Questions for current drivers.

KJ83 · 20 Jun 2020

Just a couple of things ive always wondered and hoped someone could answer.

How do you know when a station is coming up? is it literally just route knowledge or is there something in the cab that tells you how far you are to the next station? especially in bad weather.

As drivers, where do you start the day? at a depot or at the station?

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43066 · 20 Jun 2020

KJ83 said:
How do you know when a station is coming up? is it literally just route knowledge or is there something in the cab that tells you how far you are to the next station? especially in bad weather.

Literally just route knowledge. There’s nothing in the cab to tell you. Braking points vary according to weather conditions/leaf fall.

A far bigger issue is making sure you stop where you’re diagrammed to. “Failures to call” are by no means unknown and a surprisingly easy trap to fall into. Especially on routes where you don’t stop much, and the stopping patterns vary.

KJ83 said:
As drivers, where do you start the day? at a depot or at the station?

You book on at a depot, which is where your day starts and finishes. The vast majority of depots are located at, or very near, stations.

Jon1930 · 20 Jun 2020

Route knowledge, after driving over the same route it sinks in. I remember when I first started my DI would say 3 bridge after the neutral section put the brake in, magent for the signal put brake in, brake at the big bridge. I thought how am I going to remember all this and this was just the first route, I had more to learn but then slowly each trip you'll remember some. The you'll remember more.

Jon1930 · 20 Jun 2020

Route knowledge is the key.

TTDARL · 20 Jun 2020

At some TOCS you can PASS (passenger) / travel direct to your first train working without the need to go to your home depot. You can sign on / book on remotely in order to do this with management agreement. Some driver jobs start and finish at different locations to their Home Depot. Usually drivers with TOC electronic equipment (IPADS) can view the same information that would be viewed at the booking on point if booking on at their home depot. Driver Diagrams / schedule cards can be printed for you the day before or faxed / printed to your start location.

TheVicLine · 20 Jun 2020

Start the day in the depot, route knowledge tells you where stations, junctions are, etc.

Red Devil · 20 Jun 2020

95% of this job is route knowledge the other 5% is common sense.
As others have said route knowledge is the key.

KJ83 · 21 Jun 2020

thanks for the quick replies

craigybagel · 21 Jun 2020

Be careful not to get confused between Maintenance depots and traincrew depots. Maintenance Depots are where trains are maintained, traincrew depots are where traincrew are based and normally start and finish their day. Traincrew depots can be located on maintenance Depots but most of the time they're located on or near major stations.

dctraindriver · 21 Jun 2020

Route knowledge comes with time. After a while in fog you can tell where you are by the seat of your pants.

KJ83 · 21 Jun 2020

dctraindriver said:
Route knowledge comes with time. After a while in fog you can tell where you are by the seat of your pants.

This literally would be my biggest concern

i guess its like driving your car, on certain drives that you do a lot you know it like the back of ur hand

Stigy · 22 Jun 2020

I started handling at the end of last year and I thought up until, and during a lot of that time, how on earth am I going to remember all this? It’s not just stations, but speed restrictions, signal locations, names of lines and where they change, crossing names and locations etc etc. It’s about knowing where to start braking as well as knowing where these things are, too.

I’d say it was probably 50 or 60 hours before it really started sinking in. From then onwards, it really started to go in, and I’m now satisfied I can drive most of my routes without instruction. It’s helped a lot that my DI would hammer crossing names in to me and ways in which to remember them.

I started handling at the best time as far as I’m concerned, as we had the adhesion to think about and adverse weather, plus the shorter days helped for darkness hours. What also surprised me was how stations and signals seem closer than they are at night, especially on a long straight but of track.

I’ve not driven since lockdown, and it’s all been delayed, so I hope I’ve retained the majority of the knowledge I’ve gained so far!

SlimJim1694 · 22 Jun 2020

You'll find that what you've learned will come back pretty quick. I think most drivers will agree that even though you sign a route you don't actually KNOW it until you've been driving it a few years. If you can keep time in thick fog then you know you know it... having said that, never try to keep time in thick fog- don't think about the time, just drive it safely - you wont get any thanks for keeping time and if you do screen up they'll tell you you should have slowed down!

KJ83 · 22 Jun 2020

Do you get a description of the route when you start, with the names of these junctions crossings etc or is it just your DI that tells you this as you go along

43066 · 22 Jun 2020

KJ83 said:
Do you get a description of the route when you start, with the names of these junctions crossings etc or is it just your DI that tells you this as you go along

You’ll most likely be given route maps. You’ll quickly discover the only way to properly learn a route is by driving over it again and again. The maps I was given where I trained were out of date, and inaccurate, so were actually worse than useless!

If you need to constantly refer to maps when you’re driving, you arguably don’t know the route well enough to sign it.*

I’ve quite recently signed my current route. I carry (accurate) maps with me now, but only really use them for unusual shunt moves, and for navigating complex areas such as terminal station approaches. The big risks in these areas are accepting wrong routes, or being put into a platform which is too short to accommodate your train.

*We also have a diversionary route which we have no booked work over, so the maps come out for that entire route if I’m sent over it. And yes, that means I don’t really know it well enough to sign it!

TTDARL · 22 Jun 2020

KJ83 said:
Do you get a description of the route when you start, with the names of these junctions crossings etc or is it just your DI that tells you this as you go along

Depending on the TOC you get detailed paper route maps and / or electronic route maps. Some TOCS also issue IPADS containing all the route maps that you need. Some TOCS give you password protected access to various online route map specialist internet sites. Some TOCS give you a data stick with route maps on to plug into your computer & smart TV ETC. Your DI’(s) will also go through the map with you regularly to talk through various moves, shunts, and other salient route details etcetc.

TheVicLine · 22 Jun 2020

You generally get maps and when you need to sign the route you will be sent out with your maps, for say a week, to learn the route via cab rides. After that you will drive the route and be tested on your route knowledge.

Stigy · 22 Jun 2020

KJ83 said:
Do you get a description of the route when you start, with the names of these junctions crossings etc or is it just your DI that tells you this as you go along

We have it all electronically on our tablets, but I printed all the route maps relevant to me off in A5 and laminated them. I like to have a hard copy of them for accessibility etc. A5 is only just big enough in terms of print, but it beats carrying an A4 folder around in my bag. It could be a lot worse, having the tablet is a godsend (especially for training materials during classroom training, although the quality is questionable

), there’s just some things that are nice to have to hand.

43066 · 22 Jun 2020

Stigy said:
We have it all electronically on our tablets, but I printed all the route maps relevant to me off in A5 and laminated them. I like to have a hard copy of them for accessibility etc. A5 is only just big enough in terms of print, but it beats carrying an A4 folder around in my bag. It could be a lot worse, having the tablet is a godsend (especially for training materials during classroom training, although the quality is questionable ), there’s just some things that are nice to have to hand.

Very sensible of you to print it out. I’ve never really understood the point of electronic maps when, by definition, you cannot refer to them in the cab due to the electronic devices policy. Good old railway logic at work, I guess!

Where I am now we’ve been given Track Access Productions A5 booklets. They are very clear indeed and I’ve also annotated mine with platform lengths, high risk signals etc.

Stigy · 22 Jun 2020

43066 said:
Very sensible of you to print it out. I’ve never really understood the point of electronic maps when, by definition, you cannot refer to them in the cab due to the electronic devices policy. Good old railway logic at work, I guess!

Where I am now we’ve been given Track Access Productions A5 booklets. They are very clear indeed and I’ve also annotated mine with platform lengths, high risk signals etc.

We’re allowed to look at the tablet for operational reasons as long as we’re stationary and/or during degraded situations for this sort of thing. I guess it’s down to policy of the specific TOC/FOC though.

craigybagel · 22 Jun 2020

I was given a big folder full of maps of my core route. I also obtained a photocopy of a nearly 40 year old diagram of the largest intermediate station from when it was last resignalled under BR, which was actually more accurate.

choochoochoo · 22 Jun 2020

Stigy said:
We’re allowed to look at the tablet for operational reasons as long as we’re stationary and/or during degraded situations for this sort of thing. I guess it’s down to policy of the specific TOC/FOC though.

I've worked on the assumption you can use electronic devices when the train is stationary (Full Brake/DRA/Neutral) given that I'd be allowed to contact Operations Control/Maintenance/Signaller using my mobile phone in those circumstances. Can't see there being any risk of distraction in those circumstances. - It goes without saying I'd switch it off before I thought about moving again.

Efini92 · 22 Jun 2020

You can also refer to the sectional appendix. It won’t have any signal locations but all the other information is in there including local instructions and known low adhesion areas.

SlimJim1694 · 22 Jun 2020

Some drivers also draw their own maps, althoughI've never bothered myself, instead I just keep a few A4 pages of the most complex areas in case I have to do an unusual move. I keep "fog notes" too which just a list of two or three fixed infrastructure reminders of braking points for each station en route in case visibility is so bad I can't see my normal braking point. I thought it was a good idea when I started but in reality I've never had to use them!

43066 · 22 Jun 2020

Stigy said:
We’re allowed to look at the tablet for operational reasons as long as we’re stationary and/or during degraded situations for this sort of thing. I guess it’s down to policy of the specific TOC/FOC though.

choochoochoo said:
I've worked on the assumption you can use electronic devices when the train is stationary (Full Brake/DRA/Neutral) given that I'd be allowed to contact Operations Control/Maintenance/Signaller using my mobile phone in those circumstances. Can't see there being any risk of distraction in those circumstances. - It goes without saying I'd switch it off before I thought about moving again.

Unless it’s an out of course situation using electronic devices in an active driving cab, even when stationery, is a grey area. The policies haven’t really kept up to date with technology over the last few years.

There’s no substitute for written notes which you can glance at whenever you need to. The time you’ll really need it isn’t out of course working, it’s when the dummy comes off and you think: “can I go in on top of something?”, or you get signalled into an unusual platform and you can’t remember the max length it can accommodate.

choochoochoo · 22 Jun 2020

SlimJim1694 said:
Some drivers also draw their own maps, althoughI've never bothered myself, instead I just keep a few A4 pages of the most complex areas in case I have to do an unusual move. I keep "fog notes" too which just a list of two or three fixed infrastructure reminders of braking points for each station en route in case visibility is so bad I can't see my normal braking point. I thought it was a good idea when I started but in reality I've never had to use them!

For fog I use obvious signals and non-visual cues AWS/Points/Bridge/Tunnel Noises or noticeable changes in direction rather than trackside furniture. These would have to be before my normal braking areas, so I'd use a little less brake at them.

choochoochoo · 22 Jun 2020

43066 said:
Unless it’s an out of course situation using electronic devices in an active driving cab, even when stationery, is a grey area. The policies haven’t really kept up to date with technology over the last few years.

There’s no substitute for written notes which you can glance at whenever you need to. The time you’ll really need it isn’t out of course working, it’s when the dummy comes off and you think: “can I go in on top of something?”, or you get signalled into an unusual platform and you can’t remember the max length it can accommodate.

Fair enough, but I'd rather use electronic devices and not mess up, rather than guess whether I'm allowed to do this and make a mess of things. If it comes to light I viewed a PDF on my phone to do the correct thing, I'll take the slap on the wrist.

And as was drilled into us at training, if really unsure just call the signaller and ask.

43066 · 22 Jun 2020

choochoochoo said:
Fair enough, but I'd rather use electronic devices and not mess up, rather than guess whether I'm allowed to do this and make a mess of things. If it comes to light I viewed a PDF on my phone to do the correct thing, I'll take the slap on the wrist.

And as was drilled into us at training, if really unsure just call the signaller and ask.

Absolutely, never guess, and ALWAYS challenge, if in doubt. Just be *very* careful with your particular TOC’s electronic devices policy.

Even if you’re allowed to use devices, booting up an iPad and faffing around looking for the correct map is a lot more hassle than having written notes.

Mine are literally my Track Access maps with notes like:

“signal XXX, T + main aspect = P1B, 5 car max, caution mid platform signal”.

“P2c, cannot use (2 car max)”

“P7 = 5 car max”.

Anyone else who signs that location will probably immediately recognise it from the above lol. It’s a pig of a station, with lots of traps. The layout hasn’t changed since the age of steam apparently.

ComUtoR · 22 Jun 2020

choochoochoo said:
Fair enough, but I'd rather use electronic devices and not mess up, rather than guess whether I'm allowed to do this and make a mess of things. If it comes to light I viewed a PDF on my phone to do the correct thing, I'll take the slap on the wrist.

There is a very big difference between an error and a violation. TOC policies on electronic devices are pretty clear and so is the rule book. If you choose to ignore those rules and policies it may be much more than a slap on the wrist; especially if you deliberately choose to do so.

I have seen too many Drivers lose their jobs because of a mobile phone being on in the cab. I think most TOCs allow mobile phone use in degraded working. Not sure on Tablet use but I can see how they would be allowed in degraded situations too.

My TOC is VERY specific on device use. I would strongly recommend people follow their TOCs guidelines.

choochoochoo · 22 Jun 2020

I'll be double checking my TOC's policies. I'm sure there is an entry in the rule book but I cannot see anything in TW1 about electronic devices in the cab. Which section of the Rule Book is it in ?

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