyway?), the focus should have been simply on returning people to work safely where possible - across all four nations.

Bletchleyite · 12 May 2020

I can equally see a case for pandemic response (specificially) to cease being a devolved matter.

CaptainHaddock · 12 May 2020

bramling said:
I can see both sides of it. Ultimately however I feel this stark divide between England and elsewhere is toxic.

Ultimately I think Boris should have fallen into line with them, and instead of a bizarre focus on exercise (does he *seriously* think people have not been doing this for weeks anyway?), the focus should have been simply on returning people to work safely where possible - across all four nations.

Seriously you think the smallest nations of the UK should be allowed to dictate to the biggest one what message they should be sending? If anything I think it's disappointing that the Scottish and Welsh assemblies are playing to their independence and nationalism supporters instead of falling into line with Westminster. The "stay at home" soundbite is, to a large extent, out of date as - from tomorrow - there are so many permitted reasons to go out that it no longer holds true.

According to the OP's link there were only 5 deaths from Covid-19 in Wales yesterday, which suggests the virus hasn't really affected them anywhere near as bad as England so you can understand people living on the English side of the border feeling resentful at the Welsh limiting their travel opportunities.

bramling · 12 May 2020

Bletchleyite said:
I can equally see a case for pandemic response (specificially) to cease being a devolved matter.

Yes there’s no way we can have a repeat of this fiasco. It’s one thing making regional variations, but doing it on nationalist lines makes no sense. It’s just stirred up vitriol.

Bletchleyite · 12 May 2020

CaptainHaddock said:
According to the OP's link there were only 5 deaths from Covid-19 in Wales yesterday, which suggests the virus hasn't really affected them anywhere near as bad as England so you can understand people living on the English side of the border feeling resentful at the Welsh limiting their travel opportunities.

They have more cases per head than England - check the link I posted above. Remember a lot of Wales is sheep fields

LNW-GW Joint · 12 May 2020

Bletchleyite said:
If you look at this:

UKHSA data dashboard

Overall summary of the respiratory viruses in circulation within the UK

coronavirus.data.gov.uk

...it does look like Wales has a good reason for wanting stricter measures. It appears to have the highest infection rate of the UK constituent countries at present.

If you look at the localised figures for Wales, Covid cases are concentrated in the south/south-east (with the worst being Newport/Gwent).
Powys and SW Wales are very low (possibly because they send their cases elsewhere, in the case of Powys to England (Shrewsbury and Hereford).
North Wales (Betsi Cadwaladr) is less than any of the south Wales boards, and comparable to Cheshire.

Tableau Public

public.tableau.com

Kawczynski is a right wing Tory of Polish origin who supports the current anti-democratic leadership in Poland.
I'd ignore what he says, personally.

In the other direction, there were residents in Shropshire who lobbied to be part of Wales so they could get free prescriptions...

Quite a lot of UK policy is not devolved, though health and education are.
Immigration policy is not devolved so the proposed quarantine rules would apply everywhere.
Not that there are many flights direct to Wales of course.
Rail is not wholly devolved either.

Llanigraham · 12 May 2020

Why am I not surprised by some of the views being posted here!!
I wonder why the same complaints aren't being made against the Scottish parliament, or the North Irish who also haven't reduced their lockdown restrictions.

Personally I suggest that Devon and Cornwall are given their independence, Westminster is devolved to just deal with the South East of England and the rest is shared out between Wales and Scotland.

scotrail158713 · 12 May 2020

Starmill said:
In particular he thinks that it is unacceptable that Shropshire residents have to drive further to reach a beach because they're not allowed to visit the ones in Wales.

Do people have to go to the beach? I don’t recall seeing it as a human right.

talltim · 12 May 2020

Perhaps the desire for access to the sea is stronger for Poles...

Mag_seven · 12 May 2020

Bletchleyite said:
I can equally see a case for pandemic response (specificially) to cease being a devolved matter.

If we are to control this virus then going forward there will need to be more localised responses rather than national ones - even within Scotland and Wales there may need to be local reposes at a county/town/city or even neighbourhood basis

CaptainHaddock said:
If anything I think it's disappointing that the Scottish and Welsh assemblies are playing to their independence and nationalism supporters instead of falling into line with Westminster.

I noticed that in yesterdays Scottish press conference it seemed to be the media that was clearly trying to stir up division, not Sturgeon, by constantly asking why Scotland was "choosing a different path to England" etc.

nlogax · 12 May 2020

As long as we have devolved parliaments for the individual countries that make up the UK then more granular / regional decisions will continue to be happen in order to maximise local and regional healthcare resources. This continues to be a hugely important tool in the wider C19 toolbox for the UK as a whole. Treating NHS England, NHS Scotland, NHS Wales and HSC as a single entity makes no sense at all.

PG · 12 May 2020

Bletchleyite said:
I can equally see a case for pandemic response (specificially) to cease being a devolved matter.

bramling said:
Yes there’s no way we can have a repeat of this fiasco. It’s one thing making regional variations, but doing it on nationalist lines makes no sense. It’s just stirred up vitriol.

FWIW I concur that it is likely to become a reserved matter in the future.

I wonder what the situation between the Republic of Ireland and Northern Ireland is, because we can be fairly certain no politicians (in their right mind!) in either country will suggest one rule to apply to both countries.

Carlisle · 12 May 2020

WelshBluebird said:
It is probably worth mentioning this from an MP who has form for saying similarly silly things in the past.

True, a fair amount of his Brexit related waffle was just laughable .

Starmill · 12 May 2020

CaptainHaddock said:
The "stay at home" soundbite is, to a large extent, out of date as - from tomorrow - there are so many permitted reasons to go out that it no longer holds true

Not in Scotland and Wales though... Therefore it's not out of date.

You can argue that it they should have the same restrictions as England but I don't agree.

This thread is primarily for discussion of whether being able to visit the beach means the Welsh Assembly, though.

Starmill · 12 May 2020

Mag_seven said:
I noticed that in yesterdays Scottish press conference it seemed to be the media that was clearly trying to stir up division, not Sturgeon, by constantly asking why Scotland was "choosing a different path to England" etc.

Yes. The First Minister stuck firmly to her remit, explaining her legal duties, and gave evidence-based justification for her decisions. She quite clearly declined to agree with the journalists who asked that the Prime Minister was acting dangerously in England.

But of course people blame her anyway for "stirring up" the nationalist front.

NorthOxonian · 12 May 2020

Mag_seven said:
If we are to control this virus then going forward there will need to be more localised responses rather than national ones - even within Scotland and Wales there may need to be local reposes at a county/town/city or even neighbourhood basis

I think you can agree with this while at the same time criticising the current national divisions. The boundary between England and Wales in particular is quite arbitrary in a lot of places, such as around Chepstow or Saltney, with significant cross-border commuting and business. It's hard to argue that everywhere should take the exact same approach going forward, but equally it seems illogical to have a situation where in one half of an estate the order is "stay at home", and in the other that isn't the case.

Starmill · 12 May 2020

NorthOxonian said:
I think you can agree with this while at the same time criticising the current national divisions. The boundary between England and Wales in particular is quite arbitrary in a lot of places, such as around Chepstow or Saltney, with significant cross-border commuting and business. It's hard to argue that everywhere should take the exact same approach going forward, but equally it seems illogical to have a situation where in one half of an estate the order is "stay at home", and in the other that isn't the case.

I could point out that most land borders are actually completely arbitrary. Perhaps the central government should have thought of this before unwisely being the only ones to deviate, bowing to lobbying pressure, from a consistent message?

Then again, if they had an effective leadership, we would already be in a position to have materially reduced restrictions, something which has as yet not happened in any part of the UK. It's not planned to for a long time either. To put it another way: results are very poor, and we may have one of the longest so-called "lockdowns" in the world as a result.

WelshBluebird · 12 May 2020

NorthOxonian said:
I think you can agree with this while at the same time criticising the current national divisions. The boundary between England and Wales in particular is quite arbitrary in a lot of places, such as around Chepstow or Saltney, with significant cross-border commuting and business. It's hard to argue that everywhere should take the exact same approach going forward, but equally it seems illogical to have a situation where in one half of an estate the order is "stay at home", and in the other that isn't the case.

I actually agree with you, but I am not sure how you can blame the Welsh government for this.
As Starmill has said above - if there are any issues in border areas then they are being caused by Westminster's changing of policy without consulting anyone else!
Maybe, as part of changing the advice, they should have thought of what advice they should give in border regions and consulted with their Welsh, Scottish and NI counterparts to work out what could work.

Starmill · 12 May 2020

In particular, the devolved administrations not only didn't undergo consultation, they didn't even receive advance notice of the changes, confidentially, in order to clarify what this would mean. Again and again, who is responsible? The Prime Minister.

CaptainHaddock · 12 May 2020

Starmill said:
In particular, the devolved administrations not only didn't undergo consultation, they didn't even receive advance notice of the changes, confidentially, in order to clarify what this would mean. Again and again, who is responsible? The Prime Minister.

Surely there are Scottish and Welsh government representatives on the SAGE committee?

yorksrob · 12 May 2020

We have lovely coastline in England as well.

Ianno87 · 12 May 2020

WelshBluebird said:
It is probably worth mentioning this from an MP who has form for saying similarly silly things in the past.

Carlisle said:
True, a fair amount of his Brexit related waffle was just laughable .

Including Tweeting the outright lie about Germany benefitting the most post-WWII from the Marshall Plan which he "stood by" despite being overwhelmingly pointed out how wrong he was.

But *somehow* people still voted him back in. Are people in Shrewsbury just idiots or something?

nlogax · 12 May 2020

Ianno87 said:
But *somehow* people still voted him back in. Are people in Shrewsbury just idiots or something?

Indeed. His Commons voting record is.. eye-opening.

TheyWorkForYou voting record of Daniel Kawczynski

CaptainHaddock said:
Surely there are Scottish and Welsh government representatives on the SAGE committee?

There appears to be a complete disconnect between what SAGE recommends, what is communicated to / consulted alongside First Ministers and what Boris Johnson implements.

LNW-GW Joint · 12 May 2020

NorthOxonian said:
I think you can agree with this while at the same time criticising the current national divisions. The boundary between England and Wales in particular is quite arbitrary in a lot of places, such as around Chepstow or Saltney, with significant cross-border commuting and business. It's hard to argue that everywhere should take the exact same approach going forward, but equally it seems illogical to have a situation where in one half of an estate the order is "stay at home", and in the other that isn't the case.

My daughter lives across the border in Chester.
We've worked out we can legally meet (at 2m distance) half way across the Dee bridge between Farndon (England) and Holt (Wales).
The border runs down the middle of the river at that point.
I'll have to pretend I'm food shopping in Holt and then "exercising".
To be fair, there's no sign the Heddlu are bothering about local travel, just the main tourist roads.

Bletchleyite · 12 May 2020

NorthOxonian said:
I think you can agree with this while at the same time criticising the current national divisions. The boundary between England and Wales in particular is quite arbitrary in a lot of places, such as around Chepstow or Saltney, with significant cross-border commuting and business. It's hard to argue that everywhere should take the exact same approach going forward, but equally it seems illogical to have a situation where in one half of an estate the order is "stay at home", and in the other that isn't the case.

There's worse than that in mainland Europe where borders have been closed right across streets.

If you lived somewhere like that you'd be well advised to do the following:
1. Go for some essential shopping. Park your car just over the border in England.
2. When you want to drive for exercise, walk over the border as part of your unlimited exercise, get in the car and drive to somewhere in England.

That would strike me as totally legal.

Bletchleyite · 12 May 2020

nlogax said:
There appears to be a complete disconnect between what SAGE recommends, what is communicated to / consulted alongside First Ministers and what Boris Johnson implements.

There will be a difference, because SAGE are scientific advisors, and Boris also needs to concern himself with non-scientific matters such as the economy.

In essence SAGE advises COBR (it can meet in room B as well

) and COBR makes the decisions based on that input but also other factors.

Conservative MP calls for Welsh Assembly to be scrapped so people can visit beach

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