This. First Group were actively pushing for the messaging to change before shops were reopened on 15 June.
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Boss of Northern Rail Has a theory about why passengers are not prepared to travel.
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This. First Group were actively pushing for the messaging to change before shops were reopened on 15 June.
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But that's a red herring for the past few weeks as demand was massively suppressed anyway; see the following post:
Our empty trains “no better than a model railway” - Anthony Smith
The chief executive of Transport Focus Anthony Smith warned yesterday that TOCs are acting like they are “in charge of a beautiful model railway”. Mr. Smith added: “It’s got trains moving around, the signals change, and the staff are there, it is lovely and clean – there is just no business...
www.railforums.co.uk
Have Northern given out incorrect information in their response to the FOI request?
LNW-GW Joint
Veteran Member
Richard George is not the MD of Northern.
He's Non Exec Chairman of DOHL (DfT OLR Holdings Ltd) which is the vehicle we usually refer to as "OLR", which runs Northern and LNER as TOCs.
He was one of the senior consultants who put the operational plan for Northern together for TfN and DfT.
As a consultant, he's Director of the modestly titled Independent Railway Experts Ltd.
If you are looking for a "Fat Controller" for the railway, he would be a candidate.
He could be playing a major part in the railway organisation of the future.
He's Non Exec Chairman of DOHL (DfT OLR Holdings Ltd) which is the vehicle we usually refer to as "OLR", which runs Northern and LNER as TOCs.
He was one of the senior consultants who put the operational plan for Northern together for TfN and DfT.
As a consultant, he's Director of the modestly titled Independent Railway Experts Ltd.
If you are looking for a "Fat Controller" for the railway, he would be a candidate.
He could be playing a major part in the railway organisation of the future.
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I think he's missed the point completely.
All TOC's are dealing with an unprecedented situation, yet some are performing worse than others.
MDB1images
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It's a valid point as some people are really scared however it's one that is decreasing particularly at certain times of the day.
I had a couple of hen groups on board a very busy train today which is a sign of 'normal' returning.
I had a couple of hen groups on board a very busy train today which is a sign of 'normal' returning.
I agree with you that many are "in denial" about the problems the rail industry faces. I said in April I expect 20% drop in passenger numbers in the short to medium term. Already that looks incredibly optimistic.
In my view, people are distracted by the "psychological" issue but the bigger issue is cost.
As an employee, when you're saving 20% of disposable income every month by not using trains and getting lunch from Greggs et al it's a pretty nice boost. For many working people with dependent(s) (childcare cost savings as well) and high mortgage payments this is huge.
I was watching a report on Sky News yesterday on office space in London and how the City was completely deserted. Companies are also realising that they can potentially save overheads on rent costs by moving to remote working as well.
That sort of fits in with my point.
Commuting is going to be surpressed regardless, so TOC's shouldn't be throwing all their resources at it to the extent of neglecting their other services.
I agree.
I was about to post this, too. It’s a regional newspaper clickbait headline that has been repeated for effect here. He’s the Chairman, which is a non-executive role and which, by definition, means that he does not run anything at all.
Richard George
A successful deliverer of high-profile, large-scale projects, Richard has 45 years of experience operating at the most senior level in the UK transport industry. Currently, an independent advisor, Richard’s previous roles have included being Managing Director for Global Rail and Transit...
It’s at least possible that he has held his views on this situation for some considerable time, but has not felt that they were being taken seriously within the industry, or the DfT, so he has gone public.
Some TOCs are indeed performing worse, but we don’t officially know why. Are messrooms full of unrosterd drivers? If not, why not? Why is (for example) The Highland Chieftain not running? Why can’t Northern run a better timetable? Detailed research, examination and understanding of the issues is probably essential, and a level of imagination about what’s going on behind the scenes likewise.
An internal note to GWR staff from their MD that was mentioned on another thread seems to suggest that they ‘get’ this and are looking at leisure, particularly long-distance travel as being a growth route out of this.
The latest LNER customers panel questionnaire suggests that they have less of a clue and as a result sound more like Nero.
It sounds like the media reporting of this is misleading and I'm sure people are quite willing to accept it's not this individual's fault.
But I absolutely reject any suggestions that Northern did not bring this on themselves.
By looking at their messaging, the complaints via social media, and the extremely low loadings of the vast majority of their trains, it's absolutely clear the company had been acting in an appalling manner and has been misleading, as well as mistreating, the public.
I don't think @FQTV and @tbtc can have read the post I linked to; it contains many quotes from key industry experts. All of them were warning against this messaging. All of them were ignored by Northern. They were all absolutely spot on. I really recommend watching the video I linked to. It contains examples of good practise as well as bad practise.
If anyone has seen all the evidence I posted and still disagrees I would like to know why? People are entitled to their views but there is no way I can believe all these well respected experts can be wrong, and it would be absurd to suggest otherwise.
But I absolutely reject any suggestions that Northern did not bring this on themselves.
By looking at their messaging, the complaints via social media, and the extremely low loadings of the vast majority of their trains, it's absolutely clear the company had been acting in an appalling manner and has been misleading, as well as mistreating, the public.
I don't think @FQTV and @tbtc can have read the post I linked to; it contains many quotes from key industry experts. All of them were warning against this messaging. All of them were ignored by Northern. They were all absolutely spot on. I really recommend watching the video I linked to. It contains examples of good practise as well as bad practise.
If anyone has seen all the evidence I posted and still disagrees I would like to know why? People are entitled to their views but there is no way I can believe all these well respected experts can be wrong, and it would be absurd to suggest otherwise.
I agree.
I was about to post this, too. It’s a regional newspaper clickbait headline that has been repeated for effect here. He’s the Chairman, which is a non-executive role and which, by definition, means that he does not run anything at all.
Richard George
A successful deliverer of high-profile, large-scale projects, Richard has 45 years of experience operating at the most senior level in the UK transport industry. Currently, an independent advisor, Richard’s previous roles have included being Managing Director for Global Rail and Transit...www.gov.uk
It’s at least possible that he has held his views on this situation for some considerable time, but has not felt that they were being taken seriously within the industry, or the DfT, so he has gone public.
Some TOCs are indeed performing worse, but we don’t officially know why. Are messrooms full of unrosterd drivers? If not, why not? Why is (for example) The Highland Chieftain not running? Why can’t Northern run a better timetable? Detailed research, examination and understanding of the issues is probably essential, and a level of imagination about what’s going on behind the scenes likewise.
An internal note to GWR staff from their MD that was mentioned on another thread seems to suggest that they ‘get’ this and are looking at leisure, particularly long-distance travel as being a growth route out of this.
The latest LNER customers panel questionnaire suggests that they have less of a clue and as a result sound more like Nero.
It would be useful to know why TOC's are performing so differently.
It's good to hear that Great Western are on the ball. As a TOC, it's well placed to take advantage of leisure demand. But then again, from my experiences of heading down that way, it's tended to make the best of its tourist lines anyway.
tbtc
Veteran Member
Again, please look at what the guy is saying about the problems that the industry will face in attracting people back to trains, once the restrictions are lifted and the economy comes back off life support.
There's a lot of criticism on here for how Northern have handled the past four months, but this OP wasn't a discussion about how Northern have handled "supply" during the period where millions were furloughed/ millions worked from home/ pretty much all leisure travel across the UK ceased - this was a quote about the problems that the railway will face in attracting people back, trying to get back towards where things used to be.
A lot of jobs will no longer exist (meaning a lot less demand, especially for leisure events), a lot of "office" jobs will be done from home at least a few days a week (making the economics of a season ticket a lot harder to justify, meaning TOCs lose that predictable reliable income), social distancing is going to significantly affect the number of people who can cram onto a service...
...but even if people still need to get into central Leeds/Manchester (etc) to be at a desk for 09:00 five days a week, there are going to be psychological problems for a lot of people when it comes to boarding public transport - that's the reality of what we have to deal with going forward. I'm sure people can complain a lot about how many services have been running over the past four months, but that wasn't what the OP was about - hence my feeling that people are playing the man, not the ball - automatically criticising a guy for past performance (rather than reading what he's actually saying).
In the grand scheme of things, the number of seats provided for a few months when the economy was on lockdown and non-essential journeys weren't permitted will be seen as a blip - the bigger problem (one which the OP seemed to be facing up to) is what the long term future of public transport is going to be, in an era where people won't be prepared to put up with close proximity to strangers.
Good points.
After a decade of "austerity", a lot of people haven't seen any real terms pay rise from where they were before the global banking crash - now that they've got used to working from home (and not paying thousands a year for a season ticket, not paying for all of the additional costs of commuting (grabbing coffees and sandwiches and living-on-the-go), it's going to be hard to persuade them to pay large sums of money so they can cram next to strangers.
Whilst some people were happy to rush back into pubs at the first chance, the reason why face "masks" are going to be required in shops etc is because a large proportion of the public don't feel safe enough to go back to how things used to be - there's a significant chunk of Britons who feel anxious about busy places.
Plus, as you say, this works for companies too. If "Dave" works in my office then I need to rent that office, I need to pay for security for the office, I need to pay for cleaners, I need to pay for electricity, I need lift maintenance and plumbers and various other costs - if I can persuade "Dave" to work from home then I can let the lease expire on the office (and consider a significantly smaller place in future, possibly on a short term rental basis - like Regus).
There's a lot of hard truths to face up to, which is why I guess it's easier to have a knee-jerk reaction and continue to complain about how many trains were running during a period where non-essential travel wasn't allowed.
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
Because people in glass houses shouldn't throw stones.
Though what he really needs back are leisure passengers, not commuters. Northern is still very much a 2 to 4-car railway, so providing the peak capacity is much, much harder than down South. If they could return to the days (1990s say) when most lines would be adequately served (in capacity terms) by a 2-car DMU once or twice an hour, their costs would plummet. A leisure-only-plus-a-few-commuters railway (you can see what that would look like simply by looking at loadings and timetables on any pre-lockdown Saturday) would fit that entirely.
So does he really want the peaky, moany, full-and-standing commuters back?
@tbtc You completely misunderstand again.
No-one is talking about the period when non-essential travel wasn't allowed. That was ages ago.
Yes the reasons you state for reduced demand are very real; but that's no reason to justify the messaging that was given out in recent weeks. Did you see my quote of Andy Wakeford? The floodgate analogy was very apt, I thought.
I'm guessing you didn't read it, as you don't appear to be disagreeing with it.
No-one is talking about the period when non-essential travel wasn't allowed. That was ages ago.
Yes the reasons you state for reduced demand are very real; but that's no reason to justify the messaging that was given out in recent weeks. Did you see my quote of Andy Wakeford? The floodgate analogy was very apt, I thought.
I'm guessing you didn't read it, as you don't appear to be disagreeing with it.
ForTheLoveOf
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Northern Trains Ltd. is owned by the Secretary of State via some intermediate holding companies. The people actually running NTL are a group of consultants and managers, many of whom will be the same ones that served under Arriva. The DfT is not directly, literally in day-to-day control of NTL.
As the FoI request linked to by @yorkie demonstrates, NTL did not have instructions from the DfT to give "do not travel" advice. The "do not travel" message which they promulgated was entirely their interpretation of how to solve the social distancing problems of demand vs supply.
Clearly the messaging is not the only problem here - but it certainly did not help. It is noticeable that other TOCs have significantly more traffic on average, which cannot solely be explained away by reference to other factors (e.g. people wanting to go to the seaside).
Killingworth
Established Member
I suppose I'm lucky insofar as Northern have been running an almost normal service through the Hope Valley for some time. What's more we've been seeing 2x150s on most trains instead of single Pacers not so very long ago. The stops they make are mostly at unmanned stations, the exceptions being Sheffield and Piccadilly, so measures to discourage travel have been less obvious. I met a Northern lady checking signage one morning and that's been about the limit.
Commuting traffic into Sheffield is as dead as it could be. The 7.54 from Dore yesterday (a single 150) picked up 2 passengers to add to the 5 already aboard. On a normal day 40-50 would have joined. I'd say the normal commuter flow to and from Manchester is every bit as dead, and that's a TPE route where 6 coach trains are carrying very few people. The 6 coach 8.05 to Cleethorpes picked up 1 at Dore to add to the 5 or 6 visible heads that were already aboard yesterday! It normally picks up nearer 20.
However, leisure users are creeping back. I caught the 11.14 out of eerily quiet Sheffield yesterday. Most shops are still shut and office workers obviously not at their desks. Traffic was very light in the city centre. I expected to find an empty train. Not so. The rear coach had over 25 aboard, the second another 20, the third probably a dozen. I sat in the front coach with about 4 others. All looked to be masked.
I'd agree that Northern have gone OTT with signage and messaging, but it's the overall message coming from government that's dishing rail and bus transport. The place of work is a potential death trap, and trains and buses are breeding grounds for the virus. That's been drummed into us day after remorseless day in the media.
Risk assessments are constantly being redrawn in response to the latest government edict. For public transport the latest update was only yesterday, see; Coronavirus (COVID-19): safer travel guidance for passengers In my retirement I'm involved with three voluntary roles. Every one has been producing risk assessments every bit as off putting as the rules implemented by Northern. Until the end of last month almost everything was shut down completely. The trouble is RAs are a minefield for potential litigation if anything goes wrong. Many employers daren't ask their workforce to return to their normal work place. A lot have found it's chaeper and more effective for their staff to work from home and use video conferencing.
Just imagine writing a RA to include places like Platforms 13/14 at Piccadilly, and think how that could possibly keep separation once any number of passengers return. Going back to my 11.14 at Sheffield yesterday, it was clear some weren't bothered unduly about separation, coaches 1 and 2. A smaller minority of us were, coaches 3 and 4. As the guard won't have left the rear cab I'm at a loss to know where we go from here!!
PS Out of several recent journeys it was only on an EMR service that the guard cheerily came through the train. Well done, but at unusually quiet Piccadilly Platform 13 most passengers boarded the rear 3 coaches of 4. Plenty of space at the front. I felt like an intruder there, passengers out numbered by all the staff to ensure our safety.
Commuting traffic into Sheffield is as dead as it could be. The 7.54 from Dore yesterday (a single 150) picked up 2 passengers to add to the 5 already aboard. On a normal day 40-50 would have joined. I'd say the normal commuter flow to and from Manchester is every bit as dead, and that's a TPE route where 6 coach trains are carrying very few people. The 6 coach 8.05 to Cleethorpes picked up 1 at Dore to add to the 5 or 6 visible heads that were already aboard yesterday! It normally picks up nearer 20.
However, leisure users are creeping back. I caught the 11.14 out of eerily quiet Sheffield yesterday. Most shops are still shut and office workers obviously not at their desks. Traffic was very light in the city centre. I expected to find an empty train. Not so. The rear coach had over 25 aboard, the second another 20, the third probably a dozen. I sat in the front coach with about 4 others. All looked to be masked.
I'd agree that Northern have gone OTT with signage and messaging, but it's the overall message coming from government that's dishing rail and bus transport. The place of work is a potential death trap, and trains and buses are breeding grounds for the virus. That's been drummed into us day after remorseless day in the media.
Risk assessments are constantly being redrawn in response to the latest government edict. For public transport the latest update was only yesterday, see; Coronavirus (COVID-19): safer travel guidance for passengers In my retirement I'm involved with three voluntary roles. Every one has been producing risk assessments every bit as off putting as the rules implemented by Northern. Until the end of last month almost everything was shut down completely. The trouble is RAs are a minefield for potential litigation if anything goes wrong. Many employers daren't ask their workforce to return to their normal work place. A lot have found it's chaeper and more effective for their staff to work from home and use video conferencing.
Just imagine writing a RA to include places like Platforms 13/14 at Piccadilly, and think how that could possibly keep separation once any number of passengers return. Going back to my 11.14 at Sheffield yesterday, it was clear some weren't bothered unduly about separation, coaches 1 and 2. A smaller minority of us were, coaches 3 and 4. As the guard won't have left the rear cab I'm at a loss to know where we go from here!!
PS Out of several recent journeys it was only on an EMR service that the guard cheerily came through the train. Well done, but at unusually quiet Piccadilly Platform 13 most passengers boarded the rear 3 coaches of 4. Plenty of space at the front. I felt like an intruder there, passengers out numbered by all the staff to ensure our safety.
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This is total nonsense.
Those "consultants" have the full backing of the Secretary of State. If they were asked to make changes by the Minister, they would do so without objections. If the Minister wasn't satisfied that this had been done they'd begin the legal process to enforce their contracts or attempt to have them dismissed. Therefore, the Department are quite satisfied with the outcomes at Northern. Which makes perfect sense.
It's obvious George was trying to be sensitive in public, not "throw stones". Please try to be a little more mature?
oscarthecat92
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I ventured out on the Skipton to Leeds line the first time since early March today, following Boris' announcement yesterday. The Northern 333s each way were busier than expected, although no where near the usual level pre-lockdown. The journey into Leeds was surprisingly pleasant with no restrictions on which seats to use and ample use of face coverings. The return trip was not as welcoming though with do not use signs on most seats which confused passengers and lead to some standing in the doorway. Leeds Station was also very much unwelcoming with the one way system and southern entrance closed which almost caused the train to be missed on the way back.
Based on today it doesn't look like the railway is ready to welcome back passngers.
Based on today it doesn't look like the railway is ready to welcome back passngers.
This information is clearly very out of date.
I'm not complying with out of date information; especially as complying with those instructions would make me more likely to be ill.
Killingworth
Established Member
Public transport is in an impossible situation. 2 metre separation is impractical in so many places and times. 1 metre is probably little better. As soons as it gets busy folks will revert to normal and many of us will do all the things we know we shouldn't. Even with the low number of passengers around at Piccadilly yesterday morming those waiting for the Liverpool - Norwich on Platform 13 clustered away from the end of the platform ensuring that when the train stopped most were positioned to board the rear two coaches. Some moved forward to the second but we who waited at the far end got lots of space in the lead coach.
I found Piccadily very virus safe, but a bit intimidating; it was as if I'd intruded into the preparations for a big event before opening time, and that I shouldn't be there. Lots of people for cleaning and keeping us in order. It's not a Northern station so that's largely down to national policy.
A few pictures - the gents I've left out, but normal convention is now compulsory!
northernchris
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I was on a Northern service today and on arrival at the terminus the conductor was stating that capacity is limited and only essential journeys where no alternative was available. With inaccurate and hostile message like this still being conveyed it's no wonder there's some people who are reluctant to return to the railway
I caught a TPE from Sheffield to Manchester which felt busy - compared to recently anyway. There certainly appeared to be plenty on the platform at Pic.
trainophile
Established Member
Sounds like the authoritarian recorded message boomed over the PA system at Birmingham New Street about half hourly last Monday. Made me feel guilty for even being there. (Sorry I know that isn't a Northern hub but seems a similar message is being put around the whole network.)
Please write to Northern about this; the company needs to ensure their staff are properly briefed. If I'd been there I'd have considered challenging them myself.
Not quite Northern, but I went a walk today through town, and this included using the station as a through-path from one side of the rails to the other. Whilst in the station, I noticed some Scotrail posters “we are providing transport for essential journeys for the key workers who are getting us through the pandemic” and “is your journey really necessary?”. There was also a message on the dot matrix “in accordance with government guidance, trains should be used for essential travel only, please only travel if necessary”.
Is this commonplace around the network, and is this still in-line with SCOTTISH guidance (which is very unclear and doesn’t make it obvious at all whether it’s essential only, or open to all).
Is this commonplace around the network, and is this still in-line with SCOTTISH guidance (which is very unclear and doesn’t make it obvious at all whether it’s essential only, or open to all).
northernchris
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I can't think of any other industry acting in such an anti-customer way! Although LNER and TPE are much more reasonable in their tone and advice
scotrail158713
Established Member
Disappointingly it was still in place at Prestonpans when I passed through it on Tuesday
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
I've laughed about that a few times - there is absolutely no need to enforce social distancing at urinals, as the "rule" already is that you don't use one directly adjacent to others and the vast majority of men already "comply" with it even if it means waiting.
I've seen some quite good arrangements at motorway services, though, one (forget which) has put up full height screens about 1' out from the wall which means one can use the facility in private and with lessened spread risk. COVID or no, this should be the case everywhere!
(The old Manc Picc layout with the potential not only to be to the side of someone but also opposite them would be a right nightmare!
)
Killingworth
Established Member
The latest update yesterday says Coronavirus (COVID-19): safer travel guidance for passengers
There's a subtle change where public transport now comes ahead of driving.
It will take railway operators a few days to get over their irritation with all the confusing instructions and produce new signage to cover this, before the next revision. Meanwhile 75% of those who used to travel to work are getting more established in their new routines of home working. We're also learning to shop local, and do ever more online. Cash is quickly being supplanted.
Public transport will not see the same levels of demand we'd all become used to - as many of us foresaw immediately lock down was threatened. Rail enthusiasts or not, there's a tide now running that Canute might recognise, except he knew it would certainly turn eventually.
I hope I'm wrong!! It will take a long time to recover given that most of us seem to be surviving reasonably well as we are. Most, but not a great many. It's currently deceptive. In 12 months the harsh realities will be easier to assess.
There's a subtle change where public transport now comes ahead of driving.
It will take railway operators a few days to get over their irritation with all the confusing instructions and produce new signage to cover this, before the next revision. Meanwhile 75% of those who used to travel to work are getting more established in their new routines of home working. We're also learning to shop local, and do ever more online. Cash is quickly being supplanted.
Public transport will not see the same levels of demand we'd all become used to - as many of us foresaw immediately lock down was threatened. Rail enthusiasts or not, there's a tide now running that Canute might recognise, except he knew it would certainly turn eventually.
I hope I'm wrong!! It will take a long time to recover given that most of us seem to be surviving reasonably well as we are. Most, but not a great many. It's currently deceptive. In 12 months the harsh realities will be easier to assess.
Killingworth
Established Member
I used the 8.14 from Dore. 2 of us boarded instead of the normal 40 or so, even on work from home Friday. One more joined at Stockport. 17, yes seventeen, of us left the 6 coach train at Piccadilly.
We have a very serious commuting problem nationwide, one in which public transport is just one factor among many.
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