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Transdev Blazefield

philthetube

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Also because they run quality vehicles, for the most part, they will survive longer.
 
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Stan Drews

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Up until about 2005-ish when Blazefield used to buy buses for the flagship routes and then cascade the vehicles they replaced down. But since they've been leasing and not buying the buses when the lease expires they've got nothing to cascade down. Which is why we're in the situation where we've got near enough 20 year old heavy weight B10s on town services, and 15 year old B7TLs repainted and pushed back out onto an intense front line service on the Pendle Wizz, or having to buy second hand buses in to fill the gaps (the gop-eyed Presidents for example)

I don't actually think there's anything wrong with using older buses as long as reliability and comfort don't suffer. The B10s, still brilliant machines and I could happily spend all day on one. The B7s they've got on the 152 and now Pendle Wizz don't seem to be too bad either, although with low emission zones popping up across various cities the places they can go will be limited. Which explains why it now seems the Euro 5 B9s on the Witch Way seem to be heading to depots that operate into Leeds...
1) They can quite easily cascade buses that have been leased, as they have demonstrated numerous times over the years. Often with a comprehensive refurbishment thrown in too!
2) The B10BLEs are still in use because they were purchased, and their net book value was still far greater than their actual worth if sold on. It was therefore more economical to refurbish them and put them on marginal routes around Burnley that wouldn’t be viable with new buses - purchased or leased.
3) The Skipton end of the Witch Way is also fairly marginal, and again would probably struggle with the additional cost burden of the new vehicles coming for the part of the route that makes the money. So, once again it made sense to retain the existing buses with a bit of a refresh for the Pendle Wizz. Bought/leased - irrelevant once more!
4) They have purchased older DD vehicles to either replace older step entrance buses on school work or for use within the TfGM area. Nothing to do with leasing or buying.
5) The WitchWay B9s are being retained because they have routes to which they can be sensibly redeployed, presumably based on an agreeable lease extension or purchase price.

I have no idea why so many people have such an issue with this leasing/purchasing argument, but take it from someone who has worked on the commercial management side of the bus industry for the best part of 20 years, it really doesn’t make any great difference when you are doing the route costing sums!
 

Stan Drews

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Does Blazefield really need 190 replacement buses? How many of these 190 are in frontline service and not confined schools/contract services? How many of the vehicles have been given an extensive refurbishment during their lives?

As other people have mentioned, as long as it's well maintained and comfortable and meets any current regulations, I can't see a problem with them running older vehicles - indeed, given the way some bus services have been going, it may be the case between them running vehicles of that age or no service at all...
You are right. They don’t need anything like that number of replacement buses. Based on the average life cycle of a bus, Transdev actually have a very good record of annual investment in new vehicles.
 

Tetchytyke

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It was therefore more economical to refurbish them and put them on marginal routes around Burnley that wouldn’t be viable with new buses - purchased or leased.

it really doesn’t make any great difference when you are doing the route costing sums!

I'm confused and probably missing something obvious, but isn't this contradictory?

If you're on a tender, like in London, leasing makes sense, especially if abnormal specs are needed, like in London. The fiasco of the Citaro bendies proves that much.

But with a more traditional operation, like Blazefield, historically I thought you'd buy new for the flagship routes that can carry the depreciation and amortisation. As those buses age, they move down the pecking order until after 20-odd years they go off to the scrappy.

The issue with leasing would appear to my amateur eyes to be that you can't cascade something you've sent back to the finance company. Although, fairly obviously, if the finance company can't do anything with the returned bus you're in a strong bargaining position to buy or extend the lease on favourable terms.

Age of buses doesn't necessarily bother people, the Transdev B10BLE Renowns are probably in better nick than buses that are ten years younger at some operations (CoughFirstCough).
 

Stan Drews

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I'm confused and probably missing something obvious, but isn't this contradictory?

If you're on a tender, like in London, leasing makes sense, especially if abnormal specs are needed, like in London. The fiasco of the Citaro bendies proves that much.

But with a more traditional operation, like Blazefield, historically I thought you'd buy new for the flagship routes that can carry the depreciation and amortisation. As those buses age, they move down the pecking order until after 20-odd years they go off to the scrappy.

The issue with leasing would appear to my amateur eyes to be that you can't cascade something you've sent back to the finance company. Although, fairly obviously, if the finance company can't do anything with the returned bus you're in a strong bargaining position to buy or extend the lease on favourable terms.

Age of buses doesn't necessarily bother people, the Transdev B10BLE Renowns are probably in better nick than buses that are ten years younger at some operations (CoughFirstCough).

An important component of the operating cost is the element that relates to the acquisition of the bus.
If purchased that will generally be taking the purchase cost and depreciating that over the expected life of the bus, assuming a residual net book value.
E.G. £190,000 over 15 years with a residual value of £10,000.
So, 180,000/15 = 12,000/12 = £1,000 per month
If leased it more simply equates to the agreed monthly lease cost, which as you’d imagine will depend on the length of the lease, which for the this example is £1,000 per month!

In reality the initial lease cost will often be higher than the straight line depreciation example, but then be lower when extended, so over the vehicle life, no real difference. One advantage of leasing is that you are less likely to be lumbered with mid-life buses you’d prefer to get rid off, but may not be able to realise your net book value by selling on the open market at the time.

When costing routes there will be a proportion of your fixed pence per mile rate that covers the lease or depreciation cost, but it’s likely to be very similar. It certainly has within the various operators I have crunched the numbers for who have you used both methods.
 

upasalmon

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Then it is possible that Transdev'sbuses will get older and older, many of the Volvo B7 dds could still be running at 25 yo if there is no pros p ect of replacement. Second hand replacement only postpones the problem for the future. Older buses don't follow emission standards.
An example is MTL in the early 90s. Unable to buy new buses 1970s Leyland Atlanteans were replaced by ex London Leyland Titans from the 1980s. Result? nearly 400 buses from the 1980s by the late 1990s MTL had to sell to Arrival in 2000 but the Titan story doesn't end there. Arrival had to sell Gillmoss garage to GTL in 2001. GTL took the by then elderly Titans and ADDED MORE. When these reached 25 yo GTL had to purchase ex Stagecoach single Decker's of the early 1990s . By 2005 the cost of this creaking fleet brought GTL down and Stagecoach rescued them, investing the first new vehicles for years. London's bus operators lease vehicles but London is a regulated market and the TFL insists on high standards for buses running in the capital. Even cities like Leeds, York and Harrogate are implementing low emission policies which Blazefield are having to adhere to. Transdev will have to up their game in the 2020s.
 

Ashly_Jethro

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Transdev will have to up their game in the 2020s.

Up their game? Harrogate it the UK’s first low emissions bus town, and who runs those busses? Transdev do. Over the past 5 years, they’ve really stepped up, bringing in ultra high speck, low emissions busses that put most other operators to shame. Yes they’re still using a number of older vehicles but they quickly moving their way through the fleet.
 

Tetchytyke

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When costing routes there will be a proportion of your fixed pence per mile rate that covers the lease or depreciation cost, but it’s likely to be very similar. It certainly has within the various operators I have crunched the numbers for who have you used both methods.

It's interesting, thank you.

I always assumed an operator would put their oldest buses on the lowest margin routes for the simple reason the depreciation will already have been paid for- unless they're trying to dump all the expensive stuff in one loss-making budget/division/OpCo. If an operator doesn't have any of these old buses then it has an impact on viability of the lowest margin routes.

If you've not got the later-life buses coming through, the low margin routes will cost more to run as you'll have to buy or lease secondhand buses?

I guess one advantage of leasing is that if you buy a pup it becomes someone else's problem at the end of the lease.

Yes they’re still using a number of older vehicles but they quickly moving their way through the fleet.

Yet on the other hand Transdev are still using B10BLE Renowns that everyone else got rid of a few years ago, because they had buses to cascade down.

Yes, they've looked after them really well, and credit to them for that- you really wouldn't know the Renowns and Presidents were that old. But it's interesting they haven't been replaced.
 
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Andyh82

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Then it is possible that Transdev'sbuses will get older and older, many of the Volvo B7 dds could still be running at 25 yo if there is no pros p ect of replacement. Second hand replacement only postpones the problem for the future. Older buses don't follow emission standards.
An example is MTL in the early 90s. Unable to buy new buses 1970s Leyland Atlanteans were replaced by ex London Leyland Titans from the 1980s. Result? nearly 400 buses from the 1980s by the late 1990s MTL had to sell to Arrival in 2000 but the Titan story doesn't end there. Arrival had to sell Gillmoss garage to GTL in 2001. GTL took the by then elderly Titans and ADDED MORE. When these reached 25 yo GTL had to purchase ex Stagecoach single Decker's of the early 1990s . By 2005 the cost of this creaking fleet brought GTL down and Stagecoach rescued them, investing the first new vehicles for years. London's bus operators lease vehicles but London is a regulated market and the TFL insists on high standards for buses running in the capital. Even cities like Leeds, York and Harrogate are implementing low emission policies which Blazefield are having to adhere to. Transdev will have to up their game in the 2020s.
Are you actually familiar with Transdev's operations and what they use those older buses on, and how many of those older buses have had extensive mid-life refurbishments?

Because it sounds like you are basing your argument on a purely spreadsheet basis, having looked at numbers on a fleetlist?
 

RustySpoons

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I have no idea why so many people have such an issue with this leasing/purchasing argument, but take it from someone who has worked on the commercial management side of the bus industry for the best part of 20 years, it really doesn’t make any great difference when you are doing the route costing sums!

Neither do I, which is why I pointed out that as long as reliability and comfort don't suffer, there's no issue with using older buses.

My point was that if they had bought new buses instead of leasing, they'd have more than likely had vehicles to cascade down rather than having to buy second hand buses.
 

Stan Drews

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Then it is possible that Transdev'sbuses will get older and older, many of the Volvo B7 dds could still be running at 25 yo if there is no pros p ect of replacement. Second hand replacement only postpones the problem for the future. Older buses don't follow emission standards.
Neither do I, which is why I pointed out that as long as reliability and comfort don't suffer, there's no issue with using older buses.

My point was that if they had bought new buses instead of leasing, they'd have more than likely had vehicles to cascade down rather than having to buy second hand buses.
Blazefield have a relatively small number of DD routes, and they are largely high profile ones with high spec buses. The others tend to be school contracts with varying age limits, so it may not be financially sensible to cascade them from one to the other, hence the second hand purchase at times of suitable buses.
The TWM B7s were in excellent condition for their age and available at a very attractive price. If they continue to be well looked after they’ll happily cover school contract mileage at 25 years old.
 

northrob

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Then it is possible that Transdev'sbuses will get older and older, many of the Volvo B7 dds could still be running at 25 yo if there is no pros p ect of replacement. Second hand replacement only postpones the problem for the future. Older buses don't follow emission standards.

Does that age matter if they're restricted to schools or contract services only - not many operators is going to invest in a load of new buses just to be used a couple of times a day on these type of contracts. Oh and you can upgrade older buses to current emission standards - you can even get funding for it, as shown below:


City of York Council has awarded more than £1.6m to five bus companies to help them prepare for its upcoming Clean Air Zone (CAZ) for buses.

When the CAZ launches on January 31, every bus operating frequent services on or within York’s inner ring road will be required to meet the Euro VI emission standard, or have a plan in place that will enable them to meet the standard within 12 months.

Once fitted with the equipment required to reduce emissions, the buses must then operate on routes serving the CAZ in York city centre for a minimum of five years.

The only buses that will be exempt from the requirements are those that enter the Clean Air Zone fewer than five times each day and those due to be retrofitted or replaced before 31 January 2021.

Bus operators were invited to bid for CAZ funding to help them meet the cost of retrofitting or replacing their vehicles, and a total of £1,654,000 has been allocated to the following:

Arriva Yorkshire: £252,000 to retrofit 14 buses.
First York: £1,188,000 to retrofit 66 buses.
Harrogate Coach Travel: £70,000 to retrofit 5 buses.
Reliance Motor Services: £72,000 to retrofit 4 buses and a further £54,000 towards the cost of three new Euro VI buses (total grant of £126,000).
Transdev: £18,000 to retrofit one bus.

Are you actually familiar with Transdev's operations and what they use those older buses on, and how many of those older buses have had extensive mid-life refurbishments?

Because it sounds like you are basing your argument on a purely spreadsheet basis, having looked at numbers on a fleetlist?

I get that feeling too - I just did a little look at the Transdev fleetlist for the West Yorkshire Information Service website and came up with 189 vehicles that came in the 1995-2005 age range. Unfortunately, I don't know the operations well enough to know how many of these are in frontline service - however I know I can discount a few.

Of these, 38 appear to be dedicated school buses due to the livery that it carries (although the actual number of school buses will be far higher than that) and 6 are sightseeing buses for York. At least a further 33 are mentioned as having been refurbished so I think they should also be discounted.
 

Swimbar

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Up their game? Harrogate it the UK’s first low emissions bus town, and who runs those busses? Transdev do. Over the past 5 years, they’ve really stepped up, bringing in ultra high speck, low emissions busses that put most other operators to shame. Yes they’re still using a number of older vehicles but they quickly moving their way through the fleet.
I am not sure that Jo Public are that bothered about the fact that the buses (not busses) have been had their emissions cut.
The fact is that the fares in Harrogate are far higher than in most other areas of the country.
If they made the fare structure more attractive more people would use the bus.
Car traffic in the area is horrendous
 

northrob

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The fact is that the fares in Harrogate are far higher than in most other areas of the country.
If they made the fare structure more attractive more people would use the bus.

Possibly - however, in most cases for the deregulated environment, making the fares more attractive only works for the bus company if the increased ridership delivers a better return...
 

cnjb8

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With the leasing thing, I guess its logical to see a 2012 B7RLE replacing a 2001 B10BLE. It used to bother me because I thought why would you continue to run an older, more expensive bus when youre disposing of newer ones. Now, I can see why it's the preferred option for Blazefield.
 

Andyh82

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Does that age matter if they're restricted to schools or contract services only - not many operators is going to invest in a load of new buses just to be used a couple of times a day on these type of contracts. Oh and you can upgrade older buses to current emission standards - you can even get funding for it, as shown below:


City of York Council has awarded more than £1.6m to five bus companies to help them prepare for its upcoming Clean Air Zone (CAZ) for buses.

When the CAZ launches on January 31, every bus operating frequent services on or within York’s inner ring road will be required to meet the Euro VI emission standard, or have a plan in place that will enable them to meet the standard within 12 months.

Once fitted with the equipment required to reduce emissions, the buses must then operate on routes serving the CAZ in York city centre for a minimum of five years.

The only buses that will be exempt from the requirements are those that enter the Clean Air Zone fewer than five times each day and those due to be retrofitted or replaced before 31 January 2021.

Bus operators were invited to bid for CAZ funding to help them meet the cost of retrofitting or replacing their vehicles, and a total of £1,654,000 has been allocated to the following:

Arriva Yorkshire: £252,000 to retrofit 14 buses.
First York: £1,188,000 to retrofit 66 buses.
Harrogate Coach Travel: £70,000 to retrofit 5 buses.
Reliance Motor Services: £72,000 to retrofit 4 buses and a further £54,000 towards the cost of three new Euro VI buses (total grant of £126,000).
Transdev: £18,000 to retrofit one bus.



I get that feeling too - I just did a little look at the Transdev fleetlist for the West Yorkshire Information Service website and came up with 189 vehicles that came in the 1995-2005 age range. Unfortunately, I don't know the operations well enough to know how many of these are in frontline service - however I know I can discount a few.

Of these, 38 appear to be dedicated school buses due to the livery that it carries (although the actual number of school buses will be far higher than that) and 6 are sightseeing buses for York. At least a further 33 are mentioned as having been refurbished so I think they should also be discounted.
For example except for a couple of examples here and there you can almost discount all the double deckers that are not route branded, very few of these are in public service, or if they are it’s in a spare role.

Looking at single decks, you’ve got the school buses, the Valleyline and Burnley Renowns have been refurbished, the City Sightseeing fleet is due to be replaced, the Keighley Shuttle had Harrogate The 1 buses were also refurbished.
 

RustySpoons

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For example except for a couple of examples here and there you can almost discount all the double deckers that are not route branded, very few of these are in public service, or if they are it’s in a spare role.

Looking at single decks, you’ve got the school buses, the Valleyline and Burnley Renowns have been refurbished, the City Sightseeing fleet is due to be replaced, the Keighley Shuttle had Harrogate The 1 buses were also refurbished.

With regards to the Renowns, they could effectively run them into the ground. They've paid for themselves over and over again, which will more than offset the poor fuel economy. Plus they have no local low emission targets to meet.

I believe the Keighley Shuttle B7s have had exhaust/engine mods similar to the Harrogate 1's so they meet slightly stricter emissions targets. As long as reliability doesn't become an issue there's plenty of life left in them.
 

upasalmon

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With regards to the Renowns, they could effectively run them into the ground. They've paid for themselves over and over again, which will more than offset the poor fuel economy. Plus they have no local low emission targets to meet.

I believe the Keighley Shuttle B7s have had exhaust/engine mods similar to the Harrogate 1's so they meet slightly stricter emissions targets. As long as reliability doesn't become an issue there's plenty of life left in them.
We
With regards to the Renowns, they could effectively run them into the ground. They've paid for themselves over and over again, which will more than offset the poor fuel economy. Plus they have no local low emission targets to meet.

I believe the Keighley Shuttle B7s have had exhaust/engine mods similar to the Harrogate 1's so they meet slightly stricter emissions targets. As long as reliability doesn't become an issue there's plenty of life left in them.
Up their game? Harrogate it the UK’s first low emissions bus town, and who runs those busses? Transdev do. Over the past 5 years, they’ve really stepped up, bringing in ultra high speck, low emissions busses that put most other operators to shame. Yes they’re still using a number of older vehicles but they quickly moving their way through the fleet.
I accept that Transdev have invested in new buses and engines for LEZ areas. But other local authorities want LE buses in their area and will want to catch up with Leeds, Harrogate and York as they are not exempt from climate change. The 20 yo buses of today are better than the awful Leyland Titans I mentioned earlier and I concede that not all the 165 buses of age need to be replaced by new buses (a good bargain would be the ten Volvo B9s due to be sold by Bus Vannin).:But Warrington, outside the Blazefield area wants ALL. ELECTRIC buses in the town, is a sign post to the future thinking of local authorities Blackburn and Burnley may want to follow a similar line.
 

Stan Drews

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I accept that Transdev have invested in new buses and engines for LEZ areas. But other local authorities want LE buses in their area and will want to catch up with Leeds, Harrogate and York as they are not exempt from climate change.
They have invested in a significant amount of new buses for their Burnley and Blackburn depots over the last few years, none of which have been due to LEZ areas.
 

Tetchytyke

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Keighley Shuttle B7s

Interesting you mention those. Clearly Transdev do think the age of the bus matters to passengers, because they bought cherished plates for them all to disguise their age.

But yes, they are still in good nick. Transdev have looked after them, even going so far as to put the new-style headlight clusters on them at refurbishment (not my photos):


 
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TheGrandWazoo

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Interesting you mention those. Clearly Transdev do think the age of the bus matters to passengers, because they bought cherished plates for them all to disguise their age.

But yes, they are still in good nick. Transdev have looked after them, even going so far as to put the new-style headlight clusters on them at refurbishment (not my photos):



Not been on those but similar aged Bronte Bus example last year. I mean, you know it's not a new bus but you'd not have known it was 14 years old.
 

Dallamlad

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Latest small talk is out and confirms Hotline will get an upgrade later this year.

Also talks about the Red Express upgrade. Will be interesting to see if the deckers make a return and in what livery!
20200605_221240.jpg
 

Andyh82

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I believe single decks on the Red Express are permanent and this doesn’t say otherwise

Improving the Hotline fleet throws more questions into the mix
 

RustySpoons

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I believe single decks on the Red Express are permanent and this doesn’t say otherwise

Improving the Hotline fleet throws more questions into the mix

I feel the single decks on the RedEx at the moment are pretty well suited. Although I believe there are only three of them at Intack, will this be enough once the route gets back running to normal timetables?

If the WW B9s end up in Yorkshire, is there anything else that could be cascaded to take over on the 152? Only deckers I can think of that are 'free' would be the ex RedEx/CityZaps B7TLs... but surely not!
 

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