How much would you pay for your training ?

ComUtoR · 17 Jul 2020

Pretty simple really. Other industries make you pay for your training. How much would you be willing to pay if :

You passed your Assessments
You passed your Medical

You could then pay for an independent rules course so you would be fully rules trained and could then apply to any TOC for local rules and traction.

Lots to discuss but I really wanna hear your magic number.

RailUK Forums

4F89 · 17 Jul 2020

Teddyward · 17 Jul 2020

ComUtoR · 17 Jul 2020

Is that because your training has no value or because you don't belive you should pay ?

There is a looooong queue out the doors and any applicant who was already rules trained would have a huge advantage over any other applicant. It would also allow you to walk in the door of any TOC in the country already rules trained.

With apprenticeships and NVQs fast becoming the norm. You will have a Nationally recognised qualification. No paper sift, no assessment, just the DMI and then Traction.

ILoveLamp · 17 Jul 2020

Would you not need the Psychometric Tests pass also?

ComUtoR · 17 Jul 2020

ILoveLamp said:
Would you not need the Psychometric Tests pass also?

Yes. I would assume that those would take place before you sat rules.

There has already been a link posted for a company who you would pay to sit the assessments. DBS charged around £500 and people were willing to pay. There has also been mentioned about people paying for independent medicals :/

Even if you assumed that the entire thing was all included in the price. Free assessment day and medical; inclusive of rules course. One big giant fee. How much would tempt you ? £3k ?

5thrail · 17 Jul 2020

So you would like only those who can afford it to get the job? That sounds fair. The best thing about the railway is it attracts people from all walks of life.

I understand what you are saying, but it's a slippery slope...

43066 · 17 Jul 2020

ComUtoR said:
Pretty simple really. Other industries make you pay for your training. How much would you be willing to pay if :

You passed your Assessments
You passed your Medical

You could then pay for an independent rules course so you would be fully rules trained and could then apply to any TOC for local rules and traction.

Lots to discuss but I really wanna hear your magic number.

That’s a very interesting question.

I’d be willing to pay £0.

4F89 · 17 Jul 2020

5thrail said:
So you would like only those who can afford it to get the job? That sounds fair. The best thing about the railway is it attracts people from all walks of life.

I understand what you are saying, but it's a slippery slope...

This

ComUtoR · 17 Jul 2020

5thrail said:
So you would like only those who can afford it to get the job?

It doesn't matter what I would like. Pilots pay, why not the railway ? It's also a case of what are others willing to do. Would I pay ? TBH not sure. Looking back I would never have been in a position to pay but who is to say it would be self funded. Grants are available for other careers and the benefit system contributes to many jobs. Looking far back, If I knew then what I know now. I would have joined at 21 and tbh would have payed to get in too. Someone on my assessment day payed the TOC £100 to sit the assessments. He walked out with a pass and was never seen again. I asked him why did he pay and for him it was a just easier to pay than fight the system.

I understand what you are saying, but it's a slippery slope...

One that has already started. DB have been charging for years and people have been paying. The company that was linked a few months back got a lot of interest. People are wiling to pay. I'm very interested to know their price.

Rail recruitment is ruthless. This would be the easy way in. Those in tallent pools or those who wait for years to pass the sift would surely be willing to pay their way to the front of the queue.

mmh · 17 Jul 2020

Zero. Which other industries make you pay for training which qualifies you to work only for one "company" (the British railway network)?

ComUtoR · 17 Jul 2020

5thrail said:
So you would like only those who can afford it to get the job? That sounds fair.

I'll even make it really easy for your to be tempted. £1k gets you the Assessment day, Medical, and rules course with a guaranteed two attempts.

endofthetunnel · 17 Jul 2020

(I don’t want to be a train driver but I can still have an opinion...)
Lots of other industries need you to pay for your own training so it’s a fair question. Especially self employed people like electricians, builders, people needing plant licenses etc

I’d think it would be worth a few thousand quid, maybe £3-5k, assuming that you go straight to the pretty much full rate when in a role.
I think skipping the year or so of lower pay would be well worth the initial outlay. Even more worthwhile if the training could be done at a time and location of your choice, even whilst still holding onto another job, then when the role you want comes up you can slot straight in.

ComUtoR · 17 Jul 2020

How much is a Degree nowdays?

5thrail · 17 Jul 2020

ComUtoR said:
I'll even make it really easy for your to be tempted. £1k gets you the Assessment day, Medical, and rules course with a guaranteed two attempts.

From an entirely selfish point of view, i would pay. But it leads to misrepresentation, class issues, race issues and all other things that are messing up the world just now. That is not something I subscribe to.

Yes it is starting and could very well be the future. Not one I would like to be a part of.

Thankfully, I have a job now and am grateful to work with all types of interesting people

mmh · 17 Jul 2020

endofthetunnel said:
Lots of other industries need you to pay for your own training so it’s a fair question. Especially self employed people like electricians, builders, people needing plant licenses etc

The difference is those people can use their qualification to get a job with countless employers, or set up in business themselves. This train driver qualification would give you access to an interview for a job with a tiny number of vacancies at an effective monopoly employer, with no possibility of self employment.

ComUtoR · 17 Jul 2020

endofthetunnel said:
I’d think it would be worth a few thousand quid, maybe £3-5k, assuming that you go straight to the pretty much full rate when in a role.
I think skipping the year or so of lower pay would be well worth the initial outlay.

I think my TOC has their 1st year Drivers around £8k less than full wage. I think that pay up front and no 1st year wage is certainly an interesting point. You would earn it back in your first year.

Even more worthwhile if the training could be done at a time and location of your choice, even whilst still holding onto another job, then when the role you want comes up you can slot straight in.

Not something I'd considered. Good point, well made.

ComUtoR · 17 Jul 2020

5thrail said:
Yes it is starting and could very well be the future. Not one I would like to be a part of.

I see your point about class and race etc. Universities pose the same kind of issues. One of the most amazing thing about working for the Railway has been that it allows everyone a chance and pays serious bank. It would be hard to give that up.

mmh said:
The difference is those people can use their qualification to get a job with countless employers, or set up in business themselves. This train driver qualification would give you access to an interview for a job with a tiny number of vacancies at an effective monopoly employer, with no possibility of self employment.

There are a plethora of TOCs who are always recruiting. The qualification would give you access to pretty much every single TOC around the entire country. It would also give you a huge advantage. You would be rules trained already. The TOC would require minimal training and therefore minimal cost. Your value just skyrockets.

TheGoldfish · 17 Jul 2020

My contract includes the training funding agreement which quotes £9k for training ...and if leaving before 2nd year qualified they’d possibly seek to recoup around £5k from me ? Not sure how enforceable that would actually be but regardless they value the training fairly highly and expect s return on the investment? But subbing it out ... could they guarantee consistency ?

4F89 · 17 Jul 2020

TheGoldfish said:
My contract includes the training funding agreement which quotes £9k for training ...and if leaving before 2nd year qualified they’d possibly seek to recoup around £5k from me ? Not sure how enforceable that would actually be but regardless they value the training fairly highly and expect s return on the investment? But subbing it out ... could they guarantee consistency ?

16k with my place

Jon1930 · 17 Jul 2020

ComUtoR · 17 Jul 2020

Recoup at our place is around £17k in the first year and then depreciates. Drivers who have left recently have paid

Generally leaving in year 3 and paying out a grand or more.

SlimJim1694 · 17 Jul 2020

The train drivers job is only as popular as it is because it's so well paid for a job that anyone can get if they pass the process. How many people would want to get up at 0230 in the morning, miss loads of family and social events, get their holidays when they are allocated rather than when they choose, not be able to drink when they want to, spend hours alone, and potentially get banged up for making a mistake if the pay was £25,000? Not many I suspect.

ComUtoR · 17 Jul 2020

SlimJim1694 said:
if the pay was £25,000?

An applicant who is already rules qualified is worth more to the TOC. I've heard staggering numbers about the training costs. There is a reason why some TOCs only want qualified. I'm not a pilot but a fair few at my TOC are. Because they have to pay they command higher wages. I don't belive that this would depreciate wages. In fact, becaus eyou were in higher demand. I suspsect that wages would rise. Especially if a consequence was 1st year salaries were abolished.

SlimJim1694 · 17 Jul 2020

ComUtoR said:
An applicant who is already rules qualified is worth more to the TOC. I've heard staggering numbers about the training costs. There is a reason why some TOCs only want qualified. I'm not a pilot but a fair few at my TOC are. Because they have to pay they command higher wages. I don't belive that this would depreciate wages. In fact, becaus eyou were in higher demand. I suspsect that wages would rise. Especially if a consequence was 1st year salaries were abolished.

I know. I'm just pointing out that the vast majority of these people don't want to be train drivers, they just want to earn £55k. If people who worked in Poundland were on £55k and train drivers were on £25k you'd soon see how many of these people really wanted to be train drivers. Its not the job most of them want, it's the wage. Plenty can't hack the job when they get it.

ComUtoR · 17 Jul 2020

I started on £21k

Didn't even know the wage when I applied.

However.... Would you pay £3k to potentially get a £60k job ?

Remind me about those Student loans and Uni fees.....

Mattydo · 17 Jul 2020

ComUtoR said:
Pretty simple really. Other industries make you pay for your training. How much would you be willing to pay if :

You passed your Assessments
You passed your Medical

You could then pay for an independent rules course so you would be fully rules trained and could then apply to any TOC for local rules and traction.

Lots to discuss but I really wanna hear your magic number.

So I’ve been a “commercial pilot” for about 12 years. I did not pay for my training as there is no way on earth I would have ever been able to find the spare £100k to fund the course and required add-ons. Even the semi sponsored schemes in the U.K. require you to take out a secured loan against a property. Risky business.

I was lucky enough to get into a fully paid up course. One of the very few such courses that existed then. I suppose I paid in some amount in the form of a slightly reduced wage for the first five years but given the alternative ways pilots are required to fund their own training it was still far better.

Simply put I was able to get sponsored because I showed the aptitude for the role and our of a huge candidate pool I was (on the day I hasten to add I’m not special) the best candidate. Had that sponsorship not existed I would never have been a pilot.

It’s a slippery slope and now not only do airlines generally only hire qualified pilots they also expect you to self fund a type rating (another £16k), and as an ab initio quite likely fund some of your own initial line training. The whole process takes years and in that time you’re making very little money, if any, whilst paying out tens of thousands. To say it isn’t very egalitarian would be an understatement. It is not a system that favours the best candidates but the candidates that can pay.

It is also a system that has led to a real drop in terms and conditions as people become more and more willing to pay for their dream. Not realising perhaps that commercial flying isn’t quite what they expect.

I’m now pursuing a career on the railways. I love flying planes but the industry is not the same as it once once, and I have to admit to a long term love affair with rail travel. Not a spotter per se but a fan of rail as an environmentally friendly, engineering heavy means of travel.

I would be disheartened if the railway followed the same path as my current industry as I do not think it produces the best candidates or the best working environment for its employees.

43066 · 17 Jul 2020

SlimJim1694 said:
I know. I'm just pointing out that the vast majority of these people don't want to be train drivers, they just want to earn £55k. If people who worked in Poundland were on £55k and train drivers were on £25k you'd soon see how many of these people really wanted to be train drivers. Its not the job most of them want, it's the wage. Plenty can't hack the job when they get it.

And those are the people who get a key, screw up multiple times, and end up on the dole within their first year.

mmh · 17 Jul 2020

43066 said:
And those are the people who get a key, screw up multiple times, and end up on the dole within their first year.

It's perfectly possible to be competent at a job you hate, however. Lots of people are in that position.

43066 · 17 Jul 2020

mmh said:
It's perfectly possible to be competent at a job you hate, however. Lots of people are in that position.

From experience, not this job. It will get you sooner rather than later.

How much would you pay for your training ?

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