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Leicester Station remodelling

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38Cto15E

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I think this work is an excellent improvement going forward, will the new turnout from Platform 1 to Down Fast be 40mph?
The only thing at the back of my mind, is the Birmingham terminaters block Platform 1 for 33 minutes meaning no Intermodals or aggregates trains could use Platform 1 and then continue along the goods line to Humberstone Road during that half hour.
 
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londonmidland

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The only thing at the back of my mind, is the Birmingham terminaters block Platform 1 for 33 minutes meaning no Intermodals or aggregates trains could use Platform 1 and then continue along the goods line to Humberstone Road during that half hour.
Usually freight requiring Humberstone Road will go through platform 2 (the down fast) if platform 1 is occupied. I don’t think many freight requiring Humberstone Road are routed on the up/down slow aka ‘round the back’ as that requires crossing both the up and down fast lines. Only as a last resort.

Intermodal traffic, ideally should, be routed on the UDS as it saves crossing over the up and down fast at Syston, as it heads east. Though the issue with this is that the UDS is limited to 10(?) mph through the station so it’s a slow process of it clearing the block. Not to mention it’s only single line.

So none of this will change anytime soon until extra lines from Wigston to Syston happen, along with a flyover at Wigston to avoid conflicting moves with the MML.
 

Senex

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I think this work is an excellent improvement going forward, will the new turnout from Platform 1 to Down Fast be 40mph?
The only thing at the back of my mind, is the Birmingham terminaters block Platform 1 for 33 minutes meaning no Intermodals or aggregates trains could use Platform 1 and then continue along the goods line to Humberstone Road during that half hour.
That doesn't look like a 40 crossover in the photo posted by londonmidland, even allowing for the foreshortening effect of the camera, but at best like the 25 between the DFL and UFL immediatrely adjacent to it. Given that the speed over the whole length of platform 1 and the south junction is clearly intended to end up at 30 (presumably the limit set by the platform curvature), I'd have hoped that this new crossover would have been for that speed too. I wonder if the D&UGL will remain as such, or if it will become the No. 2 D&USL.
On a slightly different topic, does anyone know if the time-saving from the work at London Road Jn has been incorporated into point-to-point running times from Leicester (start) to Wigston (pass) yet? Presumably if the new north-end work doesn't get finished till January any time-saving for arrivals into 2 from the south won't get into this December's timetable.
 

Hairy Bear

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That doesn't look like a 40 crossover in the photo posted by londonmidland, even allowing for the foreshortening effect of the camera, but at best like the 25 between the DFL and UFL immediatrely adjacent to it. Given that the speed over the whole length of platform 1 and the south junction is clearly intended to end up at 30 (presumably the limit set by the platform curvature), I'd have hoped that this new crossover would have been for that speed too. I wonder if the D&UGL will remain as such, or if it will become the No. 2 D&USL.
On a slightly different topic, does anyone know if the time-saving from the work at London Road Jn has been incorporated into point-to-point running times from Leicester (start) to Wigston (pass) yet? Presumably if the new north-end work doesn't get finished till January any time-saving for arrivals into 2 from the south won't get into this December's timetable.


Time wise Leicester to Wigston, I saw a reduction of 34 secs using a Meridian.
 

Senex

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Time wise Leicester to Wigston, I saw a reduction of 34 secs using a Meridian.
Ah, so that does seem to have been taken into account then. The Leicester to Wigston start-to-pass time for a 222 a few years ago was 3½ minutes, but in the current WTT it's down to 3. I think the only changes to speeds have been that through London Road Jn.
 

The Planner

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That doesn't look like a 40 crossover in the photo posted by londonmidland, even allowing for the foreshortening effect of the camera, but at best like the 25 between the DFL and UFL immediatrely adjacent to it. Given that the speed over the whole length of platform 1 and the south junction is clearly intended to end up at 30 (presumably the limit set by the platform curvature), I'd have hoped that this new crossover would have been for that speed too. I wonder if the D&UGL will remain as such, or if it will become the No. 2 D&USL.
On a slightly different topic, does anyone know if the time-saving from the work at London Road Jn has been incorporated into point-to-point running times from Leicester (start) to Wigston (pass) yet? Presumably if the new north-end work doesn't get finished till January any time-saving for arrivals into 2 from the south won't get into this December's timetable.
Stays as the Up and Down Goods, the turnout from p1 to the down fast is 25mph.
 

The Planner

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Only 25mph? Seems a lost opportunity to increase departure speeds. Looks like there's plenty of room to provide something better.
Depends on what the attainable speed of something departing the station can get to when the rear passes over the points. No point putting a high speed crossover in if it can't use it.
 

bunnahabhain

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Only 25mph? Seems a lost opportunity to increase departure speeds. Looks like there's plenty of room to provide something better.
There isn't, the trailing crossover from the Up side comes in not far beyond the toes of the crossover from P1.
 

Senex

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A pity, given how modern stock can accelerate. But it's the same as the rest of the ladder (DF>UF, UF>U&DS) at that point. (Rather different from what happened years ago in Stockport, when the former UGL from Edgeley 2 to Adswood Road was made the USL and the connection back into the up fast upgraded to 60mph.)
 

londonmidland

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I would like to think if and when the remodelling of the wider Leicester and Leicestershire area happens, there will be significant changes and improvements over the current layout.

High speed crossovers seem to be a bit of a rarity on the MML. I know there's a few south of Chesterfield, but are there any anywhere else?
 

Senex

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I would like to think if and when the remodelling of the wider Leicester and Leicestershire area happens, there will be significant changes and improvements over the current layout.

High speed crossovers seem to be a bit of a rarity on the MML. I know there's a few south of Chesterfield, but are there any anywhere else?
The first high-speed turnouts on the Midland that I can think of were the 60mph ones put in at Altofts Jn, when it was planned that the fast XC route to York would be via Normanton, and the 70mph slpit at Trent Jn (replacing the former 60/40 layout). After that I can't think of any 60/70 units before Clay Cross/Chesterfield and then Derby. Quite a few 40 and 50 middle-speed. But still lots of classic British low-speed stuff, as at St Pancras, Leicester, Nottingham (all pretty new!), Tapton, Sheffield, etc.
 

edwin_m

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Part of the penny-pinching on the Leicester re-signaling in the 80s was to adopt a fairly low speed for all new crossovers, 40mph I think. They even kept some existing even slower turnouts that happened to be in the right place, with the intention of upgrading them to 40 when they were due for renewal. Nottingham is now faster than it used to be, 25 rather than 15 I think.
 

Senex

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Part of the penny-pinching on the Leicester re-signaling in the 80s was to adopt a fairly low speed for all new crossovers, 40mph I think. They even kept some existing even slower turnouts that happened to be in the right place, with the intention of upgrading them to 40 when they were due for renewal. Nottingham is now faster than it used to be, 25 rather than 15 I think.
I've got a copy somewhere of the proposed track-layout from an earlier version of the Leicester scheme (when it was still proposed to be four-aspect) that shews 50mph crossovers as the suggested standard, but the final iteration, with three aspects and a significantly thinned-down layout, gives the 40mph ones. It's interesting that in the recent work Wellingborough North Jn has gone up from 25 to 50, whilst Market Harborough Jn has come down from 40 to 25. Nottingham is certainly better than it was, but the work at Derby, just a few yars later, seems to belong to a different world, it's so much more impressive. St Pancras is an odd one, with all the CTRL stuff straight out into that curve being really quite quick, whilst the old Midland 10mph layout was replaced on the new alignment with no more than 15. Weren't there some plans to do something with Sheffield as part of the original upgrade-for-CrossCountry scheme? In the event, at that time a lot was done on the open line between Derby and Sheffield, but nothing to the two big stations themsleves. When did the southbound departure speeds from Sheffield go up from 15 to 40 from pl.6 and 25 from pls.5&8?
I find it interesting to note how much variation there was between regions in BR days in layout-design (and within regions, even between routes). How much freedom did each CCE have to run his fiefdom as he saw fit, and how much freedom was then devolved to the Divisional Civil Engineers, I wonder?
 

edwin_m

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Wellingborough North will be where the Corby trains normally switch between fast to slow in one direction (don't remember which) so will be used every 30min and justifies a faster layout. Market Harbrough Junction is just the two crossovers, which will only be used in the unusual circumstance of single line working or a train terminating there. Anything using it probably also stops at the adjacent platforms so won't be able to go fast anyway, and using faster and longer crossovers would probably have needed a longer straight section, perhaps tightening the curve beyond and reducing the speed for non-stoppers.

At Derby the sweeping away of what was basically a Victorian layout and the removal of redundant goods lines allowed a major realignment of the south end, and therefore much higher speeds. There wasn't so much of an opportunity at Nottingham, or (back on topic alert!) at Leicester, as bridges and other features constrain how much the track can be re-arranged. I think Sheffield has to await wholesale re-signaling before anything is done (as Derby and Nottingham did) and that in turn will depend on HS2 requirements if Phase 2b goes ahead as planned.

The London Midland seemed noticeably sluggish in seeking out speed restrictions - much of the WCML electrification just hung the wires over steam-age layouts and even later on Crewe and Leicester didn't do much speed-wise. Contrast the Eastern's remodeling of Peterborough. Later on York and Newcastle replaced a huge amount of low-speed ironmongery with a simpler but much faster layout that probably increased capacity as modern trains with better acceleration could clear the junctions more quickly. Unlike Crewe and Leicester, York and Newcastle have mostly stood the test of time and handle today's traffic with only minor tweaks.
 

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The London Midland seemed noticeably sluggish in seeking out speed restrictions - much of the WCML electrification just hung the wires over steam-age layouts and even later on Crewe and Leicester didn't do much speed-wise. Contrast the Eastern's remodeling of Peterborough. Later on York and Newcastle replaced a huge amount of low-speed ironmongery with a simpler but much faster layout that probably increased capacity as modern trains with better acceleration could clear the junctions more quickly. Unlike Crewe and Leicester, York and Newcastle have mostly stood the test of time and handle today's traffic with only minor tweaks.
 

30907

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I basically agree but
1. the LM electrification south from Crewe was substantially descoped, at least in signalling terms, so that may have affected the amount of linespeed improvement.
2. Newcastle was a good job, helped by eliminating all those suburban services, but York was done on a bare-minimum basis and the South end has had to be remodelled to give capacity.
 

edwin_m

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2. Newcastle was a good job, helped by eliminating all those suburban services, but York was done on a bare-minimum basis and the South end has had to be remodelled to give capacity.
I think at York it was just a question of widening the three-track bottleneck by adding an extra track at Holgate. Didn't the rest of the layout stay pretty much the same?
 

Senex

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I think at York it was just a question of widening the three-track bottleneck by adding an extra track at Holgate. Didn't the rest of the layout stay pretty much the same?
I think the position of the signal at the north end of platform 9 was changed too (moved southwards) — perhaps someone can confirm or correct? But nothing was done to the layout at the north end, so the problems there with the limited access to the Scarborough line and no third track available for Harrogate trains remain. Even coming in from the south you still seem to get checked for a conflicting move remarkably often.

Re the first paragraph of your #135, it is indeed to be different crossovers in each direction as you say. It's going to be the down Corbys that cross at Wellingborough North. The up trains will use the entirely new incomplete ladder (no crossover between the DFL and UFL) at Wellingborough South, also 50mph. As for Market Harborough, things must have changed. Admittedly I'm looking back quite a few years, but I have a good few memories of using the former south-end crossovers at 40mph on Sunday trains not stopping at MH, much more often in the down direction than the up, and even occasionally for one reason or another on weekdays. (A highlight was the decidedly un-British experience of reaching the full 100mph "wrong" line between Kilby Bridge and Great Bowden — though in that direction not before the 95 at Newton Harcourt, of course!) Incidentally, MH was one of the places where the 1981 scheme version proposed 50s, north of the station at 83½ miles.
 

38Cto15E

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That would feel very strange going around the bends near to Newton Harcourt on the line you would not usually use in that direction.
 

Senex

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I didn't put that as clearly as I should have done. Northbound "wrong" line you certainly got up to 100, with the need for a slight reduction at Newton Harcourt, but southbound there hadn't been time by then after 40 at Kilby Bridge to reach those speeds. The 100 was achieved further on. Sorry! How many other bi-di examples were there where speeds "wrong" direction were identical to those normal direction?
 

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Senex

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It also seems to negate some of the benefit of the work done/being done at the south and north ends. The main lines/Kettering lines would use platforms 3 and 4, which would reduce the speed on the up line from 40 to 25 and might also involve a restriction at the south end of 3. The possibilty of cross-platform intrrchange would also disappear. But much worse, if the existing Knighton New Tunnel were to be re-used, would be the very severe kink at the north end for both Kettering lines. And surely the implication of putting Nuneaton-line services on teh western pair of tracks from Wigston is that any going on towards Melton would have to cross the down and up main/Kettering lines either at the north end of the station or at Syston on the level (unless a flyover were to be provided there rather than at Wigston). The whole scheme says that it is assuming delivery of HS2b, but isn't there still an "if" and "when" about that?
 

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It also seems to negate some of the benefit of the work done/being done at the south and north ends. The main lines/Kettering lines would use platforms 3 and 4, which would reduce the speed on the up line from 40 to 25 and might also involve a restriction at the south end of 3. The possibilty of cross-platform intrrchange would also disappear. But much worse, if the existing Knighton New Tunnel were to be re-used, would be the very severe kink at the north end for both Kettering lines. And surely the implication of putting Nuneaton-line services on teh western pair of tracks from Wigston is that any going on towards Melton would have to cross the down and up main/Kettering lines either at the north end of the station or at Syston on the level (unless a flyover were to be provided there rather than at Wigston). The whole scheme says that it is assuming delivery of HS2b, but isn't there still an "if" and "when" about that?

It does seem odd that you would do a study which didn't take the whole Leicester area into account. Not sure what HS2 really has to do with it as I would expect a similar number of services to now on the MML, with more on the Anglia - Nuneaton route.
 

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The report is appears to be based on limited freight through Leicester. It states that this will all need to be revisited if there is significantly more freight between Felixstowe and Nuneaton.
 

Ianno87

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The report is appears to be based on limited freight through Leicester. It states that this will all need to be revisited if there is significantly more freight between Felixstowe and Nuneaton.

Assumes average 2 paths per hour per direction through Leicester itself.

All North-South freight assumed via Corby using recent double tracking - presume its paths diverted via Corby roughly freeing up paths for other flows through Leicester.


Paths from Nuneaton direction forecast to be a mix of towards Trent Jn and towards Melton Mowbray - not everything going across the lot.
 

The Planner

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Strikes me as odd though, especially with the fanfare of F2N in the past. Cements Nuneaton north chord as more of a white elephant.
 

edwin_m

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It also seems to negate some of the benefit of the work done/being done at the south and north ends. The main lines/Kettering lines would use platforms 3 and 4, which would reduce the speed on the up line from 40 to 25 and might also involve a restriction at the south end of 3. The possibilty of cross-platform intrrchange would also disappear. But much worse, if the existing Knighton New Tunnel were to be re-used, would be the very severe kink at the north end for both Kettering lines. And surely the implication of putting Nuneaton-line services on teh western pair of tracks from Wigston is that any going on towards Melton would have to cross the down and up main/Kettering lines either at the north end of the station or at Syston on the level (unless a flyover were to be provided there rather than at Wigston). The whole scheme says that it is assuming delivery of HS2b, but isn't there still an "if" and "when" about that?
Sounds to me as if the remit was "What can you do in Leicester without building the Wigston grade separation?".

There is some benefit of keeping the Nuneaton services on the west in that the Birmingham terminator is clear of the main lines … assuming it isn't extended to Peterborough/Cambridge which the report mentions as an aspiration.
 

Class 170101

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Assumes average 2 paths per hour per direction through Leicester itself.

All North-South freight assumed via Corby using recent double tracking - presume its paths diverted via Corby roughly freeing up paths for other flows through Leicester.


Paths from Nuneaton direction forecast to be a mix of towards Trent Jn and towards Melton Mowbray - not everything going across the lot.

Can the line between Manton Jn and Syston North Jn cope with all the north to south freight avoiding Leicester?

It also looks like Syston South Jn to Syston East Jn remains single.

Even if HS2B (Eastern) is built I don't think that will provide anymore paths through Leicester for East West Freight due to this single Line section and the Block sections between Manton and Syston North Jns..
 
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