Trivia: Minimalist Bus Stations

TheGrandWazoo · 13 Jun 2019

radamfi said:
An extract from "Transport for Suburbia: Beyond the Automobile Age" by Paul Mees (p170):

"The focus on through routes and lines can be extended to city centres which are often dominated by large on- or off-street terminals for bus lines. As well as wasting valuable land, these terminals prevent bus routes serving people who wish to travel from one part of the city centre to another. It is often better to link surface routes across the city centre, combining the functions of radial access and central distribution on a single line. This again allows increased efficiency and higher occupancy levels, avoiding the expense of dedicated 'city shuttle' type services. Good examples are provided by trams in Zurich, Toronto and Melbourne, and buses in Curitiba and Schaffhausen."

And what?

An opinion from a man who never actually worked for a transport organisation.

I’d be much happier stood outside Middlesbrough station waiting for a bus having walked with my shopping than waiting in the bus station.

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radamfi · 13 Jun 2019

TheGrandWazoo said:
An opinion from a man who never actually worked for a transport organisation.

Someone who studied transport systems in great detail across the world for much of his life and thus could see what works. Rather that than someone who works for a transport organisation that doesn't perform very well in terms of modal share.

Tetchytyke · 13 Jun 2019

TheGrandWazoo said:
I’d be much happier stood outside Middlesbrough station waiting for a bus having walked with my shopping than waiting in the bus station.

Assume you meant that the other way around

There's no right answer. Sunderland has a big combined bus and Metro station and Stagecoach refuse to serve it. The official reason is it isn't useful for their cross-city services (and I do see their point for the Sunderland city services) but the real reason is they don't want to pay the stand fees; they even pulled the Economic buses from Park Lane.

And that's why bus stations seem to be disappearing. Operators like Stagecoach don't want to pay for the facilities, so they stop for free on the street outside.

Dai Corner · 13 Jun 2019

radamfi said:
Someone who studied transport systems in great detail across the world for much of his life and thus could see what works. Rather that than someone who works for a transport organisation that doesn't perform very well in terms of modal share.

Did he have anything to say about locations with little more than a sign with a route number on but were called bus stations? That's the subject of this thread.

TheGrandWazoo · 13 Jun 2019

radamfi said:
Someone who studied transport systems in great detail across the world for much of his life and thus could see what works. Rather that than someone who works for a transport organisation that doesn't perform very well in terms of modal share.

Academic, in every sense.

Megafuss · 13 Jun 2019

Arctic Troll said:
Assume you meant that the other way around

There's no right answer. Sunderland has a big combined bus and Metro station and Stagecoach refuse to serve it. The official reason is it isn't useful for their cross-city services (and I do see their point for the Sunderland city services) but the real reason is they don't want to pay the stand fees; they even pulled the Economic buses from Park Lane.

And that's why bus stations seem to be disappearing. Operators like Stagecoach don't want to pay for the facilities, so they stop for free on the street outside.

Park Lane is "out the way" compared to the old Central Bus Station. It cost Stagecoach buses just to serve the extra bit on the current frequency.

radamfi · 13 Jun 2019

TheGrandWazoo said:
Academic, in every sense.

Have you read the book? Do you even have it in your organisation? I admit I was surprised to find it in the library of my current employer, a large multidisciplinary consultancy. Colleagues who have read it on my recommendation found it a revelation.

TheGrandWazoo · 14 Jun 2019

Organisation? Who do you think I work for.... Spectre? :lol:

I haven't read the book but I'd be happy to; I'm sure that the CILT library in Corby will have a copy. My views come from >20 years in the transport and logistics industry and I'm happy to read challenging views. I recall you actively avoid reading views from business etc so in your case, what you read will (by definition) be confirmatory rather than revolutionary. My point is that an academic exercise is just that unless it is tempered by real life considerations and actual experience (not standing from the sidelines), otherwise things become dogma. As a transport graduate myself, I can tell you that theory is different from reality.

Right, back onto topic. I believe that bus stations should be appropriate to the needs of the passenger. Does Cinderford need anything other than a small layover area where two/three vehicles can sit plus a couple of shelters? Of course not. Interestingly, the most outlandish over-specified facilities tend to be in PTE areas. Places like Ossett and Dinnington don't need the grandiose structures and, to be honest, the new Wigan bus station is like something that Ceaucescu would've built! At the same time, you have places that would benefit from a central location at least for out of town services.

One loss was Salisbury where Go Ahead could cash in on the site. Note that local city services didn't use the site. Now we have a raft of bus stops littered across the city centre - not so bad when your bus is every 15/20 mins but less so when it's less frequent in terms of hanging around.

Where the bus station can be sensibly co-located with trains (e.g. Bath, Hull), then it should be but as always, it is horses for courses. The loss of the Cardiff bus station is a massive step backwards. However, if someone said that Middlesbrough bus station should be razed to the ground in favour of a selection of bus stops littered around the town centre and a layover area around the back of the station, I can't see how that isn't a retrograde step.

Bletchleyite · 14 Jun 2019

TheGrandWazoo said:
Right, back onto topic. I believe that bus stations should be appropriate to the needs of the passenger. Does Cinderford need anything other than a small layover area where two/three vehicles can sit plus a couple of shelters? Of course not. Interestingly, the most outlandish over-specified facilities tend to be in PTE areas. Places like Ossett and Dinnington don't need the grandiose structures and, to be honest, the new Wigan bus station is like something that Ceaucescu would've built!

A cynic might suggest that with the PTE area projects being under political control there is an element of "build something nice for the poor people so they'll still vote for us". Which I suppose does have something in common with Communist states, if you replaced "so they'll still vote for us" with "so they won't revolt".

TheGrandWazoo · 14 Jun 2019

Bletchleyite said:
A cynic might suggest that with the PTE area projects being under political control there is an element of "build something nice for the poor people so they'll still vote for us". Which I suppose does have something in common with Communist states, if you replaced "so they'll still vote for us" with "so they won't revolt".

There's definitely a political angle on some of them - if only so some councillor can be pictured unveiling a plaque!

peterblue · 14 Jun 2019

I think Bus Stations are definitely needed especially for larger areas.

Go to somewhere like Nottingham and there's a confusing mixture of bus stops scattered randomly across the city, and at least a 15 minute walk if you want to transfer from one side of the city to the other by foot to catch a connecting bus service.

On the other hand, a small town does not need a huge indoors all-singing-all-dancing facility especially not if only a handful of buses actually serve the place.

Bletchleyite · 14 Jun 2019

peterblue said:
I think Bus Stations are definitely needed especially for larger areas.

I think it depends on the layout of the town. A town with a smallish, clustered centre will benefit from one. If it's large but surrounded by a ring road, coming in, looping the ring road and heading back out will probably make sense, having the advantage of same-stop interchange to all routes. If it's like MK and long and thin, a cross-city operation will probably work best. There really isn't one solution that works everywhere.

I think there are small towns that would benefit from one, though, particularly tourist areas. I reckon if they had a proper one in Ambleside with a member of staff there at least during the day (the buses mostly stop by a small car park which could be razed for that purpose) they might find greater usage by tourists than you having to go looking for it. A reasonably nice bus station is a good advertisement for the service in a place like that.

https://www.google.com/maps/@54.429...4!1sSe3ZHkPpbrq3ENnN4golrg!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

- perfectly proportioned site for a small bus station with say 4 nose-in bays, a small enquiry office etc. Might even be possible to keep half the car park.

Dai Corner · 14 Jun 2019

Bletchleyite said:
I think there are small towns that would benefit from one, though, particularly tourist areas. I reckon if they had a proper one in Ambleside with a member of staff there at least during the day (the buses mostly stop by a small car park which could be razed for that purpose) they might find greater usage by tourists than you having to go looking for it.

A good example I came across fairly recently was Yarmouth, Isle of Wight. Arriving on the ferry as a foot passenger I found a manned kiosk where I could get timetables, advice and my ticket. This saved delays to the bus while the driver answered tourists' questions.

TheGrandWazoo · 14 Jun 2019

peterblue said:
I think Bus Stations are definitely needed especially for larger areas.

Go to somewhere like Nottingham and there's a confusing mixture of bus stops scattered randomly across the city, and at least a 15 minute walk if you want to transfer from one side of the city to the other by foot to catch a connecting bus service.

On the other hand, a small town does not need a huge indoors all-singing-all-dancing facility especially not if only a handful of buses actually serve the place.

Exactly!

Something like Bath is a great example of what it should be like. As well as it being adjacent to the rail station, more importantly it's next to the main traffic objective of the Southgate development. The majority of local services don't call into the bus station (some do) but serve roadside stops immediately outside. Passengers for country services get the ability to wait for their half hourly (or worse) service in a modern, dry facility.

Should Keynsham have a bus station of similar ilk? Of course not, given the size of the town and the nature of the road network etc.

Should Trowbridge? It would possibly help given that services are spread across the town centre in a number of locations but shouldn't be some major facility but more....minimalist! Should it be at the train station? Probably not given that it is in a peripheral location.

Horses for courses.

Bletchleyite · 14 Jun 2019

TheGrandWazoo said:
Something like Bath is a great example of what it should be like. As well as it being adjacent to the rail station, more importantly it's next to the main traffic objective of the Southgate development. The majority of local services don't call into the bus station (some do) but serve roadside stops immediately outside. Passengers for country services get the ability to wait for their half hourly (or worse) service in a modern, dry facility.

It does of course help when the railway station is right next to the main destination and the centre is quite compact, as is the case for Bath. If you put a main bus station at the railway station in MK and didn't run cross-city, usage would plummet, as nobody wants to spend 20 minutes walking up the hill.

What doesn't help is stupidity like Preston, where you build it at the opposite end of the main shopping street but just as far away from anywhere people want to go, and then you go and get it listed so you can't get rid of it! The proposal to build a new one by the railway station and use it for another purpose was by far more sensible than what happened.

(OK, the railway station *does* sort of have a bus station, or at least something looking like a 1980s PTE one with glass tunnels on the "platforms" - but it isn't operated like one, it's just a posh set of bus stops).

TheGrandWazoo · 14 Jun 2019

Bletchleyite said:
It does of course help when the railway station is right next to the main destination and the centre is quite compact, as is the case for Bath. If you put a main bus station at the railway station in MK and didn't run cross-city, usage would plummet, as nobody wants to spend 20 minutes walking up the hill.

What doesn't help is stupidity like Preston, where you build it at the opposite end of the main shopping street but just as far away from anywhere people want to go, and then you go and get it listed so you can't get rid of it! The proposal to build a new one by the railway station and use it for another purpose was by far more sensible than what happened.

(OK, the railway station *does* sort of have a bus station, or at least something looking like a 1980s PTE one with glass tunnels on the "platforms" - but it isn't operated like one, it's just a posh set of bus stops).

Preston is the polar opposite of minimalist. On an architectural level, I can understand why it's been listed. Not being alive in 1960s Preston, can't say why the location was chosen and how it related to the main town thoroughfares!

NorthernSpirit · 14 Jun 2019

Something came to me the other day - Shipley doesn't even have a bus station as such, its bus station (marked as Market Place on timetables) are a set of stops that are located on a single bus only street that faces the eyesore market hall. I can't imagine seeing a proper bus station ever being built as they'd be nowhere to put it. So could the stops in Shipley be regarded as a minimalist bus station?

TheGrandWazoo said:
Should Trowbridge? It would possibly help given that services are spread across the town centre in a number of locations but shouldn't be some major facility but more....minimalist!

Manvers House could be torn down to create a minimalist bus station for Trowbridge. It wouldn't need to be fancy, something similar to / based on the bus stations at Todmorden (which could also be regarded as minimalist considering that its effectively a gloryfied bus shelter) or Otley and desiged as a Drive In, Reverse Out site.

Busaholic · 14 Jun 2019

TheGrandWazoo said:
Preston is the polar opposite of minimalist. On an architectural level, I can understand why it's been listed. Not being alive in 1960s Preston, can't say why the location was chosen and how it related to the main town thoroughfares!

My first visit to Preston was in 1969, just prior to the bus station opening. My girlfriend, now wife of getting on for fifty years, comes from Preston and her father worked for Ribble, and before that Scout Motor Services of Preston. Ribble, Preston Corporation and Fishwick's of Leyland had their town centre termini in that part of Preston, as had Scout, so it WAS built in the right part of town. The main bugbear was always the access subways and anti-social behaviour, exacerbated by the multi-storey parking. The architecture is like Marmite: as a teenage Londoner I loved the Elephant & Castle shopping centre, the UK's first purpose built, and the Barbican, while others consider them to be monstrosities.

NBC Soap Oper · 18 Jun 2020

I can think of too many like say Ashbourne that has like 2 stands ... many on the edge of Big City's equate to this i think

NBC Soap Oper · 18 Jun 2020

Megafuss said:
Parkhouse Bus Station in Hatfield which is minimalist in another way....Nothing serves it.

Yeah i went there many moons back - it is similar to it's Nr Neighbour New Mills I (seem to recall)

SteveM70 · 18 Jun 2020

The first page of this thread reads like a bus version of the Four Yorkshiremen sketch.

“A flagpole?!? Luxury!!”

NBC Soap Oper · 18 Jun 2020

SteveM70 said:
The first page of this thread reads like a bus version of the Four Yorkshiremen sketch.

“A flagpole?!? Luxury!!”

Why? lol

NBC Soap Oper · 18 Jun 2020

TheGrandWazoo said:
And what?

An opinion from a man who never actually worked for a transport organisation.

I’d be much happier stood outside Middlesbrough station waiting for a bus having walked with my shopping than waiting in the bus station.

I have never been at un-socialable hours - my last 2 visits 23 years a-part respectivley in 2017 and 1994, but it is a nice station I think (and a tad classy upstairs in the oddly named Coach Departures Lounge)!!

TheGrandWazoo · 18 Jun 2020

NBC Soap Oper said:
I have never been at un-socialable hours - my last 2 visits 23 years a-part respectivley in 2017 and 1994, but it is a nice station I think (and a tad classy upstairs in the oddly named Coach Departures Lounge)!!

Middlesbrough was ahead of its time and even now, it's still very effective....which is why the council want to demolish it and move it across town. I know what you mean about the coach lounge... a rarified atmosphere above the plebs below.

One curious place is Hartlepool Interchange aka a couple of bus shelters served by about two dozen vehicles a day. Lord knows how much that cost.

NBC Soap Oper · 18 Jun 2020

TheGrandWazoo said:
Middlesbrough was ahead of its time and even now, it's still very effective....which is why the council want to demolish it and move it across town. I know what you mean about the coach lounge... a rarified atmosphere above the plebs below.

One curious place is Hartlepool Interchange aka a couple of bus shelters served by about two dozen vehicles a day. Lord knows how much that cost.

Oh no - I hope they don't demolish it or get the Go-ahead, like Preston it is a-head of it's time

It is a major improvement on it's Nr(ish Neighbour Sunderland) that I had the pleasure of passing through last year for the first time ever). as good as it was - it zpapeared half-baked and though I'd put both places on a par in size, though Sunderland is a City they're bus Stn/Interchange (which grinds on me as back in the 90s Interchanges only applied as a Bus Stn and Train Stn combi job) though mind of course I'm unsure if the Metro goes into Sunderland Bus Stn/Interchange, Sunderland was still a mega dissapoitment to me and looked as if it was done well cheaply

Compare it even to Derby (Sunderland) which I'd put on a par Size-wise in City Centre Terms and I know which i'd pick every day 10 out of 10 times

James101 · 19 Jun 2020

TheGrandWazoo said:
Middlesbrough was ahead of its time and even now, it's still very effective....which is why the council want to demolish it and move it across town. I know what you mean about the coach lounge... a rarified atmosphere above the plebs below.

One curious place is Hartlepool Interchange aka a couple of bus shelters served by about two dozen vehicles a day. Lord knows how much that cost.

Hartlepool interchange is now buzzing with a single hourly service (Arriva 57/A) for it’s four stands. Ditto for Seaton Carew which might be the most OTT station for facilities to service ratio?

lxfe_mxtterz · 19 Jun 2020

If I recall correctly, Bangor Bus Station is just a line of six basic bus shelters.

cnjb8 · 19 Jun 2020

NBC Soap Oper said:
I can think of too many like say Ashbourne that has like 2 stands ... many on the edge of Big City's equate to this i think

Considering its one of a few towns not served by the Big 4 companies, demand is not there!

TheGrandWazoo · 19 Jun 2020

NBC Soap Oper said:
Oh no - I hope they don't demolish it or get the Go-ahead, like Preston it is a-head of it's time

It is a major improvement on it's Nr(ish Neighbour Sunderland) that I had the pleasure of passing through last year for the first time ever). as good as it was - it zpapeared half-baked and though I'd put both places on a par in size, though Sunderland is a City they're bus Stn/Interchange (which grinds on me as back in the 90s Interchanges only applied as a Bus Stn and Train Stn combi job) though mind of course I'm unsure if the Metro goes into Sunderland Bus Stn/Interchange, Sunderland was still a mega dissapoitment to me and looked as if it was done well cheaply

Compare it even to Derby (Sunderland) which I'd put on a par Size-wise in City Centre Terms and I know which i'd pick every day 10 out of 10 times

Sunderland Interchange is on the site of the old Park Lane bus station and adjacent depot. It is served by the Metro and the interchange was part of the extension of the Metro to Sunderland and South Hylton. It also replaced the central bus station on Crowtree Road and both the old bus stations were pretty grim.

I have always thought it to be a missed opportunity though; the location is away from the main shopping centre and the design is poor. The peripheral location is one reason, along with departure charges, why Stagecoach no longer use it.

Andyh82 · 19 Jun 2020

lxfe_mxtterz said:
If I recall correctly, Bangor Bus Station is just a line of six basic bus shelters.

Do they now refer to it as a bus station, in timetables it was always just Bangor "Cloc" wasn't it?

Trivia: Minimalist Bus Stations

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