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Coronavirus precautions: Has the world gone mad?

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MikeWM

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Right that's a very good point - does a lockdown do anything for you in the long run? The advice the government was getting was that a lockdown is a poor strategy because once you release it, infections just rise again so in the long run you've gained nothing. In other words there's no exit strategy.

...

Indeed - so then as you say, even on this approach to lockdown, you're buying time. You then have to balance whether the chances of something good showing up in that time (a vaccine, an effective treatment, etc.) will show up, against the social and economic catastrophe that a lockdown causes.

I'd say which way you take has to be based on the severity of the disease. If this was airborne ebola, or the black death on which antibiotics had stopped working, then a lockdown looks like a very sensible idea. But this was never anything worse in terms of IFR and demographic presentation (mainly old and ill people) than a nasty flu year - so the costs of lockdown were, to me, never going to be worth it.

I'm (pleasantly) confused about Sweden too. I thought the Swedish approach was right, but I'm surprised the result was actually *better* than what we've seen in the UK up to this point.
 
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scarby

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The French government has ruled out another nationwide lockdown, admitting that the consequences of the first have been "disastrous".

"My aim is to prepare France for a possible second wave while preserving our daily life, our economic and social life," Jean Castex, the newly appointed prime minister, said in an interview on RTL television.

"But we're not going to impose a lockdown like the one we did last March, because we've learned... that the economic and human consequences from a total lockdown are disastrous," he said.

Source: https://www.france24.com/en/2020070...gence-france-rules-out-another-total-lockdown
 

LAX54

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Indeed - so then as you say, even on this approach to lockdown, you're buying time. You then have to balance whether the chances of something good showing up in that time (a vaccine, an effective treatment, etc.) will show up, against the social and economic catastrophe that a lockdown causes.

I'd say which way you take has to be based on the severity of the disease. If this was airborne ebola, or the black death on which antibiotics had stopped working, then a lockdown looks like a very sensible idea. But this was never anything worse in terms of IFR and demographic presentation (mainly old and ill people) than a nasty flu year - so the costs of lockdown were, to me, never going to be worth it.

I'm (pleasantly) confused about Sweden too. I thought the Swedish approach was right, but I'm surprised the result was actually *better* than what we've seen in the UK up to this point.

A 'nasty flu year' can take up to 650K lives it is said, we are up to 548K Worldwide currently & in the UK (today) 287K have had the virus out of 70 million people, 44K have died
 

AdamWW

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And I think there are more that agree with that statement than you think ! also is the NHS not overwhelmed EVERY YEAR, I seem to recall the media being full of reports that Hospitals were full to bursting, with Ambulances being 'stacked' outside for hours on end, and patients on trolleys in corridors ? Is that any different to the current issue ?

Well yes. We've had the NHS just coping with flu. There was a fear (and a very real one I think) that despite re-configuring the NHS to cope with a Covid peak (operating theatres turned into intensive care wards etc.) it could have been overwhelmed not to the "waiting in a corridor for hours" point but the "Yes we know you're dying but you'll have to do it at home because we just can't treat you" level.

Going back to the "don't overload the NHS" approach (which I agreed with, even though it cost me my job and I slip into the unsupported self employed category), I wonder if a second wave, if it happens, would be as bad because a lot of the vulnerable (elderly, obese, who knows what) have already died. I don't know the numbers of vulnerable so it's hard to guesstimate.

It feels like after we prevented NHS overload, we lost our way and forgot what it was we were trying to achieve. Meanwhile, the coronaphobes assumed we had switched to a (impossible to achieve) strategy of total virus elimination.

It will be interesting to see how many coronaphobes are miraculously cured by having their furlough removed.

It does look as if there has been mission creep and we've lost our way.

But the problem with lockdown was always how to get out of it without having a second wave that is almost as bad as if you never had the lockdown. I don't think the UK government is trying to get cases down to zero, I think they are trying to walk a very difficult balance between getting the economy going and having cases build up again to a dangerous point.

Both strategies need to prevent exponential growth - I don't think they are as different as they look. The main difference is how long you keep lockdown to drive levels down before 'locking them in' with R~1.
 

Bletchleyite

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Aren't we effectively doing a Sweden now? Life pretty much as normal, but working from home if possible and no large gatherings like football matches and nightclubs?
I suspect that will be enough to keep case numbers very low. Of course it's unfortunate for people who enjoy such activities, but the government has said they will remain shut for the forseeable future.

Nightclubs were dying as a thing anyway - people seem to prefer to go out and socialise in bars than go to "superclubs" like they did in the 90s. So this might mean an end to the trade which was coming anyway.
 

AdamWW

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A 'nasty flu year' can take up to 650K lives it is said, we are up to 548K Worldwide currently & in the UK (today) 287K have had the virus out of 70 million people, 44K have died

Are you comparing worldwide flu deaths with UK Covid deaths?
 

AdamWW

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Aren't we effectively doing a Sweden now? Life pretty much as normal, but working from home if possible and no large gatherings like football matches and nightclubs?
I suspect that will be enough to keep case numbers very low. Of course it's unfortunate for people who enjoy such activities, but the government has said they will remain shut for the forseeable future.

Not in Wales yet, if you keep to the law (I.e. still illegal to visit friends or relatives in their home I believe).

But as I said above, I suspect (and hope) that the current situtation in England will keep case numbers low enough, and we would have been fine just doing that at the start, if we'd done it early enough and done something about people bringing it in from the likes of Italy and France.
 

AdamWW

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Nightclubs were dying as a thing anyway - people seem to prefer to go out and socialise in bars than go to "superclubs" like they did in the 90s. So this might mean an end to the trade which was coming anyway.

Not much consolation perhaps, but I think a lot of permanent changes (job losses included) will be things that were coming anyway, but massively sped up by this.
 

trebor79

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Nightclubs were dying as a thing anyway - people seem to prefer to go out and socialise in bars than go to "superclubs" like they did in the 90s. So this might mean an end to the trade which was coming anyway.
Oh yes, dreadful places. I hated them even as a student.
 

RomeoCharlie71

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Nightclubs were dying as a thing anyway - people seem to prefer to go out and socialise in bars than go to "superclubs" like they did in the 90s. So this might mean an end to the trade which was coming anyway.
One nightclub up here was quite literally a sweat-fest when hundreds, of Uni students flocked to the weekly event they called "skint" - i.e. the drinks were dirt cheap, so certainly not a dying scene here!
 

Bletchleyite

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Not much consolation perhaps, but I think a lot of permanent changes (job losses included) will be things that were coming anyway, but massively sped up by this.

Pretty much every major set of job losses so far appear to be businesses taking advantage of "burying the bad news". Boots are the latest to do this - if you drill into the news article it makes that clear.
 

SJN

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I do think something had to be done in March so the NHS could cope. I think the media went overboard. Scaring parents, demanding to know why schools were still open etc. They saw Italy, Spain & France lockdown and demanded it here too. People read and watch news then get scared and they then want it as well. I suppose it’s difficult to get the balance right.
 

LAX54

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Are you comparing worldwide flu deaths with UK Covid deaths?
There is a connection tho. Coronavirus is in the same set as Influenza, but the 'flu' can and does take more lives, obvioulsly not every year, but even so, we do not go through lockdown, distancing for that virus, which is just as contagious
 

LAX54

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I do think something had to be done in March so the NHS could cope. I think the media went overboard. Scaring parents, demanding to know why schools were still open etc. They saw Italy, Spain & France lockdown and demanded it here too. People read and watch news then get scared and they then want it as well. I suppose it’s difficult to get the balance right.
and as someone said here a while ago France at least are now admitting they got it badly wrong with lockdown
 

scarby

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Aren't we effectively doing a Sweden now? Life pretty much as normal, but working from home if possible and no large gatherings like football matches and nightclubs?
I suspect that will be enough to keep case numbers very low. Of course it's unfortunate for people who enjoy such activities, but the government has said they will remain shut for the forseeable future.

The problem here is that events with mass gatherings are major drivers for wide areas of the leisure and hospitality-driven economy - people attending mass events such as big sports matches, major concerts, trade fairs, shows, etc., which they normally do on a daily basis, obviously generates a substantial amount of income. Many companies are dependent on it, many rely on these wholly or partly for employment, and there is wide ancilliary economic activity around them - travel, hotels, on-site catering, restaurants, merchandise, printing, security, cleaning, supplies, maintenance, etc., etc, which will have disastrous economic effects if suspended for a long time with little or no source of alternative revenue/custom for those involved.
 

AdamWW

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The problem here is that events with mass gatherings are major drivers for wide areas of the leisure and hospitality-driven economy - people attending mass events such as big sports matches, major concerts, trade fairs, shows, etc., which they normally do on a daily basis, obviously generates a substantial amount of income. Many companies are dependent on it, many rely on these wholly or partly for employment, and there is wide ancilliary economic activity around them - travel, hotels, on-site catering, restaurants, merchandise, printing, security, cleaning, supplies, maintenance, etc., etc, which will have disastrous economic effects if suspended for a long time with little or no source of alternative revenue/custom for those involved.

All true, which is why there was no answer that didn't involve a hit to the economy.

Sweden certainly isn't unscathed.
 

al78

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There is a connection tho. Coronavirus is in the same set as Influenza, but the 'flu' can and does take more lives, obvioulsly not every year, but even so, we do not go through lockdown, distancing for that virus, which is just as contagious

The health service is able to deal with the flu thanks partly to flu jabs and if people catch it, they tend to be too ill to go out, plus it has been around long enough that the facilities to deal with it are in place. I'm not sure if there is a period with flu when you have it and can spread it, but still feel healthy. With COVID, the flu-level death toll is on top of all the other things that stress the NHS, so it not guarenteed that the NHS would be able to cope if no mitigation measures were taken. The emergence of a new contageous virus does not make all the other causes of illness and death vanish.

If we want to treat COVID as another virus we have to deal with annually that is going to kill a five figure number of people, we have to increase the capacity of the NHS to cope with that as the normal on top of everything else. That means spending taxpayers money, and probably would require increasing taxes at some point to fund it, which people in the UK are known to dislike. It might come down to a choice of a little lower net wage, or periodic lockdowns and associated economic resessions.
 

Baxenden Bank

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I find that far more frightening than some virus that's going around. Next year when we have mass unemployment and are in the middle of an economic depression we will be asking ourselves "Why on earth did we do this? Was it worth it?"
Mass unemployment and an economic depression are not the things to be specifically worried about. It is the follow-ons from those - suicides, domestic violence, crime such as theft/burglary and riots. Hence the focus on youth unemployment rather than middle-aged unemployment.
 

takno

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The health service is able to deal with the flu thanks partly to flu jabs and if people catch it, they tend to be too ill to go out, plus it has been around long enough that the facilities to deal with it are in place. I'm not sure if there is a period with flu when you have it and can spread it, but still feel healthy. With COVID, the flu-level death toll is on top of all the other things that stress the NHS, so it not guarenteed that the NHS would be able to cope if no mitigation measures were taken. The emergence of a new contageous virus does not make all the other causes of illness and death vanish.

If we want to treat COVID as another virus we have to deal with annually that is going to kill a five figure number of people, we have to increase the capacity of the NHS to cope with that as the normal on top of everything else. That means spending taxpayers money, and probably would require increasing taxes at some point to fund it, which people in the UK are known to dislike. It might come down to a choice of a little lower net wage, or periodic lockdowns and associated economic resessions.
To a certain extent that's true. I think if you presented it as a choice between funding the health service a little better, and regularly crippling the economy though, then the extra money for the NHS would probably turn up.

Probably more importantly, this disease appears to most affect the same people as the flu, so to a large extent you wouldn't see overall deaths go up, more the annual toll being shared between flu and coronavirus. In practice it also seems like while we've hunkered down and hidden from it at this stage, over half of the most vulnerable people have been exposed to it, at a stage where there is little or no developed immunity. It wouldn't be at all unreasonable to expect ongoing annual hospitalisations and deaths to be maybe 10% of what we've seen this year. Overall the effect on the NHS might be as little as a 5% increase in the peak season intensive care needs.
 

Baxenden Bank

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Add to this I see just announced 4000 jobs at Boots in the dustbin ! plua previously announced 200 at Easyjet, 5000 at Upper Crust / SSP Group, 1000 at Pret-a-Manger, 12,000 at B.A, 550 at the Daily Mirror...... and this is only the start !
It makes good copy / tv visuals. I'm old enough to remember the Thatcher meltdown of manufacturing industry. Every Friday night (it seems from memory) there was a section on the TV news listing the big companies who had announced x thousand lay-offs that week - remember back then a far larger proportion of workers were employed in a smaller number of large multi-nationals than in todays scattered 'gig' economy.
 

birchesgreen

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It makes good copy / tv visuals. I'm old enough to remember the Thatcher meltdown of manufacturing industry. Every Friday night (it seems from memory) there was a section on the TV news listing the big companies who had announced x thousand lay-offs that week - remember back then a far larger proportion of workers were employed in a smaller number of large multi-nationals than in todays scattered 'gig' economy.

Plus they also announced new jobs though ironically the only new jobs seemed to be in retail.
 

Peter Mugridge

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Probably more importantly, this disease appears to most affect the same people as the flu, so to a large extent you wouldn't see overall deaths go up, more the annual toll being shared between flu and coronavirus. In practice it also seems like while we've hunkered down and hidden from it at this stage, over half of the most vulnerable people have been exposed to it, at a stage where there is little or no developed immunity. It wouldn't be at all unreasonable to expect ongoing annual hospitalisations and deaths to be maybe 10% of what we've seen this year. Overall the effect on the NHS might be as little as a 5% increase in the peak season intensive care needs.

We have had two consecutive winters without the usual major flu outbreaks; that may be a factor as well?
 

LAX54

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The health service is able to deal with the flu thanks partly to flu jabs and if people catch it, they tend to be too ill to go out, plus it has been around long enough that the facilities to deal with it are in place. I'm not sure if there is a period with flu when you have it and can spread it, but still feel healthy. With COVID, the flu-level death toll is on top of all the other things that stress the NHS, so it not guarenteed that the NHS would be able to cope if no mitigation measures were taken. The emergence of a new contageous virus does not make all the other causes of illness and death vanish.

If we want to treat COVID as another virus we have to deal with annually that is going to kill a five figure number of people, we have to increase the capacity of the NHS to cope with that as the normal on top of everything else. That means spending taxpayers money, and probably would require increasing taxes at some point to fund it, which people in the UK are known to dislike. It might come down to a choice of a little lower net wage, or periodic lockdowns and associated economic resessions.

2014/15 UK 29K deaths normal flu, 2017/2018 27K normal flu, now we have up to 44K this year, but how many are 'from' or 'with' ?
 

LAX54

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It makes good copy / tv visuals. I'm old enough to remember the Thatcher meltdown of manufacturing industry. Every Friday night (it seems from memory) there was a section on the TV news listing the big companies who had announced x thousand lay-offs that week - remember back then a far larger proportion of workers were employed in a smaller number of large multi-nationals than in todays scattered 'gig' economy.
True, and we have never recovered from that, the industry was shot to pieces
 

AdamWW

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and as someone said here a while ago France at least are now admitting they got it badly wrong with lockdown

You could interpret the article as implying that.

But you could also interpret it as saying that a lockdown has to be avoided if at all possible and they think (as in the UK) they can do that with local lockdowns, starting from where they are now and know what they know.

That is definitely not the same as saying that by the time they had the lockdown in France it was the wrong thing.

If they had tried local lockdowns at the point, would they have had the data to do so effectively? And would much of the country have been spared?
 

sheff1

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As of last weekend, yes, we're in a fairly similar position to where Sweden have been all along.

Quite. The difference, of course, is that Sweden aren't now suffering such a huge economic meltdown nor backlogs of treatment for non-Covid illness nor wondering what to do about months of children's lost education.

Never mind though, we are being offered £10 off a meal out.
 
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johnnychips

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This could have been in the pub bit, but I thought I’d put it here.

’The Mallard’ in Doncaster has an outside terrace, which is often used by smokers. It was a nice day yesterday, so I sat on it, not to smoke, but to look at the trains on Platform 1.

There was a table of four around which three people were standing smoking, and one sat down. The barmaid came out and said ‘you have to sit down!’ The customers, who I think were Romanian, ignored her, looking a bit bemused. When she came out again (can older readers remember Barbara Woodhouse?) she said ‘Sit! You have to sit! Or you will have to leave!’ They finished their fags anyway and went inside.

Five minutes later, a lad whom I’d taught years ago came out for a fag, and we were so pleased to see each other we instinctively shook hands - shock horror - and he stood talking to me on the far side of my
table. When she came out again, she told him to sit down.

Now I’m sure she was only obeying orders, but I haven’t seen any evidence, scientific, or indeed anecdotal, that a standing person transmits CV more than a sitting one :)
 
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AdamWW

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This could have been in the pub bit, but I thought I’d put it here.

’The Mallard’ in Doncaster has an outside terrace, which is often used by smokers. It was a nice day yesterday, so I sat on it, not to smoke, but to look at the trains on Platform 1.

There was a table of four around which three people were standing smoking and one sat down. The barmaid came out and said ‘you have to sit down!’ The customers, who I think were Romanian, ignored her, looking a bit bemused. When she came out again (can older readers remember Barbara Woodhouse?) she said ‘Sit! You have to sit! Or you will have to leave!’ They finished their fags anyway and went inside.

Five minutes later, a lad whom I’d taught years ago came out for a fag, and we were so pleased to see each other we instinctively shook hands - shock horror - and he stood talking to me on the far side of my
table. When she came out again, she told him to sit down.

Now I’m sure she was only obeying orders, but I haven’t seen any evidence, scientific, or indeed anecdotal, that a standing person transmits CV more than a sitting one :)

Daft in a way, but I can see the logic- they presumably want the capacity to be no more than the number of chairs, and the easiest way to keep track of that is to have everyone sitting in one.
 

johnnychips

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Daft in a way, but I can see the logic- they presumably want the capacity to be no more than the number of chairs, and the easiest way to keep track of that is to have everyone sitting in one.

This was outside, and they were literally stood behind the chairs! I can not comprehend how daft this is. There is a table for four, so it’s ok if everybody is sat down. On the other hand if people are stood behind the same chairs it is suddenly so dangerous it results in them being threatened with ejection from the pub! Come on!
 
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