bramling
Veteran Member
Dartmouth has never really been a pure heritage railway though. It has always been a tourist attraction. Likewise for Snowdon.
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Are Heritage railways trying to have it both ways ?
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Dartmouth has never really been a pure heritage railway though. It has always been a tourist attraction. Likewise for Snowdon.
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John Luxton
Established Member
A little bit about the Dart Valley Railway and its commercial operation. Back around 1972 the company issued shares of £1 each. I was a young teenager at the time and having visited the original Buckfastleigh Totnes line several times on holiday my father as a gift for my 13th birthday that year bought me £100 pounds worth of shares. I later discovered what he did was technically illegal as apparently you are not supposed to hold shares until you are 18! So there I was on my 13th Birthday instead of receiving from him the usual model railway equipment and books as in previous years I was presented with a share certificate!!
My father wasn't a railway enthusiast but indulged my interest, he dabbled in a very small way on the stockmarket and had never believed the railways should have been nationalised in the first place. The promotion of the Dart Valley Railway shares were seen by him as the dawn of a new age of privately owned railways.
The actual share sale was to fund the purchase of the Paignton to Kingswear line. The company being originally formed to operate the Ashburton Branch to Paignton via Buckfastleigh. However, plans were truncated by the Ashburton to Buckfastleigh line being taken for the A38 trunk road in 1971. There were also difficulties connecting with the mainline at Totnes at the time. Thus when Paignton to Kingswear was advertised for closure the DVR bought it
For many years the Dart Valley Railway Company ran both lines and I am sure during that period only two dividends of around £2.00 each were received, though when dividends were not issued shareholders received an annual complimentary ticket. The Buckfastleigh line appeared to be the drain on profits unlike the Kingswear line which carried a lot of traffic and made an end on connection with BR at Paignton. It had also been the intention to run a daily commuter service - but unfortunately that did not last more than the first year.
When the Buckfastleigh line was leased and later sold the commercial position of the DVR company changed. Enough money was now being made to pay an annual dividend which gradually increased. The company also dabbled in running a cinema adjacent to Paignton Station I seem to recall. However, later they acquired the pleasure steamer and ferry operations on the River Dart, then started running buses.
For quite a few years the shares were traded on the London Stock Exchange - unfortunately as the company owns the freehold of their land there were concerns that the company could be taken over for the value of its real estate at Kingswear which it has a very desirable waterfront location. As a consequence the company was delisted though remained a plc Public Limited Company
About two or three years ago it was decided to change the status to a Private Limited Company (LTD).
Up to last year dividends were reaching a good level on the 100 shares my Dad bought me and the initial £100 purchase price has been returned many times over.
However, thanks to COVID 19 there won't be any dividend this year and probably not for some years to come as losses will have undoubtedly built up and will need repaying.
Anyway that is my insight into the Paignton - Kingswear line being a shareholder!
John
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Peckett "Marcia" was there at the time of our visit in April 2013.
My best friends father is also a shareholder from those early days John and tells a very similar story.
It’s a railway that seems to be a bit Marmite to a lot of enthusiasts, but I absolutely love it for the scenery, the climbs etc, but also because it’s so successful and has made itself a part of the local transport infrastructure by bringing hundreds of visitors into Dartmouth each day.
GlitterUnicorn
Member
As a former young volunteer on a gliding airfield I have some thoughts/experience re:Volunteers and Health and Safety.
Generally the main risk were known and quite well handled. Air safety in particular was very well regulated. I have no complaints there. Airfields are dangerous places but with formal and informal training the basics were quite easy to handle. In terms of routine airfield operations I understood that I was not to do anything I hadn't been trained to do, to ask for help or to refuse a task if I wasn't trained. I also understood that if I raised concerns or refused to do something then I would be backed up 100%, and I always was.
I did develop a general contempt for members who felt that health and safety didn't apply to them. Mainly because while they had lofty ideas of personal liberty and "common sense" they tended to put other people in danger. Some thought nothing of placing me (and others) in unnecessarily dangerous situations. I won't go through all of them but while helping other people I was taught some working practices that they knew were very dangerous (to me, not to them). On one occasion a horrified observer taught me the correct way to do something and to refuse to help anyone who wouldn't let me do it that way. On another occasion at another airfield I had far too close an encounter with an aircraft propeller in frankly stupid circumstances, this was partially due to my mistake but also because during an event things were being run in quite a dangerous way. Looking back it was great fun. But also I can't help feeling that 90% of the risks came from a handful of people and situations where no-one had much regard for anyone's safety.
We can't treat breaking or disregarding Health and Safety as a personal choice, or an acceptable way to think. If you're acting in a dangerous way then you're a danger to the people around you, and it's frustrating that some people see that as acceptable.
Generally the main risk were known and quite well handled. Air safety in particular was very well regulated. I have no complaints there. Airfields are dangerous places but with formal and informal training the basics were quite easy to handle. In terms of routine airfield operations I understood that I was not to do anything I hadn't been trained to do, to ask for help or to refuse a task if I wasn't trained. I also understood that if I raised concerns or refused to do something then I would be backed up 100%, and I always was.
I did develop a general contempt for members who felt that health and safety didn't apply to them. Mainly because while they had lofty ideas of personal liberty and "common sense" they tended to put other people in danger. Some thought nothing of placing me (and others) in unnecessarily dangerous situations. I won't go through all of them but while helping other people I was taught some working practices that they knew were very dangerous (to me, not to them). On one occasion a horrified observer taught me the correct way to do something and to refuse to help anyone who wouldn't let me do it that way. On another occasion at another airfield I had far too close an encounter with an aircraft propeller in frankly stupid circumstances, this was partially due to my mistake but also because during an event things were being run in quite a dangerous way. Looking back it was great fun. But also I can't help feeling that 90% of the risks came from a handful of people and situations where no-one had much regard for anyone's safety.
We can't treat breaking or disregarding Health and Safety as a personal choice, or an acceptable way to think. If you're acting in a dangerous way then you're a danger to the people around you, and it's frustrating that some people see that as acceptable.
I was a youth volunteer on a steam railway back in the 90s and experienced the same thing. Particular favourites included removing asbestos by hand with no PPE. Then being given a dust mask and sent underneath the loco to vacuum up all the fluffy bits that had dropped to the floor.
Sent inside a saddle tank with a bucket of bitumastic paint to seal a leak "hold your breath and you'll be ok".
And the time I nearly got killed in a shunting accident, but that was partially my fault.
I did have great fun there, but I'm pretty horrified looking back.
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jumble
Member
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There will always be differences between countries risk assessments
With preserved trams in Blackpool customers is not allowed any near the driver on the trams that have no cab separation but in Brussels and Basel on their running days on the streets people can and do stand next to the driver which we have done on a Tram that had only manually operated brakes.
However in Basel they had an open trailer that is now no longer allowed to run as they perceive that the catenery may drop and harm people, whereas Blackpool of course have no such qualms as evidenced by the boats.
John Luxton
Established Member
It is strange though in recent years I have sailed on their boats more than I have travelled on the trains! Though I did take a trip two years ago. One of the problems that puts me off visiting the area more is parking, unless you get there early the only option is the park and ride at Dartmouth. I don't know what the Paignton end is like for parking these days as I avoid the whole of Torbay and prefer if doing a trip to start at Kingswear end.
Llanigraham
On Moderation
Last couple of times we've used it we've parked at Churston. Always seems plenty of room there.
I tend to do it the other way around because I’m travelling down from Exeter either by train or car. If I go by car I’ve generally found it fairly easy to park somewhere near the station.
GlitterUnicorn
Member
Yes, it was your original comment in this thread which made me comment, I think our experiences must have been quite similar in some ways.
People often use the assumption that people do (or ought to) know enough to keep themselves safe that we don't need health and safety (the enthusiast knows best), so at the time I also thought that a couple of incidents were my fault. Looking back though I'd been convinced to do things that I was entirely unprepared for. Rather than knowingly making bad decisions I was blundering around without knowing how inexperienced I actually was. Given the number of young volunteers and a lack of training this risk was totally forseeable.
Oh sorry, I didn't realise it was the same thread. And apologies for all the typos, which I've now corrected.
Yes, it was a different world in those days. Never thought I'd be the one wistfully talking about "the good old days"...
I'm always suspicious of things being declared "just common sense" as I think what is actually meant is things learnt from life experience and everyone's life experience is different. Therfore training is both necessary and needs to start assuming people now nothing but it can be done quickly if it turns out they do know some of it.
bramling
Veteran Member
Had no problem parking at Paignton in mid-morning last time we went on there. That was in September though, so not sure if high season would be an issue. I seem to remember parking in the station car park.
Crewe Exile
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In my experience The Dartmouth Steam Railway is fantastic. Had the pleasure of riding the line when on holiday with my family a good few times over the years, the kids especially enjoyed it. It has everything a heritage line needs - situated in an extremely popular tourist resort, National rail access, boat trips available, and views that really are worth taking a trip for.
As I can now pretty much be classed as a ‘norm’ (bashing days long over!) compared to a number of other lines it is the complete package for families.
It is noticible it’s very professionally run - as such it does lose a little authenticity, but have always enjoyed every visit.
As I can now pretty much be classed as a ‘norm’ (bashing days long over!) compared to a number of other lines it is the complete package for families.
It is noticible it’s very professionally run - as such it does lose a little authenticity, but have always enjoyed every visit.
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