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TOPs Classifications

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Crossforth

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One question I have with regards to the new class 331s:

Their coach numbers are in the 463XXX, 464XXX, 465XXX and 466XXX ranges.

Now of those coach numbers, the 466001-031 clash with SouthEasterns 466 units. How has this not been noticed or has a rule change happened where by it doesn't matter?
 
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hexagon789

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Crossforth said:
One question I have with regards to the new class 331s:

Their coach numbers are in the 463XXX, 464XXX, 465XXX and 466XXX ranges.

Now of those coach numbers, the 466001-031 clash with SouthEasterns 466 units. How has this not been noticed or has a rule change happened where by it doesn't matter?
Click to expand...

They don't clash because the 331 vehicle numbers are five digits not six. The TS are 4651x and the DMS 4660x or 4661x.
 
43096

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Crossforth said:
One question I have with regards to the new class 331s:

Their coach numbers are in the 463XXX, 464XXX, 465XXX and 466XXX ranges.

Now of those coach numbers, the 466001-031 clash with SouthEasterns 466 units. How has this not been noticed or has a rule change happened where by it doesn't matter?
Click to expand...
They don’t clash as unit numbers (as opposed to vehicle numbers) are a separate series.

If you think that is rubbish, I agree. The numbering system is an utter shambles and opportunities to sort it out have not been taken.
 
pdeaves

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43096 said:
They don’t clash as unit numbers (as opposed to vehicle numbers) are a separate series.

If you think that is rubbish, I agree. The numbering system is an utter shambles and opportunities to sort it out have not been taken.
Click to expand...
The IET vehicle numbers are VERY similar to full unit numbers. How that doesn't end up confusing people who 'need to know' (depot fitters, for example) I don't know. I'm sure the system could have been arranged to get very different numbers on the same unit.
 
Mikey C

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Domh245 said:
Strictly speaking, numbered as AC/DC units although it's a fair comparison - simpler to go through one registration that'll cover everything than multiple. Easier to piggy back off the 'multi-modal'/dual voltage nature of the first 769s/ 375/6s respectively than having 269s and 475s as well. Logic that promptly trips up as soon as the 376s get involved.
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And inconsistent when comparing the Electrostars and Desiros (and Junipers), with ALL Electrostars given an AC number whereas the Desiros and Junipers are split between AC and DC numbers (e.g. the 350 and 450) depending on how they are operated
 
Domh245

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Mikey C said:
And inconsistent when comparing the Electrostars and Desiros (and Junipers), with ALL Electrostars given an AC number whereas the Desiros and Junipers are split between AC and DC numbers (e.g. the 350 and 450) depending on how they are operated
Click to expand...

The difference however is that the 375s (and by extension 377s) started off with a dual voltage subclass, but there aren't any dual voltage Junipers, and the only dual voltage 'desiro classic' was the 350 - which only came into existence a good few years after the 450s. It's only the 376 is an oddity in that regards (and arguably the 377/1s but given the /2s were ordered around the same time, it's far neater putting them all under the one class!)
 
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norbitonflyer

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hexagon789 said:
They don't clash because the 331 vehicle numbers are five digits not six. The TS are 4651x and the DMS 4660x or 4661x.
Click to expand...

Starting with class 387, individual vehicles in units have had six-digit numbers. In the case of the 331s, these are of the form 46xyyy, where x is 3,4,5,or 6 depending on the vehicle in the unit, and yyy is the last three digits of the individual unit number. So the trailer in 331101 is 465101, which does indeed duplicate a class 465 unit. Likewise the "B" end driving trailer of 331001 is 466001, duplicating a class 466 unit number.

Other duplications:
Class 385 DMS 44yxxx, including duplication of Class 444 units
Class 701/1 48xyyy, including 483xxx and 484xxx, which respectively duplicate the old and new IoW units
Class 720/1 and 720/5 45xyyy, including duplicates of Classes 450/1 and 450/5
Class 745 Various in 3xxxxx and 4xxxxx , including 3130xx and 3320xx

On the IETs, the unit numbers all start 80xxxx (but will shortly extend to 810xxx) and the car numbers are of the form 8yyxxx, where both y digits are both nonzero (the third digit is the position of the car in the unit)
 
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birchesgreen

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Talking of TOPS, i guess the new Merseyrail EMUs should be in the 5xx range really, but being able to call them Class 777 is cooler obviously.
 
hexagon789

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birchesgreen said:
Talking of TOPS, i guess the new Merseyrail EMUs should be in the 5xx range really, but being able to call them Class 777 is cooler obviously.
Click to expand...

5xx is for dc only I believe, the 777s can work off dc AND ac. The latter capability being for potential future extensions/conversions
 
XAM2175

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Although this doesn't help very much with the original question, for the benefit of subsequent discussion the official class allocation definitions currently in use are provided by Rail Industry Standard RIS-2453-RST.

Section A.1 (Table 3) Locomotives and heritage vehicles
(abridged, showing four-digit Class Identifier formatted for display in EVN)
Vehicle Type[EVN Interoperability Indicator][Class Identifier Range]
Diesel shunting locomotives980001 - 0009
Electric shunting locomotives97See A.1.4
Diesel locomotives920010 - 0079
Electric locomotives910080 - 0096
Existing electrodiesel locomotives910073
Heritage locomotives900098
A.1.4 Electric shunting locomotive technical characteristics (class identification) numbers shall be selected from the diesel shunting locomotive or the electric locomotive ranges.

Section A.3.1 (Table 7) Multiple unit / fixed formation sets
Rail Vehicle GroupClass Identifier Range
Diesel mechanical / hydraulic multiple unit sets100 - 199
Diesel electric multiple unit sets200 - 299
Diesel and / or other fuels multiple unit sets600 - 699
DC electric multiple unit sets400 - 599
AC and AC / DC electric multiple unit sets300 - 399
700 - 749
Multi-mode multiple unit sets750 - 799
High-speed multiple unit / fixed formation sets800 - 899
Infrastructure maintenance / non-passenger multiple unit / fixed formation sets900 - 999
(where a high-speed unit is one capable of operating at speeds above 190 km/h (120 mi/h))
(where a multi-mode unit is one with more than one source of traction power, of which at least one is external)

On the topic of overlaps between TOPS vehicle numbers and TOPS unit/set numbers - since the establishment of the National Vehicle Register the legal "identity" of a rail vehicle is its European Vehicle Number and not its TOPS vehicle number (referred to as the "GB Operational Number"), although the EVN may include the TOPS vehicle number. The standard includes tables showing the previous and current number ranges for vehicles within multiple units and fixed-formation sets that go towards making up the EVN, but I haven't transcribed them so you'll have to download the standard from the RSSB website yourself (for free) to see them Anyway when taken in full a vehicle's EVN will be very different to any possible TOPS set number.

Using this as an example:
norbitonflyer said:
So the trailer in 331101 is 465101, which does indeed duplicate a class 465 unit
Click to expand...
The vehicle number is taken from the 0300000 - 0499999 range current for non-high-speed EMU vehicles, and forms part of the full EVN of 94 70 0465 101-6.

Regarding the Class 777, I suspect they got that because the plans for battery power technically made them multi-mode.
 
hexagon789

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XAM2175 said:
Although this doesn't help very much with the original question, for the benefit of subsequent discussion the official class allocation definitions currently in use are provided by Rail Industry Standard RIS-2453-RST.

Section A.1 (Table 3) Locomotives and heritage vehicles
(abridged, showing four-digit Class Identifier formatted for display in EVN)
Vehicle Type[EVN Interoperability Indicator][Class Identifier Range]
Diesel shunting locomotives980001 - 0009
Electric shunting locomotives97See A.1.4
Diesel locomotives920010 - 0079
Electric locomotives910080 - 0096
Existing electrodiesel locomotives910073
Heritage locomotives900098
A.1.4 Electric shunting locomotive technical characteristics (class identification) numbers shall be selected from the diesel shunting locomotive or the electric locomotive ranges.

Section A.3.1 (Table 7) Multiple unit / fixed formation sets
Rail Vehicle GroupClass Identifier Range
Diesel mechanical / hydraulic multiple unit sets100 - 199
Diesel electric multiple unit sets200 - 299
Diesel and / or other fuels multiple unit sets600 - 699
DC electric multiple unit sets400 - 599
AC and AC / DC electric multiple unit sets300 - 399
700 - 749
Multi-mode multiple unit sets750 - 799
High-speed multiple unit / fixed formation sets800 - 899
Infrastructure maintenance / non-passenger multiple unit / fixed formation sets900 - 999
(where a high-speed unit is one capable of operating at speeds above 190 km/h (120 mi/h))
(where a multi-mode unit is one with more than one source of traction power, of which at least one is external)

On the topic of overlaps between TOPS vehicle numbers and TOPS unit/set numbers - since the establishment of the National Vehicle Register the legal "identity" of a rail vehicle is its European Vehicle Number and not its TOPS vehicle number (referred to as the "GB Operational Number"), although the EVN may include the TOPS vehicle number. The standard includes tables showing the previous and current number ranges for vehicles within multiple units and fixed-formation sets that go towards making up the EVN, but I haven't transcribed them so you'll have to download the standard from the RSSB website yourself (for free) to see them Anyway when taken in full a vehicle's EVN will be very different to any possible TOPS set number.

Using this as an example:

The vehicle number is taken from the 0300000 - 0499999 range current for non-high-speed EMU vehicles, and forms part of the full EVN of 94 70 0465 101-6.

Regarding the Class 777, I suspect they got that because the plans for battery power technically made them multi-mode.
Click to expand...

Do even the newest of trains in service carry anything other than a TOPS number?
 
XAM2175

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Yes - per one of the RSSB news pieces:
As of 1 January 2018, an EVN needs to be displayed on any new rail vehicle being authorised to be placed into service. Pre-existing rail vehicles authorised for placing into service before 1 January 2018 won’t need the EVN to be displayed unless they are to be operated outside Britain.
Click to expand...

For example, the Caledonian Sleeper Mk V coaches where the TOPS number is shown as part of the EVN:

 
Romsey

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norbitonflyer said:
Since 73s are (now) unique, there being no other dc-only electric locos, they will be anomalous however you classify them. The only other dc electrodiesels were the 74s. The only other dc-capable electric loco class currently in use are the 92s. The only other electrodiesels are the 88s.

And since many 73s work in Scotland, hundreds of miles from any dc juice rails (except the Glasgow Subway, which is barred from use by 73s for many reasons, not least the 4 foot gauge) - and have had their shoegear removed, I believe - they are to all intents and purposes Type 3 diesels. Indeed, with a power output of 1500hp (Cummins engines) or 1600hp (MTU) they would fit in neatly at vacant classes 32 and 34 respectively!
Click to expand...
But keeping them as class 73's ensures "grandfather rights" on all sorts of details like collision resistance and exhaust content. Apart from that , thee isn't much left of the original locos apart from the bogies and some of the body shell. But who thought a design on a fag packet put together around 1960 at Eastleigh and tidied up later would be working in Scotland in 2020?
 
Ashley Hill

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Art 32, Para 1: Any vehicle placed in service in the Community rail system shall carry a European vehicle number (EVN) assigned when the first authorisation for placing in service is granted.....
Once we finally leave the EU will this continue or be kicked into touch.
 
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at this point you have to wonder with how convoluted TOPS has gotten with weird edge cases and allocations full of now retired classes if it would be better to press the big old reset button on it and while we are at it just move to something build around UIC numbers then just modified to fit it?
 
LOL The Irony

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popeter45 said:
at this point you have to wonder with how convoluted TOPS has gotten with weird edge cases and allocations full of now retired classes if it would be better to press the big old reset button on it and while we are at it just move to something build around UIC numbers then just modified to fit it?
Click to expand...
Typing 5/6 digits is a lot quicker than typing 12. If it ain't broke...
 
XAM2175

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Ashley Hill said:
Once we finally leave the EU will this continue or be kicked into touch.
Click to expand...

We have already left the EU. The EVN requirement exists in UK law as Regulation 36 of The Railways (Interoperability) Regulations 2011 and will remain so until it's amended or revoked.

popeter45 said:
at this point you have to wonder with how convoluted TOPS has gotten with weird edge cases and allocations full of now retired classes if it would be better to press the big old reset button on it and while we are at it just move to something build around UIC numbers then just modified to fit it?
Click to expand...

In reality it's unlikely, given how central TOPS and TOPS-derived systems are to operations. The major limitation is that the EVN schema makes no direct provision for providing a single identity to multiple units and fixed-formation sets, and while such a provision could hypothetically be made at a GB-only level it wouldn't solve the dependency on TOPS compatibility.
 
43096

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XAM2175 said:
In reality it's unlikely, given how central TOPS and TOPS-derived systems are to operations. The major limitation is that the EVN schema makes no direct provision for providing a single identity to multiple units and fixed-formation sets, and while such a provision could hypothetically be made at a GB-only level it wouldn't solve the dependency on TOPS compatibility.
Click to expand...
It's the way the UK has implemented the EVN scheme that is the problem, not the EVN system itself. The UK has just used existing numbers and fitted them within the EVN rather than using it as an opportunity to sort out the mess.

The way that SBB use the system does allow a single EVN to be applied to a set:
Set number 94 85 0500 001-8 (short number 500 001)
Individual vehicles within the set are numbered
94 85 1500 001-6
94 85 7500 001-3
94 85 6500 001-5
94 85 5500 001-7
94 85 4500 001-0
94 85 3500 001-2
94 85 2500 001-4
Not only does that give the set number in each vehicle's number (so you know which set it is from easily), it also gives the position in the set
 
XAM2175

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Excellent point! I've noted the strengths of the SBB system before but forgot to drag it back out of memory :oops:
 
pdeaves

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43096 said:
It's the way the UK has implemented the EVN scheme that is the problem, not the EVN system itself. The UK has just used existing numbers and fitted them within the EVN rather than using it as an opportunity to sort out the mess.

The way that SBB use the system does allow a single EVN to be applied to a set:
Set number 94 85 0500 001-8 (short number 500 001)
Individual vehicles within the set are numbered
94 85 1500 001-6
94 85 7500 001-3
94 85 6500 001-5
94 85 5500 001-7
94 85 4500 001-0
94 85 3500 001-2
94 85 2500 001-4
Not only does that give the set number in each vehicle's number (so you know which set it is from easily), it also gives the position in the set
Click to expand...
That's 'sort of' how the latest UK numberings work. The system will fall down as soon as it applies to 10-car (or more) sets. We would end up with some sort of fudge for Pendolinos and Thameslink units.
 
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pdeaves said:
That's 'sort of' how the latest UK numberings work. The system will fall down as soon as it applies to 10-car (or more) sets. We would end up with some sort of fudge for Pendolinos and Thameslink units.
Click to expand...
just do like what other countries that use that system do and split them into half units numbering wise
e.g. a 12 car class 700
700 000 1
700 000 2
700 000 3
700 000 4
700 000 5
700 000 6
700 001 6
700 001 5
700 001 4
700 001 3
700 001 2
700 001 1

second half here is 700 001 but could be anything like 700 100. 700 500 etc
 
43096

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popeter45 said:
just do like what other countries that use that system do and split them into half units numbering wise
e.g. a 12 car class 700
700 000 1
700 000 2
700 000 3
700 000 4
700 000 5
700 000 6
700 001 6
700 001 5
700 001 4
700 001 3
700 001 2
700 001 1

second half here is 700 001 but could be anything like 700 100. 700 500 etc
Click to expand...
Indeed. SBB’s new 501 units are 11 car, with one end numbered as 501001 upwards, the other end 501201 upwards.
 
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