Wyrleybart
Established Member
It isn't.
There is at least one open access TOC which uses unpaid Ambassadors at weekends. Their "renumeration" is free travel with the company.
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RMT in dispute with SWR regarding ‘guardian angels’
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It isn't.
There is at least one open access TOC which uses unpaid Ambassadors at weekends. Their "renumeration" is free travel with the company.
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the sniper
Established Member
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As we enter an unprecedented era of economic disruption, you'd be deliberating over whether or not to ban trade unions... There's no hope.
lordbusiness
Member
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- 187
As I understand it, the volunteers (if it goes ahead) will be assisting in managing social distancing queues OUTSIDE busy stations, where capacity on trains and the station itself require it. They won't get anywhere near a train or anything remotely railway related. The whole idea came from a certain Minister, taken on by Govt/ DfT and was effectively forced on TOCs who are now trying to make it work by doing what the Govt demand, while at the same time appeasing the Unions and alaying the concerns of the workforce.
For once, I'm sort of with the RMT on this- the real losers are the agency staff who are doing the job now.
Personally standing in the rain for 3 hours listening to a load of p****d off passengers telling you how s**t the railway is doesn''t appeal. A different kettle of fish to stewarding at the London Marathon or other big events where people actually want to be there! I suspect a lot will do a day or two then not bother when they realise it's a bum deal and they're just there to be Aunt Sally and are not going to be playing trains.
My money is on deploying 'surplus' railway staff first, augmenting with volunteers if required at busy stations. After a few days, a week or so, the volunteers will dry up and the agency staff will be back.
For once, I'm sort of with the RMT on this- the real losers are the agency staff who are doing the job now.
Personally standing in the rain for 3 hours listening to a load of p****d off passengers telling you how s**t the railway is doesn''t appeal. A different kettle of fish to stewarding at the London Marathon or other big events where people actually want to be there! I suspect a lot will do a day or two then not bother when they realise it's a bum deal and they're just there to be Aunt Sally and are not going to be playing trains.
My money is on deploying 'surplus' railway staff first, augmenting with volunteers if required at busy stations. After a few days, a week or so, the volunteers will dry up and the agency staff will be back.
Seems sensible but there is no way that the union would allow any 'surplus' railway office staff to undertake another role.
If HM Government were to invoke emergency powers to prevent strikes in the railway industry it would have popular support
The travelling public have had enough!
Really? Every year we have office staff and managers volunteer to come and help throw luggage around and herd people on to trains in the summer season.
Every year at big events we see managers at events like Wimbledon, Bournemouth Air Festival etc etc.
I seem to recall that there was concern they may be used in safety critical roles, and this is where the safety aspect comes from.
some quotes from Richard Clinnicks Twitter (ill add the hyperlinks in shortly). The posts are in reverse date order and have been rumbling on since 01/06. If their role is crowd control then that’s a job for the likes of STM, not someone unpaid. I’ve seen the types who run First transport solutions rail replacement, I’m not sure if their paid but some very much get a kick out of having a HV and a clipboard. I can well imagine the types that will apply.
I seem to recall that there was concern they may be used in safety critical roles, and this is where the safety aspect comes from.
some quotes from Richard Clinnicks Twitter (ill add the hyperlinks in shortly). The posts are in reverse date order and have been rumbling on since 01/06. If their role is crowd control then that’s a job for the likes of STM, not someone unpaid. I’ve seen the types who run First transport solutions rail replacement, I’m not sure if their paid but some very much get a kick out of having a HV and a clipboard. I can well imagine the types that will apply.
DarloRich
Veteran Member
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Thank you for the vote of confidence, not everyone shares the same view!
But no, I wasn’t.
The RMT’s gripe, taken directly from their press release, seems to be that using unpaid people is “unsafe and dangerous”, and would put “the volunteers, our members, and the travelling public at risk”
Following that logic, If a member of the travelling public took a SWR train from Waterloo to Alton in early July the RMT deems it ‘unsafe and dangerous’ for a willing volunteer to show them the way through a one way system outside the station, or point them towards the ticket office, but has no view on the volunteer at Alton who will sell them a ticket on the Watercress line, or another volunteer that checks their ticket on the train to Alresford, or signal the train at Four Marks, etc etc?
How is it different?
I’ve done jobs at the very lowest level of a number of organisations, sometimes for years. It wouldn’t worry me in the slightest. As has been explained by others the volunteers are not doing the CSA job.
Thank you for the vote of confidence, not everyone shares the same view!
But no, I wasn’t.
The RMT’s gripe, taken directly from their press release, seems to be that using unpaid people is “unsafe and dangerous”, and would put “the volunteers, our members, and the travelling public at risk”
Following that logic, If a member of the travelling public took a SWR train from Waterloo to Alton in early July the RMT deems it ‘unsafe and dangerous’ for a willing volunteer to show them the way through a one way system outside the station, or point them towards the ticket office, but has no view on the volunteer at Alton who will sell them a ticket on the Watercress line, or another volunteer that checks their ticket on the train to Alresford, or signal the train at Four Marks, etc etc?
How is it different?
I’ve done jobs at the very lowest level of a number of organisations, sometimes for years. It wouldn’t worry me in the slightest. As has been explained by others the volunteers are not doing the CSA job.
Here's a controversial question, should we also ban volunteers from helping keeping stations clean/presentable?
Clearly this is a job which could be done by a paid member of staff, has H&S consequences if things go wrong and brings benefit to the railways (which is a multi billion pounds industry).
Whilst I agree that there's a need for staff and getting people to do this job for free undermines this there's also a balance to be had at this time where there could be railway staff shielding or off due to illness (even if this isn't Covid-19 but has similar symptoms which would have in the past been worked through because they are mild, but now requires up to 14 days away from post).
I'm not saying that the RMT isn't right to highlight that the volunteers should have suitable training, including knowing how and when to get to get staff involved. However I am suggesting that the wording of the press release and some of the responses in this thread can come across as a bit strong in objecting to this temporary situation.
One thing to bear in mind, is that this could give people the opportunity to experience a tiny bit of what working on the railways is like and so may give them the experience to have the chance of doing a job which they otherwise might not have had the opportunity to do.
Therefore, if the unions are too hostel towards them, then I doubt that when they are an employee, that they'll be interested in being a union member. Even though there's benefits of being a member.
Clearly this is a job which could be done by a paid member of staff, has H&S consequences if things go wrong and brings benefit to the railways (which is a multi billion pounds industry).
Whilst I agree that there's a need for staff and getting people to do this job for free undermines this there's also a balance to be had at this time where there could be railway staff shielding or off due to illness (even if this isn't Covid-19 but has similar symptoms which would have in the past been worked through because they are mild, but now requires up to 14 days away from post).
I'm not saying that the RMT isn't right to highlight that the volunteers should have suitable training, including knowing how and when to get to get staff involved. However I am suggesting that the wording of the press release and some of the responses in this thread can come across as a bit strong in objecting to this temporary situation.
One thing to bear in mind, is that this could give people the opportunity to experience a tiny bit of what working on the railways is like and so may give them the experience to have the chance of doing a job which they otherwise might not have had the opportunity to do.
Therefore, if the unions are too hostel towards them, then I doubt that when they are an employee, that they'll be interested in being a union member. Even though there's benefits of being a member.
Diplodicus
Member
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If SWR have furloughed any of their staff and these can be redeployed to where the volunteers will be allocated, then I do not agree with SWR's actions.
Tetchytyke
Veteran Member
It's this attitude that makes me despair.
Commercial profit-making company needs some extra staff. It can pay for these staff but, no, we should "do our bit" and work for free. And those who are seeing large chunks of their job being done for free shouldn't worry about their job security, the DfT have made a vague promise.
Perhaps I'm being overly cynical and these volunteers will only be here for a few weeks, like the Olympics Games Makers were (and the fact those volunteers were there for a specific event and were time-limited is the difference with union reactions). But I really do suspect that it's the thin end of the wedge.
As I said upstream, I work for a charity which relies on volunteers who are, to a person, excellent. We rely on volunteers to this extent because "austerity" cut our funding in half and saw half our workforce get made redundant; now our successful use of volunteers is used to justify not increasing our funding.
@Bald Rick talks about volunteer bus drivers. Large parts of the rural Britain don't have proper bus services because councils have been able to palm provision off on community organisations. Where my daughter lives, the only bus is a community DRT service (Northern Fells), originally set up to help mobility for older people and disabled people. The council now won't fund a proper bus because that group exists.
But all this misses the point- FirstGroup is not a charity.
It's happened at the school (an academy, obviously) my mother works at in Bradford, so I obviously can't go into specifics, but it is happening. It's only a 90% classroom assistant in fairness, just enough removed to avoid the rules you describe. As I can't go into specifics I decided not to open a new thread, hope that's ok.
That's a tough question. I'm not sure.
Many community rail partnerships grew out of pressure groups fighting to save their railway from closure, such as the Friends of the Settle-Carlisle. So it feels different because of that history. But there is the argument that, actually, the TOCs should be doing that work and are profiting from getting someone to do it for free.
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I think this has little to do with First Group which is surviving on Government handouts
It's a Dft decision which any other TOC would have to implement if instructed to do so.
The RMT are not in the real world - my opinion.
Thousands if not millions of people have no jobs to return to after lockdown - doesn't apply to railways so should be grateful in the current climate
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Tetchytyke
Veteran Member
You've still not answered my question: if the job needs doing, why should it not be paid?
I think the RMT are as cynical as I am, seeing this as yet another attempt to undermine pay, job security and conditions for station staff and create more casualisation.
Maybe I am being too cynical, but if I was a CSA working in a station I'd be nervous. Most TOCs are reducing station headcounts. Remember the RMT will take on issues their members raise, so clearly SWR staff are worried. I don't blame them. Why would SWR pay when they can get someone to do it for free?
The fact the DfT are behind it isn't really going to change that view, especially as the long-running DOO dispute was DfT-mandated.
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Genuine question - what would your view be if/when Northern or LNER propose the same?
The Territorial Army has not existed for many years, it's the Army Reserve and they are PAID and go on operational tours for 6mths at a time at the same standards as the regulars before they are able to deploy. The comparison isn't remotely accurate
Tetchytyke
Veteran Member
The same. Both are profit-making companies (regardless of ownership) and would, I suspect, be doing it for the same reason. Given LNER have been reducing station headcounts for a long time now, carrying on VTEC's work, I think I would be right to be cynical.
The government isn't a charity either.
Llanigraham
On Moderation
I can think of numerous occasions where "spare" staff have undertaken other roles, with their Unions blessing.
Seems to me TOC (effectively DfT) suggests something sensible. RMT issues routine inflammatory press release. Not much happens. Not just the new normal but the old one.
RMT statement is really derogatory to folk who are volunteering to help their country in a crisis. And before you start, I have been a member of a TUC affiliated TU since 1977, though thankfully not Brother Cash and his Headcases.
As an example the reduction of staff at Wabtec gets the following response:-
Are they in a cocoon. The situation is dire in many areas not just the railways. They are not in the real world if they think that the Transport Sectors should not be affected and be exempt from any changes.
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jettofab
Member
No, they don't think the transport sector should be unaffected. Which is why the unions agreed to suspend normal notice periods for the imposition of new links, and have agreed changes to other rostering agreements while the situation remains so out of the ordinary. But if the transport sector should be affected, shouldn't everyone within it? Shouldn't the DfT and the top brass at TOCs be leading by example and taking pay cuts or forgoing their salaries altogether before the lower paid end of the railway spectrum see their jobs done by volunteers and worry about their futures?
Islineclear3_1
Established Member
There is nothing wrong with volunteers per se IHMO
In my industry, we have volunteers as greeters and signposters. Nothing different to a volunteer signposting passengers to the ticket office or relevant platform. It's not like these volunteers are going to be dispatching or driving trains. Perhaps SVR have a staff shortage with shielding etc?
During the Covid pandemic, many of my colleagues at other hospitals have been redeployed elsewhere. I would have been happy to go to the Nightingale Unit or another hospital but my manager didn't want this.
What is wrong with "surplus" SVR staff undertaking other roles provided that they have the necessary skills and/or training? I too have done very menial jobs in my lifetime; the more willing and flexible you are, the more indispensible you become.
In my industry, we have volunteers as greeters and signposters. Nothing different to a volunteer signposting passengers to the ticket office or relevant platform. It's not like these volunteers are going to be dispatching or driving trains. Perhaps SVR have a staff shortage with shielding etc?
During the Covid pandemic, many of my colleagues at other hospitals have been redeployed elsewhere. I would have been happy to go to the Nightingale Unit or another hospital but my manager didn't want this.
What is wrong with "surplus" SVR staff undertaking other roles provided that they have the necessary skills and/or training? I too have done very menial jobs in my lifetime; the more willing and flexible you are, the more indispensible you become.
Tetchytyke
Veteran Member
Indeed. Apart from in strike-breaking situations (obviously enough) the unions and their members are glad to see management on the shop floor mucking in. It happens for all big events, without question or comment.
This is precisely the point for me. Maybe they're being too cynical, and maybe I'm being too cynical too. But if I was in a low grade customer service role, I'd be very very worried about seeing people being brought in to do my job for free.
Other big events don't see unpaid volunteers being brought in, except notably the Olympics, and even then most Games Makers were not marshalling people in stations. You normally see back office staff come out. And that's not thecsame- they may be volunteering, but they are paid volunteers.
No, but that's not the point, because CSAs don't do that either. I posted a link to the (vague) job description, and it goes way beyond wearing a big foam hand and telling people which queue is for Woking trains.
Silverlinky
Member
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Has any TOC furloughed any staff during the pandemic?
I understood the Government/DFT were covering all the revenue shortfalls until September? Effectively the DFT have taken control of all the TOC's....which then leads me to ask if the DFT are controlling the companies, are they within their rights to "impose" these unpaid volunteers for the period of their tenure. And why are the RMT saying they should be paid....why would SWR have to pay for them?
Certainly nothing other than normal expenditure is being allowed during the present months, anything else is having to be "okayed" by the DFT.
Tetchytyke
Veteran Member
Nobody in favour of volunteers seems to be able to answer this simple question: if the job needs doing, why shouldn't people be paid to do it?
"It costs money" is not an answer.
They're not TOC staff due to outsourcing, but SSP furloughed all their RailGourmet staff. I'm not sure if any TOCs furloughed their in-house catering staff, but an industry-wide agreement was reached so I'm guessing some did, or were at least planning to.
SSP staff working in station catering outlets didn't even get the protection of furlough, they were laid off.
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theironroad
Established Member
Don't think a TOC per se has furloughed anyone, however TfL in London have.
Eurostar have, though still run a few trains, but grand Central and hull trains aren't running any trains and have furloughed staff, but are open access operators rather than franchised tocs.
theironroad
Established Member
I don't know why the rmt press release calls then 'guardian angels' as the dft term that's been used is 'journey makers' . As someone said guardian angels patrolled the tube briefly many years ago and weren't universally popular.
At waterloo yesterday , there are more permanent station/gate line staff, agency staff and I think they were volunteers than there were passengers.
Unfortunately, some of the staff actually hinder free movement across the concourse and seem to be stationed all over the place and a few have a has habit of forgetting what social distancing actually is.
On swr at least, the elior staff (trolley staff) were furloughed from the start.
At waterloo yesterday , there are more permanent station/gate line staff, agency staff and I think they were volunteers than there were passengers.
Unfortunately, some of the staff actually hinder free movement across the concourse and seem to be stationed all over the place and a few have a has habit of forgetting what social distancing actually is.
On swr at least, the elior staff (trolley staff) were furloughed from the start.
Silverlinky
Member
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Ok so looking at the past few points it sort of confirms my thinking, that no UK TOC has furloughed any of its staff. The likes of GC and Eurostar are outside of the normal arrangements and are presumably not receiving the support from the DFT either.
@Tetchytyke .... who has decided that the "job needs doing"? Is it SWR or is it the DFT? I'm unclear on this. Its about more than the fact they are unpaid....no contracts of employment? No union support? No pensions?
Also....if they are "unpaid volunteers".....how are they being "funded" by the DFT? As per my previous post, SWR would not be allowed to recruit 185 staff on contracts and onto the payroll of the company under the present agreements that the DFT have with Operating Companies.
@Tetchytyke .... who has decided that the "job needs doing"? Is it SWR or is it the DFT? I'm unclear on this. Its about more than the fact they are unpaid....no contracts of employment? No union support? No pensions?
Also....if they are "unpaid volunteers".....how are they being "funded" by the DFT? As per my previous post, SWR would not be allowed to recruit 185 staff on contracts and onto the payroll of the company under the present agreements that the DFT have with Operating Companies.
But you can ask that question for any volunteer, anywhere. As I have asked before, and not had an answer, What makes the rail industry any different to all the other companies, government bodies, and charities that use volunteers? Those are all jobs worth doing.
I will however answer your question:
Because it’s a short term, temporary, new (and different) role, where people will be willing to fill the role without pay. So if you can find people willing and happy to do it without pay - why pay? Believe it or not, some people would rather *not* be paid for volunteering. I wouldn’t dream of wanting to be paid for the volunteering I do (and I do the work that could be done by someone who is paid).
theironroad
Established Member
Dft awarded a contract to Volunteering Matters to recruit the volunteers and is across England tocs at least, not sure about Scot/Wales.
Presumably each TOC has a conversation with VM about how many and where and for what they want/need volunteers. Not sure if a TOC could say No as it's a dft programme and dft are running (and funding) the show right now.
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