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Dominic Cummings alleged breach of lockdown rules discussion

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GadgetMan

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Well, quite. I would have let it go if he had said roughly what he said, followed by "but I recognise that this was the wrong choice to have made, and apologise unreservedly to the British people that I have not adhered to the lockdown as strictly as they have correctly done".

Instead, he chose breathtaking arrogance. That's why I believe he should go, not because he made an error of judgement. I think people are normally too ready to resign over such things.


It was this that p***ed me off. I wasn't overly concerned as he's just another selfish idiot who broke the rules.

But then the PM, Hancock and co started saying it was "Responsible, Legal and with Integrity".

I wouldn't be satisfied with Cummings resigning/apologising anymore. All the Tory MPs who've pedalled the same line would also have to apologise.

The message from each one of them was clear:

If anyone in household has symptoms you absolutely MUST NOT leave home.
 
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Tetchytyke

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think people are normally too ready to resign over such things.

I think on this subject, when everyone else has had to watch loved ones die over Skype, or have not been allowed to attend funerals, resignation is the only viable option. Calderwood and Ferguson both resigned. It's interesting that Jenrick and Cummings both decided to front it out. It says a lot about the contempt they hold people in, I think.

Offering his resignation would of course put Boris in a no-win situation.

I'm not so sure it would. It would take the pressure off Boris. The trouble is that Boris is, fundamentally, brainless, and so he won't fire his brain.

As I've said further up, a more astute political operator would have cried a few crocodile tears and buggered off to a friendly think tank for 6-12 months. Boris gets to keep his brain on speed dial and gets to look strong. It always worked for Mandelson. Instead Boris looks weak and his government looks conceited.

can't really remember how Jenrick avoided the attention

Jenrick got away with it because of the poo storm about PPE and care homes. The story moved on quickly enough that few noticed just how badly he'd behaved.

I think Cummings is hoping to play the same trick again- people will forget or get bored before he does. It's what my toddler does when she's been caught red-handed being naughty. It might well work on the short term. Certainly playing the long game it'll work, Boris has a big majority and five years until the next election, he really doesn't need to care about polling for at least another 36 months.
 

Mogster

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Indeed you are most correct, but even today, the BBC seem to view this matter as worthy of "ad nauseum repitition" with various presenters playing at "prosecution counsel" as a boost to their already over-bloated egos.

Cummins is a long term enemy of the BBC. They have plenty of history.
 

Bletchleyite

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If anyone in household has symptoms you absolutely MUST NOT leave home.

Yes, exactly this. Without symptoms it would have been a bit naughty (but still visiting a holiday home, which others have resigned over). With symptoms it was inexcusable. My interpretation is certainly that the only way you leave home with symptoms is in an ambulance, and if you needed to palm a kid off on someone else they would have to come and collect them (and then self-isolate themselves for 14 days in case the kid spread it to them).

It's that that makes it all more serious than just going for a naughty jolly while apparently healthy, e.g. if I decided to go for a little drive to Wales (where the rules remain what applied when this incident took place).
 

westv

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Yes, exactly this. Without symptoms it would have been a bit naughty (but still visiting a holiday home, which others have resigned over). With symptoms it was inexcusable. My interpretation is certainly that the only way you leave home with symptoms is in an ambulance, and if you needed to palm a kid off on someone else they would have to come and collect them (and then self-isolate themselves for 14 days in case the kid spread it to them).
Surely the part of the rules mentioning children is vague so that parents have flexibility as to what to do?
 

baz962

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Surely the part of the rules mentioning children is vague so that parents have flexibility as to what to do?
But even if you could excuse that , you simply can't excuse the absolute load of cobbler's about the Barnard castle visit.
 

ashkeba

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And portrays the message that he can have large gatherings, unlike the rest of the country and his constituents.
We can all have large gatherings outdoors now, can't we, as long as we call them "press conferences"?
 

Bletchleyite

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But even if you could excuse that , you simply can't excuse the absolute load of cobbler's about the Barnard castle visit.

Yes, that's by far the worst bit. I can't think of any excuse for that, either in road safety or lockdown terms. It was clearly a jolly, and he'd do well to admit it and take the consequences.

Does his wife not drive, anyway, or is he just one of those misogynistic blokes who have to drive if they're in the car and won't let their wife?
 

westv

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But even if you could excuse that , you simply can't excuse the absolute load of cobbler's about the Barnard castle visit.

Perhaps it was like this (all a total guess I know so is probably totally wrong):-

I've got to get back to London
Are you feeling ok now?
Not sure really, I think so.
You were quite rough and didn't you mention your eyes were bit sore as well?
Yes I did.
Perhaps we can go for a short drive just to see how you feel?
Ok.

1/2 into the drive.

Yes, I feel fine driving. Shall we head back now.
Well we're quite close to Barnard Castle. Can we stop off there by the river.
if you want to.
 

NorthOxonian

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Perhaps it was like this (all a total guess I know so is probably totally wrong):-

I've got to get back to London
Are you feeling ok now?
Not sure really, I think so.
You were quite rough and didn't you mention your eyes were bit sore as well?
Yes I did.
Perhaps we can go for a short drive just to see how you feel?
Ok.

1/2 into the drive.

Yes, I feel fine driving. Shall we head back now.
Well we're quite close to Barnard Castle. Can we stop off there by the river.
if you want to.

The problem is, any route from Durham towards London isn't going to really take you via Barnard Castle. That story might make sense if he'd visited Richmond (which is just off the A1, but why would Dominic Cummings go towards Bishop Auckland and Barnard Castle? Particularly because the road between the two is notorious for being a pretty tough one.
 

baz962

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Perhaps it was like this (all a total guess I know so is probably totally wrong):-

I've got to get back to London
Are you feeling ok now?
Not sure really, I think so.
You were quite rough and didn't you mention your eyes were bit sore as well?
Yes I did.
Perhaps we can go for a short drive just to see how you feel?
Ok.

1/2 into the drive.

Yes, I feel fine driving. Shall we head back now.
Well we're quite close to Barnard Castle. Can we stop off there by the river.
if you want to.
Still against the rules and spirit of lockdown though , wasn't it. Nowhere did it say that you can test your eye's or driving capabilities. For exercise maybe , perhaps he should of claimed that.
 

Senex

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Cummins is a long term enemy of the BBC. They have plenty of history.
I've been finding it a bit odd how on BBC news programmes, especially radio ones, the presenters in interviews seem almost to have been defending Cummings in iterviews with MPs from other parties and those (few) government-side MPs who are critical. Are presenters and interviewers never told that there is a huge difference between neutral questions and leading questions?
 

Bletchleyite

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Perhaps it was like this (all a total guess I know so is probably totally wrong):-

I've got to get back to London
Are you feeling ok now?
Not sure really, I think so.
You were quite rough and didn't you mention your eyes were bit sore as well?
Yes I did.
Perhaps we can go for a short drive just to see how you feel?
Ok.

1/2 into the drive.

Yes, I feel fine driving. Shall we head back now.
Well we're quite close to Barnard Castle. Can we stop off there by the river.
if you want to.

The thing is that wasn't allowed. The people of Barnard Castle were not allowed out to go and sit by the river for a bit at that point. Why should he?
 

ainsworth74

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I've been finding it a bit odd how on BBC news programmes, especially radio ones, the presenters in interviews seem almost to have been defending Cummings in iterviews with MPs from other parties and those (few) government-side MPs who are critical. Are presenters and interviewers never told that there is a huge difference between neutral questions and leading questions?
What approach are they taking with his defenders?
 

bspahh

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I wonder if the nonsense about testing his eyesight with a drive, is something to divert attention from the fact that his wife and son had spent the night in a hospital in Durham. That information was not public before his statement.

The wife and son, spent time in an ambulance and hospital in a region which had had much lower exposure to the virus than London, and which then had a big increase in cases over the following couple of weeks, which explains the importance of the advice to Stay At Home.

BTW, this is the BBC Live Reporting page from March 27th https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/uk-england-52020644 It includes:
London warned to expect 'large number' of deaths
Sadiq Khan has warned Londoners there will be "a large number" of deaths from coronavirus and temporary mortuaries will be set up across the capital.
Just under 4,000 people in London have been infected with the virus, according to the latest government figures, and at least 180 have died.
 
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Busaholic

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Reading around the internet and although it's been mentioned here a few times, there are still far too many people trying to concentrate on Kinnock and playing the card about this only being a scandal because Cummings is Tory. Summarised, the two aren't even remotely comparable.

Look at Kinnock:

  • Kinnock dropped off supplies for his parents. Completely wrong and should be chastised for it, there isn't any defence for him.

Look at Cummings:

  • Members of the Cummings family were displaying symptoms so they upped sticks and travelled over 250 miles away from a location that arguably had the best medical care available and arrived up here to put strain on your services instead. Services that they did indeed end up using. This hasn't been emphasised enough in my opinion.
  • Once partially 'recovered' Cummings thought it would be a great idea to test if he was fit to drive by taking his wife and young family on a trip to a local beauty spot on Easter Sunday, coincidentally (or not!) this was his wifes birthday. Not only did he decide to take this completely unneccesary test which had potential dangers for his family, he was doing it to test his eyesight. This is in no way doing the right thing for his family as is repeatedly claimed.
  • On his return to London it seems Cummings did have an idea that this would come out at some point so appears to have edited his own blog to put references to a potential Coronavirus scenario which he then claimed to the public were written a long time ago and before the pandemic started. More lies.
  • When the news started to break Downing Street immediately stood by him and dressed up the Durham trip as being necessary. The Barnard Castle trip was also known about at this point as well as the unverified second trip to Durham. Downing Street dismissed these as "inaccurate" whilst further adding "We will not waste our time answering a stream of false allegations about Mr Cummings from campaigning newspapers,"
  • Cummings then made his statement giving cock and bull story about Barnard Castle, a bunch of lies about his blog to try and make himself look clever and made no apology or acknowledgment that he had done anything wrong.

Comparable? Apples and stairs.
Precisely - if you want a nearer comparison to Kinnock (who virtually nobody would have heard of if it wasn't for his father) it's Jenrick, except Jenrick's transgressions were worse.

The only way now, it would appear, that either Cummings or his stooge Johnson will have to accept what should have been blatantly obvious days ago i.e. Cummings becoming Goings, is if strong evidence is produced that he was out and about in Co Durham on another day from the ones in his statement e.g. Good Friday, because all the dates he mentioned were ones where he knew he'd been spotted, or, alternatively (and I sincerely hope it doesn't come to that) the first wave of victims is shown to be far from over. The WHO are certainly saying that,on a worldwide basis, we are still only in the middle of the first phase and any easing of lockdown measures should take account of that.
 

Dave1987

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Looks like BoJo is going to rough it out and not sack Cummings. Never known a politician to be so desperate to keep an advisor. BoJo must be seriously weak without Cummings. Probably why Cummings has such an inflated opinion of himself. Looks like BoJo would be all out of ideas if he got rid of Cummings. I thought old May was a weak PM but BoJo is far far worse. Unfortunately, he does not have to call an election for four years. One thing to come out of this is we know who the most powerful person in Government is now, an unelected special advisor who is seemingly unsackable.
 

Mogster

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Perhaps it was like this (all a total guess I know so is probably totally wrong):-

I've got to get back to London
Are you feeling ok now?
Not sure really, I think so.
You were quite rough and didn't you mention your eyes were bit sore as well?
Yes I did.
Perhaps we can go for a short drive just to see how you feel?
Ok.

1/2 into the drive.

Yes, I feel fine driving. Shall we head back now.
Well we're quite close to Barnard Castle. Can we stop off there by the river.
if you want to.

Yes, that’s what I imagine went on.

I’d be far more concerned if he’d broken the distance rules. Sitting on a bench with his family in the middle of knowhere doesn’t strike me as reckless endangerment. There couldn’t have been more righteous indignation if he’d participated in an orgy with 20 prostitutes...

I seem to remember around the same time that police forces handing out spot fines to lone sunbathers and people sat reading on park benches were being wildly lampooned in the press.
 

fgwrich

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Looks like BoJo is going to rough it out and not sack Cummings. Never known a politician to be so desperate to keep an advisor. BoJo must be seriously weak without Cummings. Probably why Cummings has such an inflated opinion of himself. Looks like BoJo would be all out of ideas if he got rid of Cummings. I thought old May was a weak PM but BoJo is far far worse. Unfortunately, he does not have to call an election for four years. One thing to come out of this is we know who the most powerful person in Government is now, an unelected special advisor who is seemingly unsackable.

I think the Guardian piece I linked to earlier in the thread summed it up nicely in these two sentences;
But why? The thing about Johnson is that he desperately wanted to become prime minister, and he desperately wanted to have been prime minister. It’s just the bit in between he struggles with.

Anyone who imagines his defence of Cummings is born of loyalty is unfamiliar with the concept “Boris Johnson”. This is actually a simple story: man with no ideas is too terrified to sack his ideas man. Or to put it in the complex intellectual terms it deserves, some street heckler once shouted at David Hasselhoff: “Oi! Hasselhoff! You’re nothing without your talking car!” Cummings is the talking car to Johnson’s Hasselhoff.

 

bspahh

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I’d be far more concerned if he’d broken the distance rules. Sitting on a bench with his family in the middle of knowhere doesn’t strike me as reckless endangerment. There couldn’t have been more righteous indignation if he’d participated in an orgy with 20 prostitutes...

I'd be concerned if his family ended up in an ambulance and hospital, where they could spread the infection that they picked up in London, to Durham.
 

Darandio

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I'd be concerned if his family ended up in an ambulance and hospital, where they could spread the infection that they picked up in London, to Durham.

They did. His child was rushed to hospital in an ambulance whilst up there. He said that his wife went to the hospital with the child, even though she had also been displaying symptoms and he picked them up the next morning.

The problem is, she wrote a completely different account which said he was in bed for 10 days with a high fever, spasms and limited breathing. This hospital trip occured on day 6 of that 10 day period, the day when she claimed his symptoms took a turn for the worse and there was a worry he needed to be hospitalised.

They cannot even make a story up between them.
 

Mogster

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They did. His child was rushed to hospital in an ambulance whilst up there. He said that his wife went to the hospital with the child, even though she had also been displaying symptoms and he picked them up the next morning.

The problem is, she wrote a completely different account which said he was in bed for 10 days with a high fever, spasms and limited breathing. This hospital trip occured on day 6 of that 10 day period.

They cannot even make a story up between them.


Is that her actual account though or one created by an over enthusiastic journo filling in gaps?

It seems the reports of him making multiple trips North were false. At least I assume they were as there’s no mention of them now.
 

Darandio

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Is that her actual account though or one created by an over enthusiastic journo filling in gaps?

It seems the reports of him making multiple trips North were false. At least I assume they were as there’s no mention of them now.

That's her account from her article in the Spectator.
 
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