Question: Number of staff onboard a train

pompeyfan · 24 May 2020

Horizon22 said:
I don't know about guards, but contingency OBSs down at Southern, generally get 2-3 days of training for content including (but not limited to) announcements, emergency scenarios and procedures, customer service, minimumal operational requirements (checking for assisted travel at platforms and ramps) and some bare bones route knowledge.

without drawing the attention of the red pen, I’d be interested to know the reasoning behind bare bones route knowledge, when you’ve got situations of Hastings OBS working services to places like Southampton for the first time ever. Also, what are qualified OBS trained and expected to do other than passenger assistance, occasionally announcements and revenue duties?

do they receive periodic assessments and competency training?

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Merle Haggard · 24 May 2020

Bletchleyite said:
Did they run 12-cars back then? Were they non-stop? South WCML platforms were only extended for 12-car operation in the mid to late 2000s, so far as I'm aware it was all 8-car before that.

The 12 cars run on the former loco-hauled services which called (various combinations) Leighton, Bletchley, MK, Northampton. I can't remember whether the LH trains were 10 coaches or 10 TSO + BSK+ FK/CK, but they platformed fully including the loco and I don't remember any platform extension at those stations at the time, except that Wolverton was extended soon afterwards. The bigger issue was 3 pans at 100 mph, which delayed the replacement of the loco-hailed sets for a while.

Interestingly, there were passenger complaints about the 321's lack of gangway connections between sets, and I think that this was a factor in their replacement. They were despatched to the east, but presumably no-one on EMR Electrics remembers any of that.

The DOO cameras and monitors all ended up in skips. You might have thought that they could have been re-used elsewhere.

Bletchleyite · 24 May 2020

Merle Haggard said:
The DOO cameras and monitors all ended up in skips. You might have thought that they could have been re-used elsewhere.

There's one set in the middle of the up slow platform at Berko, presumably to assist guards with the steeply curved platform. I assume that was a re-use?

How did they handle the then 8-car platforms at Bletchley and Leighton? In more recent years (before they were extended) 12.321 only served Bletchley where they started there. 12.350 was OK due to them having Unit Deselect.

Tom Quinne · 24 May 2020

Merle Haggard said:
12 car 321's on the "Grand Union Northampton Line" from 1989. And remember the very short-lived DOO attempt at the same time?

That’s correct, although guards still rode the train - drivers operated in DOO.

Merle Haggard · 24 May 2020

Bletchleyite said:
There's one set in the middle of the up slow platform at Berko, presumably to assist guards with the steeply curved platform. I assume that was a re-use?

How did they handle the then 8-car platforms at Bletchley and Leighton? In more recent years (before they were extended) 12.321 only served Bletchley where they started there. 12.350 was OK due to them having Unit Deselect.

You've got me thinking now, wracking my memory - it was 30 years ago. Maybe the 12 cars were only on the EUS-MK-NMP ones? Or maybe 'passengers for the other stations travel in front 8 coaches'? 12 cars were needed to replace the LH trains' capacity.
Once the LH services ceased I gave the 321s a try but decamped to HST/LH comfort from Wellingborough.

If you saw a driver trying to puts his head out of the cab window on a 321 you would understand why DOO wasn't likely to catch on.

Horizon22 · 24 May 2020

pompeyfan said:
without drawing the attention of the red pen, I’d be interested to know the reasoning behind bare bones route knowledge, when you’ve got situations of Hastings OBS working services to places like Southampton for the first time ever. Also, what are qualified OBS trained and expected to do other than passenger assistance, occasionally announcements and revenue duties?

do they receive periodic assessments and competency training?

Hastings OBS? Didn't think there was a depot there? Eastbourne has one. And I was talking about contingency OBS, not fully-fledged ones in a permanent role.

Merle Haggard · 24 May 2020

Tom Quinne said:
That’s correct, although guards still rode the train - drivers operated in DOO.

And this had one unfortunate effect - happened a few times in the hot summer of ?89. 1745 EUS-NMP pretty full 5 minutes to departure when it's discovered there's no guard. Passengers ejected from train onto already full slower one, driver closes doors and runs ECS to Northampton. Guaranteed to infuriate.

pompeyfan · 24 May 2020

Horizon22 said:
Hastings OBS? Didn't think there was a depot there? Eastbourne has one. And I was talking about contingency OBS, not fully-fledged ones in a permanent role.

oh I could have sworn an OBS I was talking to said Hastings, they definitely said they’d been launched from cover and had never been to Southampton.

I appreciate you were on about contingency but it got me wondering about full time staff.

Bletchleyite · 24 May 2020

Merle Haggard said:
You've got me thinking now, wracking my memory - it was 30 years ago. Maybe the 12 cars were only on the EUS-MK-NMP ones? Or maybe 'passengers for the other stations travel in front 8 coaches'? 12 cars were needed to replace the LH trains' capacity.

Even MKC I believe didn't have 12-car platforms before the recent rebuild. So far as I am aware, everything was 8 between 2001 and the mid/late 2000s upgrades.

Or thinking on...did it, and the recent upgrade was adding on the north end to substitute for the length lost to the bay?

Tom Quinne · 24 May 2020

MK had 12 car platforms expect the bay No1, before the remodelling.

Bletchleyite · 24 May 2020

Tom Quinne said:
MK had 12 car platforms expect the bay No1, before the remodelling.

Ah, I remembered wrong, then. I guess it was probably the case that only the ones doing WFJ-MKC-NMP were 12-car. It might have been acceptable to hang the back of manual-doored LHCS off platforms, but I very much doubt that has ever been acceptable with power doors.

During a strike a while ago I was aware of a 12-car 321 formation scheduled to call at Bletchley P4 southbound before that was extended (it was done quite late as it required trackwork changes), I don't know how that was handled, I suspect the back unit was locked out until departure from there.

ChiefPlanner · 24 May 2020

Bletchleyite said:
Did they run 12-cars back then? Were they non-stop? South WCML platforms were only extended for 12-car operation in the mid to late 2000s, so far as I'm aware it was all 8-car before that.

Yes they did - with limited stops - I know - I ran them.

Tom Quinne · 24 May 2020

ChiefPlanner said:
Yes they did - with limited stops - I know - I ran them.

I guarded them

ChiefPlanner · 24 May 2020

Tom Quinne said:
I guarded them

Well done you - we might have spoken sometime !

Merle Haggard · 24 May 2020

This has been quite a re-union!

ryan125hst · 12 Jul 2020

How are LNER services usually staffed (In non-COVID 19 times that is)?

According to a Freedom of Information request last year, the following numbers of staff are present on Azuma trains:

Attach files

WhatDoTheyKnow said:
5 coach 800/801 formation Minimum 3 – Maximum 4
9 coach 800/801 formation Minimum 5 - Maximum 6
10 coach 800/801+800/801 formation Minimum 6 – Maximum 8

For a nine coach formation, I'm thinking that's one for the Let's Eat Cafe Bar, one for the trolley service, one CSM per first class coach plus a chef for breakfast or evening meal offer? Presumably this is similar on a 225 and was the same on a HST? On a 5 coach formation that would be one for the Let's Eat Cafe Bar, one for the trolley service, one CSM and plus a chef or two CSM's?

I'd be interested in seeing a breakdown in the same format as craigybagel's post if anyone knows this?

bunnahabhain · 13 Jul 2020

ryan125hst said:
How are LNER services usually staffed (In non-COVID 19 times that is)?

According to a Freedom of Information request last year, the following numbers of staff are present on Azuma trains:

Attach files

For a nine coach formation, I'm thinking that's one for the Let's Eat Cafe Bar, one for the trolley service, one CSM per first class coach plus a chef for breakfast or evening meal offer? Presumably this is similar on a 225 and was the same on a HST? On a 5 coach formation that would be one for the Let's Eat Cafe Bar, one for the trolley service, one CSM and plus a chef or two CSM's?

I'd be interested in seeing a breakdown in the same format as craigybagel's post if anyone knows this?

One of those will surely be the Train Manager as well?

ryan125hst · 13 Jul 2020

bunnahabhain said:
One of those will surely be the Train Manager as well?

The question on the FOI asked for catering and staffing so i'm thinking not. I'm happy to be proven wrong though

cakefiend · 16 Jul 2020

ryan125hst said:
How are LNER services usually staffed (In non-COVID 19 times that is)?

According to a Freedom of Information request last year, the following numbers of staff are present on Azuma trains:

Attach files

For a nine coach formation, I'm thinking that's one for the Let's Eat Cafe Bar, one for the trolley service, one CSM per first class coach plus a chef for breakfast or evening meal offer? Presumably this is similar on a 225 and was the same on a HST? On a 5 coach formation that would be one for the Let's Eat Cafe Bar, one for the trolley service, one CSM and plus a chef or two CSM's?

I'd be interested in seeing a breakdown in the same format as craigybagel's post if anyone knows this?

It’s usually one for the bar, one for the trolley, and the balance in first class (plus a chef, if there’s one).

When I worked there (pre Azuma) you were meant to have a minimum of three catering staff for a train, but running with only one or two wasn’t unknown either.

northken · 16 Jul 2020

I've once come across 6 members of staff on a Severn Beach line service in the morning peak: one driver, one guard, two ticket examiners, and two RPIs. This wasn't a sting operation either; the RPIs were just offering to sell tickets, not even checking them. All in all somewhat excessive for a 3 coach train arriving into barriered Temple Meads.

ryan125hst · 17 Jul 2020

cakefiend said:
It’s usually one for the bar, one for the trolley, and the balance in first class (plus a chef, if there’s one).

When I worked there (pre Azuma) you were meant to have a minimum of three catering staff for a train, but running with only one or two wasn’t unknown either.

Not a bad guess on from me then. :smile:

One or two catering staff seems very short staffed indeed!

northken said:
I've once come across 6 members of staff on a Severn Beach line service in the morning peak: one driver, one guard, two ticket examiners, and two RPIs. This wasn't a sting operation either; the RPIs were just offering to sell tickets, not even checking them. All in all somewhat excessive for a 3 coach train arriving into barriered Temple Meads.

Was there a reason for this level of ticket checking? Presumably the service wasn't staffed like this every day?

northken · 17 Jul 2020

ryan125hst said:
Was there a reason for this level of ticket checking? Presumably the service wasn't staffed like this every day?

I think the ticket examiners were rostered and the RPIs were just there coincidentally, having joined at Stapleton Road. I have seen three ticket examiners who looked like they were rostered to all be there - one in each coach.

Of course it may have just been these odd occasions, but it was quite a contrast to a 12 coach DOO Thameslink, and it did leave me pondering at what point putting ticket machines in becomes feasible.

185143 · 22 Jul 2020

northken said:
I think the ticket examiners were rostered and the RPIs were just there coincidentally, having joined at Stapleton Road. I have seen three ticket examiners who looked like they were rostered to all be there - one in each coach.

Of course it may have just been these odd occasions, but it was quite a contrast to a 12 coach DOO Thameslink, and it did leave me pondering at what point putting ticket machines in becomes feasible.

Especially when a lot of the fares they collect will be less than 2 quid!

Question: Number of staff onboard a train

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