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Porterbrook Cl.769 'Flex' trains from 319s, initially for Northern

yorkie

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There are some very interesting debates being held on this thread but can I ask that anything not directly related to the topic, Porterbrook Cl.769 'Flex' trains from 319s, initially for Northern, be discussed in a new thread (or an existing one, if appropriate) please? Thanks! :)
 
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Mogster

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Cab air conditioning should be seen as essential these days, as it aids driver vigilance and reduces fatigue.

Commercial vehicle cabs (let alone private cars!) often have it, at little extra cost. Why do our decision makers miss the obvious?

WAO

In my experience hardly any buses have it, even the new ones. Trams don’t have it either.

Ordering new heavy rail stock without HVAC would seem crazy, the 769s aren’t new though. Meanwhile the crew are still driving 150s and the like and the Southport line is short of stock as always.
 

py_megapixel

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This project is becoming an utter farce. It was a bit of a shaky concept to begin with, but it's now taking longer than most new-build projects.
It started all the way back in 2017 and there isn't yet a single unit in service.
By the time they get them running, the oldest 319s will be almost 40 years old.

Why not just order some bi-mode Civities? CAF seems perfectly happy to build for the UK at the moment.
 

Bob Price

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Why not just order some bi-mode Civities? CAF seems perfectly happy to build for the UK at the moment.
CAF have quite a full order book right now. By the time Newport have finished the 197's and the TFW 198's the 769's will be working. Agree though it has been a farce.
 

edwin_m

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This project is becoming an utter farce. It was a bit of a shaky concept to begin with, but it's now taking longer than most new-build projects.
It started all the way back in 2017 and there isn't yet a single unit in service.
By the time they get them running, the oldest 319s will be almost 40 years old.

Why not just order some bi-mode Civities? CAF seems perfectly happy to build for the UK at the moment.
Not sure how easy it would be to produce a bi-mode. The 195/196 have mechanical drive to the motors so you can't just add a pantograph, transformer and cabling to that design. It would probably start with a 331 and look for somewhere to put a genset (starting to sound familiar?). Both 331 end cars and one of the centre ones have lots of electrical equipment and putting a diesel under the remaining car of the 4-car variants wouldn't give enough power to match Sprinter schedules. It might be a case of putting an engine above the floor behind one or both cabs. Starting to look like a major re-design and a lot of new approvals needed.
 

Bletchleyite

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Not sure how easy it would be to produce a bi-mode. The 195/196 have mechanical drive to the motors so you can't just add a pantograph, transformer and cabling to that design. It would probably start with a 331 and look for somewhere to put a genset (starting to sound familiar?). Both 331 end cars and one of the centre ones have lots of electrical equipment and putting a diesel under the remaining car of the 4-car variants wouldn't give enough power to match Sprinter schedules. It might be a case of putting an engine above the floor behind one or both cabs. Starting to look like a major re-design and a lot of new approvals needed.

Or just go to Stadler who already have a product available - low floor too!
 

edwin_m

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Or just go to Stadler who already have a product available - low floor too!
If you can live with the extra length or reduced capacity of the diesel power module - given the discussions elsewhere on Northern platform lengths that might be an issue.
 

Energy

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Not sure how easy it would be to produce a bi-mode. The 195/196 have mechanical drive to the motors so you can't just add a pantograph, transformer and cabling to that design. It would probably start with a 331 and look for somewhere to put a genset (starting to sound familiar?). Both 331 end cars and one of the centre ones have lots of electrical equipment and putting a diesel under the remaining car of the 4-car variants wouldn't give enough power to match Sprinter schedules. It might be a case of putting an engine above the floor behind one or both cabs. Starting to look like a major re-design and a lot of new approvals needed.
CAF offer bimodes on their website so I wouldn't be too concerned but this discussion should be in speculative and I remember this coming up a few times...
 
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Jamesrob637

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If they can work out a way to train the drivers (no pun intended) given the pandemic issues; they would likely already be in service otherwise.

Not that I'll be in a desperate rush to go on one - Heaton Chapel to Levenshulme will be quite sufficient :D I just look forward to more services being guaranteed 4-car rather than the 769s themselves.
 

221101 Voyager

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This project is becoming an utter farce. It was a bit of a shaky concept to begin with, but it's now taking longer than most new-build projects.
It started all the way back in 2017 and there isn't yet a single unit in service.
By the time they get them running, the oldest 319s will be almost 40 years old.

Why not just order some bi-mode Civities? CAF seems perfectly happy to build for the UK at the moment.
I'm personally not a fan of Civities the 195/331 especially as the front already looks dated to me the livery doesn't help though, the 397 is far better looking overall.

I like the TfW 769's, they look very smart and the GWR ones too. I've seen the GWR ones at Wolverton Works, I will look forward to travelling on the TfW and GWR ones hopefully within the next 18 months when Covid has mostly gone.

Best thing about refurbing existing trains and not replacing seats is that the good comfy seats can still be enjoyed!
 

OTRail

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This project is becoming an utter farce. It was a bit of a shaky concept to begin with, but it's now taking longer than most new-build projects.
It started all the way back in 2017 and there isn't yet a single unit in service.
By the time they get them running, the oldest 319s will be almost 40 years old.

I agree, by this point Northern and GWR should just take on the 350/2 battery flex project once they’re released from LNR services - much newer and makes more sense to use trains which at that point will be 12-13 years old...
 

Jamesrob637

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I agree, by this point Northern and GWR should just take on the 350/2 battery flex project once they’re released from LNR services - much newer and makes more sense to use trains which at that point will be 12-13 years old...

People of Southport will think that the future has arrived if one of those turn up!
 

Nym

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This project is becoming an utter farce. It was a bit of a shaky concept to begin with, but it's now taking longer than most new-build projects.
It started all the way back in 2017 and there isn't yet a single unit in service.
By the time they get them running, the oldest 319s will be almost 40 years old.

Why not just order some bi-mode Civities? CAF seems perfectly happy to build for the UK at the moment.
Becoming a farce? It's been one since minute one on the technical side.
 

fgwrich

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Becoming a farce? It's been one since minute one on the technical side.

Indeed, it is also a good advertisement for showing what you should and shouldn't mess with. An EMU is an EMU, a DMU is a DMU. Another reason why this mooted idea of messing with the Turbo's & Networker coaches is a frankly ridiculous.

If Northern's units are now finally expected to start working this December, I wonder how it will be for the equally delayed Great Western units.
 

AMD

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Southport to Alderley Edge resumes in a couple of weeks - but with 769s?
No, It'll probably be December now as the driver training has fallen behind, to the extent that drivers who were trained earlier this year need a refresh because it was so long ago.
 

Red Devil

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No, It'll probably be December now as the driver training has fallen behind, to the extent that drivers who were trained earlier this year need a refresh because it was so long ago.
And training pools have been disbanded and all training now to be done at respective depots,to be passed out by local DTM's. Not sure if any of them sign 769's so could be a longer wait
 

_toommm_

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Power changeover signs have now appeared at Manchester Victoria for the 769s:

(Photo shows a blue sign reminding drivers to changeover to overhead power on Platform 3 at Manchester Victoria, in the direction of Salford)

C8D967C6-1687-4634-AA44-4E2535C83981.jpeg
 

Mathew S

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Power changeover signs have now appeared at Manchester Victoria for the 769s:

(Photo shows a blue sign reminding drivers to changeover to overhead power on Platform 3 at Manchester Victoria, in the direction of Salford)

View attachment 82868
There's also some at Salford Crescent I noticed on Thursday (didn't have chance to get a photo) which indicate a change to diesel is needed for the Atherton line.
 

geoffk

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Signs have also appeared at Manchester Vic at the east ends of platforms 3 to 6, which read "class 769 power changeover diesel Stalybridge Newton Heath". Presumably not for use in the near future as Southport - Alderley Edge will be the first route to get 769s. The above posts suggests they have been there for a month. Odd though that I don't recall seeing similar changeover signs for class 802.
 
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