Llanigraham
On Moderation
And I am sure that your place will be taken by those who are perfectly happy to wear a face covering.
-
Our booking engine at tickets.railforums.co.uk (powered by TrainSplit) helps support the running of the forum with every ticket purchase! Find out more and ask any questions/give us feedback in this thread!
Face coverings compulsory on public transport in England from 15 June
- Thread starter Saint66
- Start date
- Status
And I am sure that your place will be taken by those who are perfectly happy to wear a face covering.
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R
RailUK Forums
sjpowermac
Established Member
- Joined
- 26 May 2018
- Messages
- 1,989
WHO advice is now to wear fabric face masks in public areas where there is a risk of transmission of COVID-19.
www.reuters.com
Wear masks in public says WHO, in update of COVID-19 advice
The World Health Organization (WHO) updated its guidance on Friday to recommend that governments ask everyone to wear fabric face masks in public areas where there is a risk of transmission of COVID-19 to help reduce the spread of the pandemic disease.
www.reuters.com
The discussion was about "returning to (the old) normal". Neither of the 'rights' you suggest are a return to normal, rather they sound like one of these 'new normals' which various politicians are apparently in favour of.
sjpowermac
Established Member
- Joined
- 26 May 2018
- Messages
- 1,989
Are you arguing to go against WHO guidance? If so, wow...
Journeyman
Established Member
- Joined
- 16 Apr 2014
- Messages
- 6,295
The "new normal" is a horribly dystopian phrase. No-one seems able to say what it means, but to me it reeks of being herded around like cattle, treated like a filthy threat, and having my freedoms drastically curtailed. I absolutely do not want any of that to be considered "normal".
Until a vaccine is found, we don't have much choice. We can't return everything to 'normal' until it is safe, unless we want to say goodbye to all the elderly, disabled and vulnerable people we know (and people who don't even know they are vulnerable, with unknown illnesses)
I find it unbelievable people think we should just return everything to normal now. Yes, we certainly need to return to the closest thing to normal very soon, but we need to compromise.
This sounds reasonable to me, but what happens if a vaccine is never found? Worst case scenario I admit, but not impossible and this situation needs to be considered. I don't think telling people they can't enjoy their hobbies or physical connection with their loved ones forever is going to go down well, in fact I shudder to think of the long term impacts on people that would result. It is going to be bad enough if we approach Christmas in the same situation we are in now (no sorry you can't see your loved ones over Christmas and exchange gifts and have a full Christmas meal together around the table, if you live alone and isolated from family, hard luck. Good luck with that).
Sadly this virus has evolved as it has. Nobody asked for it. But it is what it is.
Sadly we might have to say goodbye to some people - just as we do to the many thousands of poor souls who die of flu every year.
“Until a vaccine is found” - it may never be found!
I can only assume you’re either retired or independently wealthy enough not to have a mortgage?!
Journeyman
Established Member
- Joined
- 16 Apr 2014
- Messages
- 6,295
That's ridiculously exaggerated, and certainly not what we did in the past, when outbreaks of diseases now considered rare and minor regularly killed thousands of people (measles, TB etc). For the vast majority of the population, COVID-19 is not particularly dangerous.
Blimey. What do you think the death rate is and where do you get your information from?
Whatever makes you think that ? Wow.
Islineclear3_1
Established Member
The environment around us will never be "safe"
People will always get colds/flu and spread their germs in the air
People will have contagious diseases but if they "feel well", they will go out
There is lots of harmful microwave radiation and other pollutants in the environment
Even vaccines are not 100% safe
Face masks are hideous and will never be safe
I too can't stand the term "new normal". I would rather have the "old normal" thanks. I'm old and ugly enough to make my own choices in life
People will always get colds/flu and spread their germs in the air
People will have contagious diseases but if they "feel well", they will go out
There is lots of harmful microwave radiation and other pollutants in the environment
Even vaccines are not 100% safe
Face masks are hideous and will never be safe
I too can't stand the term "new normal". I would rather have the "old normal" thanks. I'm old and ugly enough to make my own choices in life
The question you need to ask yourself is: how reasonable will that sound to your mortgage company?
When their bailiffs are repossessing your house?!
Grecian 1998
Member
Whilst I am instinctively against face masks and will only wear one when compelled, I can't see them being around for that long, as they make it much easier to commit crime. If there is a spate of violent public robberies or worse due to the fact masks make it much easier to blend into a crowd before and afterwards, the public debate will quickly swing against them.
It was only 8 months ago that Hong Kong actually banned them in public: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-china-49931598
(I'm not suggesting the HK protesters were all criminals, just making the point that masks will inevitably cause a safety v security clash at some point.)
It was only 8 months ago that Hong Kong actually banned them in public: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-china-49931598
(I'm not suggesting the HK protesters were all criminals, just making the point that masks will inevitably cause a safety v security clash at some point.)
Last edited:
Mintona
Established Member
A few train drivers I know have said there is no way they will be wearing a mask and will be going home if pressured into doing so, and the trains won’t run.
Current guidance at several TOCs is that drivers must not wear masks whilst in the driving seat as they can be a distraction (they can wear masks when performing other duties or passing through the saloon).
It would surprise me if wearing of masks is made compulsory for drivers whilst in the cab I'm pretty sure there will be an exemption, although there may be a ruling that when there are more than one person in the cab masks would need to be worn.
With 40,000+ deaths these are hardly "normal" times.
Journeyman
Established Member
- Joined
- 16 Apr 2014
- Messages
- 6,295
But many of those deaths are likely to have occurred anyway. Without any analysis, the numbers alone are meaningless. As someone upthread mentioned, a previous outbreak of Hong Kong flu in this country killed about 80,000, and we carried on as normal.
Journeyman
Established Member
- Joined
- 16 Apr 2014
- Messages
- 6,295
As I've said before, it's because a number of businesses will reopen on that day, and public transport use is expected to increase.
Never going to happen. I have the cash to pay off my mortgage if it ever became necessary, and I am still in employment. These are two reasons why I personally am not as stressed about the whole situation as I could be, however others are not so lucky, and I feel more for them than myself. Now may not be the right time to return to complete normality, but that should be the ultimate goal, as I think a long term lockdown would be extremely destructive in itself. It is not about preventing all deaths from COVID, it is about keeping the death rate to a level which the NHS can cope with. Is it theoretically possible to keep the death rate down to copable levels and for us all to return to a normal lilfe? I don't know the answer to this, and I don't know how quickly or whether at all a vaccine will be available, but if a vaccine isn't developed and a return to normal life would result in a transmission rate beyond the capabilities of the NHS without a vaccine, then the only solutions are to accept a collapse of the health service with a resultant big increase in annual death toll, or accept severe restrictions on our lives for the forseeable future.
I should add that I am not clear what exactly counts as a COVID death statistic. Is it anyone who has died and had COVID at the time of death, or is those who died because of COVID. If it is the former, the actual death toll directly from COVID will be lower than the 40,000 figure. The issue with the NHS is that COVID is causing the frail and weak to die (straw that breaks the camel's back) quickly over a short time period, whereas without the disease, those same people would have died of whatever else they were suffering from over a much longer time period. The NHS can cope with the latter, but notn the former. Maybe we have to increase the capacity of the NHS by building many more hospitals and employing many more nurses to take up expected COVID demand and treat this new disease and an increased annual death toll as a new normal, with the healthy living the lives they lived before.
A lot of speculation by me, and I admit I don't have the facts to make a solid objective opinion.
Indeed. But, as I've explained, I think going out and about and doing more normal sort of thing but subject to social distancing and face coverings are fundamentally "returning to [the old] normal", by comparison with literally staying at home all the time.
I can see why you'd disagree, but for me the idea of travelling by rail in the future, with a mask, is far more "normal" than not travelling by rail until a vaccine is available. Even though it's uncomfortable.
Journeyman
Established Member
- Joined
- 16 Apr 2014
- Messages
- 6,295
We actually need to learn how to live with this, because there ain't no way we can carry on living under these restrictions. Right now, all of the things that make my life enjoyable and varied are prohibited under some of the most draconian legislation ever passed in this country. Every. Single. Thing.
On top of that, my previously decent finances are increasingly under strain. I'm not alone in feeling this way. It's trying everyone's patience. I need to get my eyes tested, but can't. I need my ears syringes, but can't. I need a haircut, but can't. I want to see friends and family, but can't. These things are all adding up, and it's fast becoming completely intolerable.
PudseyBearHST
Member
What about if we don‘t want to wear a mask travelling to and from work? There are some drivers that commute on public Transport.
PG
Established Member
First off I realise that since some of the quotes I'm quoting were made the WHO has advised that governments should encourage people to wear face coverings in public areas where there is a risk of transmission.
Note that they say encourage not force or mandate.
Also see quote from @johntea below!
Note that they say encourage not force or mandate.
First public transport, now hospitals, next xxxx, ...., then anytime you step outside your front door.
Also see quote from @johntea below!
Agreed, if enough people comply with this requirement it then becomes the de facto position (not just on transport modes), it will be difficult to ever get rid of the requirement.
Yeah, just about!
Yes this is, for me, the main point.
Governments change and even if the current one intend this as a temporary measure who is to say a future one might not see otherwise?
Presumably none of the despatch staff will need to blow a whistle during their duties!
Ive seen next to no whistles being blown as part of the dispatch procedure during the past few weeks; at York, all the Manchester stations, Leeds, Sheffield. They’ve just held up the white baton or used a light at night.
I'm sure I saw clarification that from the Government guidance point of view, face coverings would only berequired to be worn in the vehicles themselves - which is sensible to my mind, as platform/concourse areas are generally outdoors. In which case, it seems unduly harsh and quite bizarre if the RMT have strong-armed NR into forcing station staff to wear them at all times, even where they're not required by everyone else !
nedchester
Established Member
- Joined
- 28 May 2008
- Messages
- 2,093
While the face coverings on public transport in the short term ( a few months) don’t actually bother me, I also hate the phrase “new normal”. I rather liked the old normal myself.
The whole of our society and economy was built on the old normal and we have to get back to that very soon. The consequences of not doing that don’t bear thinking about.
However, do people think millions of unemployed are OK with pubs, restaurants, cinemas, public transport cut back, holidays stopped, hotels shut, airlines stopped from flying etc. This will cause the ruining of millions of lives. Poverty is one of the main drivers of ill health and suicides will go through the roof.
The deaths from Covid-19 will look small in comparison.
Bantamzen
Established Member
What will be interesting is how quickly the government, as well as the maskivists jump on the advice and turn it into a requirement, enforceable by fines. I expect this to happen as early as next week, and given that the government doubled the distancing advised by the WHO, I wouldn't be surprised to hear them demanding that we are muzzled whenever outside. So enjoy the fresh air this weekend, it may be the last you can for a very long time!
We have already seen how some people have turned into lockdown vigilantes, so it's pretty much nailed on that once applied it will be extremely difficult to undo. Quite honestly my heart sank when I heard the shift in position from the WHO. I would certainly be interested to read the actual scientific evidence that masks will make anything more than a fraction of a difference, but looking on their website they haven't even updated their advice yet, so I am slightly concerned that the position held for half a year isn't yet publicly justified. And I am even more concerned that a dangerous new precedent has been set, that is to say that we should now treat our fellow humans as immediate dangers to ourselves. This will not end well.
Can someone please stop the Earth please? I want to get off....
- Status