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Engines needing to be pre-heated

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Mitchell Hurd

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Could it have been a case of all engines bar one, were turned off (the remaining engine providing saloon lighting and heating, and running the pre heaters to the other engines when required)?

Good point. I'm not sure entirely although the revs dropped down for probably a minute or 2 to the same speed of a Class 172. Same when / just before they switch to electric mode, particularly when stationary.
 
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mpthomson

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The pre-heating of the whole engine block is common practice on railway locomotives and multiple units, it is not comparable to the use of glow plugs in a diesel car.
Glow plugs powered for less than a minute from the vehicle battery wont warm the engine block to any significant degree. They assist in starting by promoting full combustion of the fuel, not by pre heating the whole engine.

In very cold climates, diesel road vehicles DO need the engine block to be pre-heated for reliable starting. They are commonly fitted with "block heaters" that use mains electricity to heat the engine. Seldom used in the UK but common in polar regions. Better designs incorporate an interlock to prevent driving away whilst still plugged in. Some types also charge the battery.

Commonly fitted on Volvos/Skoda etc cars as well as an option on mainland Europe.
 

hwl

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Could it have been a case of all engines bar one, were turned off (the remaining engine providing saloon lighting and heating, and running the pre heaters to the other engines when required)?
Each raft can supply upto 120kW of auxiliary loads and they are designed to run on the smallest number of engines possible (unlike Voyagers etc) hence 1 engine should be enough for a 5 car set most of the time and if there aren't extreme temperatures and the interior is already in the temp range then may be even a 9 car?
 

broadgage

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I remember seeing block heaters on the shelf in a Shell Shop in Kirkenes. Obviously a fit yourself option.

Many years ago when I was on PW on of my colleagues had started out as a fireman at Reading (WR). He recalled manning the standing pilot one night - driver shut the engine down so that they could get some ZZZs, and when they came to the engine was too cold to start. Tow back to the shed required. Did this sort of thing actually happen?

Pat

Yes it certainly could happen, but an engine shut down for only part of a night shift would normally retain sufficient warmth to start again. If however the engine was in poor condition and hard to start even under ideal conditions then it is more likely. Or if the batteries were in poor condition then starting even a warm engine would be doubtful, and starting of an even partly cold one unlikely.
Other factors that would make starting problematic could include an engine that was already cold when shutdown (not used for days, started with difficulty by the fitters in the shed, then driven a short distance and shut down again) or of course extreme cold weather rather than normal winter conditions.
 

Mitchell Hurd

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Each raft can supply upto 120kW of auxiliary loads and they are designed to run on the smallest number of engines possible (unlike Voyagers etc) hence 1 engine should be enough for a 5 car set most of the time and if there aren't extreme temperatures and the interior is already in the temp range then may be even a 9 car?

I forgot to mention it was a 9-car IET :).
 

broadgage

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The nominally electric 9 car IETs have a single engine, and this engine is stated to be sufficient to provide hotel power for the whole train, or indeed to move the train at very much reduced performance.
These single engines are intended for use when the OHLE fails, not for regular use on non electrified routes. This single engine is of the same or very closely similar specification to the multiple engines on the bi-mode units.
 

ryan125hst

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The nominally electric 9 car IETs have a single engine, and this engine is stated to be sufficient to provide hotel power for the whole train, or indeed to move the train at very much reduced performance.
These single engines are intended for use when the OHLE fails, not for regular use on non electrified routes. This single engine is of the same or very closely similar specification to the multiple engines on the bi-mode units.

Are there any restrictions if the train needs to be moved under power with the single engine? For example, does the catering equipment need to be switched off, or the air conditioning output reduced?
 

Taunton

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The Warships and Westerns had preheaters, I don't know if other types such as English Electric did. The WR hydraulics did seem to be free of the huge smoke clouds (and sometimes flames) that you seem to get from these other types on cold starting. The noise you can hear from inside an otherwise shut down Hydraulic is the preheater. Bear in mind that hydraulic diesels were physically smaller but ran twice as fast to give the same power.

The USA/Canada had a different approach, and didn't shut down, the diesel would be run for weeks, often well away from base where they were just left to thrum away overnight. Part of this was the coolant systems on US diesels were long prone, until recent times, to have coolant leaks, to the extent that it was not cost effective to use anti-freeze, so they used plain water, topped up daily (sometimes more), and much of their territory has temperatures way under freezing in winter. Idling fuel was cheaper than anti-freeze in the quantities leaked. If the loco does have to be shut down there's quite an elaborate water drainage procedure to be done (it's the first thing that base does going out to a derailed and overturned loco in winter, drain the coolant water to avoid it freezing and ruining the engine block). The old longstanding GM 567 engine from the 1940s-60s, supposedly unburstable, was particularly prone to this, and the inside of the engine room, despite drain holes, is commonly awash, with of course a film of lubricating oil on top making footsteps inside treacherous.

It's very difficult in such a large piece of metal with great temperature differentials between shut down and running to keep everything fluid tight, which is why these issues arise. A further startup problem is lubricating oil which has leaked down past the piston rings into the cylinders as things cool down, this can be the cause of some of the extreme smoke on starting, as it is burned off in the cylinders. Broadly, black smoke for lube, grey smoke for unburned fuel.

Same approach in Russia, where also the city bus garages (and military bases apparently) don't shut down the engines in winter, go past them overnight and 100 buses are rumbling away to themselves out in the open. Part of why they've always liked trolleybuses and trams more, no engine starting problems with them in winter (ice on the wires is a separate discussion).
 

Merle Haggard

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The problem of coolant resulting from expansion/contraction wasn't limited to operation where there were extreme temperature variations - B.R. Class 47 were also afflicted. On Automotive trains conveying unprotected wagons, leaking coolant landing on cars and contaminating their paintwork was an issue. It was explained by our Engineering colleagues that, because the coolant pipes and hoses were of large diameter, the comparatively large variations that resulted over temperature changes was beyond the ability of the hose clamps to remain tight - they were stretched beyond their elastic limit when hot and therefore didn't remain tight after cooling. The ever-resourceful Tinsley engineering solution was to fit 200 gallon radiator header tanks, which at least reduced failures due to 'low coolant'. It seems that, although anti-freeze was not used, for the reasons Taunton gives above, corrosion inhibitor was added to the coolant which explained the damage. RfD class 47s were left running in cold weather over weekends and holidays to avoid frost damage but there was also some arrangement that closed shutters to retain heat inside the loco as much as possible.
Presumably, similar problems occurred in other types of loco.
 

Pugland53

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I'm not sure if this is relevant to this thread but when I got on the 16:22 from Swansea back to Swindon at around 15:40 (was allowed out the cold drizzly rain), changing for Didcot Parkwaya, on the 09/03/20 (last train trip it was before now) the engines were turned off - this was just before I got on.

I thought it was therefore gonna get cold onboard - nope, the heating was still going even though the engines were turned off. Took me by compl Handy if stranded anytime if the engines get turned off if definitely going to be stuck for a while Engines were turned on at nearly 15:55.

Is this a way of pre-heating the IET's? With most DMU's (older than the IET's of course) it's either leave the engines on, use fuel and cause pollution or turn them off but everything's off and provide an uncomfortable environment onboard.

If this was requested when the 80x stock was ordered then that's fantastic of course!

Or do these have emergency batteries for hotel power?

I know this was a good few months ago but I only noticed this thread like today I think.


The reason for this is the driver has put the train in 'turnaround' mode, where on a 5 car one of the three engines keep running to provide power etc (two engines on a 10 car) and on a 9 car two engines are kept running. The new driver will restart all the engines before the journey commences.
 

Mitchell Hurd

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The reason for this is the driver has put the train in 'turnaround' mode, where on a 5 car one of the three engines keep running to provide power etc (two engines on a 10 car) and on a 9 car two engines are kept running. The new driver will restart all the engines before the journey commences.

Thank you - interesting. That's much more useful than the previous high-speed modern diesels - Adelantes, Voyagers and Meridians where you'd have to leave every engine running. It's almost like a locomotive or HST really in a way. Well, Coach J was off (that was where my seat reservation was) :).
 

hwl

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Thank you - interesting. That's much more useful than the previous high-speed modern diesels - Adelantes, Voyagers and Meridians where you'd have to leave every engine running. It's almost like a locomotive or HST really in a way. Well, Coach J was off (that was where my seat reservation was) :).
To keep control systems simple the previous generation of stock had very limited auxiliary power cross feed opportunity between vehicles. Porterbrook and Wabtec found it slightly harder than anticipated to get the 769s working with their existing 750V DC power bus but multiple engines.
 

edwin_m

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The USA/Canada had a different approach, and didn't shut down, the diesel would be run for weeks, often well away from base where they were just left to thrum away overnight. Part of this was the coolant systems on US diesels were long prone, until recent times, to have coolant leaks, to the extent that it was not cost effective to use anti-freeze, so they used plain water, topped up daily (sometimes more), and much of their territory has temperatures way under freezing in winter. Idling fuel was cheaper than anti-freeze in the quantities leaked. If the loco does have to be shut down there's quite an elaborate water drainage procedure to be done (it's the first thing that base does going out to a derailed and overturned loco in winter, drain the coolant water to avoid it freezing and ruining the engine block). The old longstanding GM 567 engine from the 1940s-60s, supposedly unburstable, was particularly prone to this, and the inside of the engine room, despite drain holes, is commonly awash, with of course a film of lubricating oil on top making footsteps inside treacherous.
What was it Ed Burckhardt said about the engine rooms of British locos being awash and GM ones being clean?
 

Dunfanaghy Rd

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What was it Ed Burckhardt said about the engine rooms of British locos being awash and GM ones being clean?
Just so. I think he failed to understand the difference due to continuous running. In EWS it became the rule to shut down to save fuel, which led to fitting start-stop kit (did it ever work properly?).
I thought the problem with anti-freeze was due to its tendency to attack the seals. 66s ran on plain water at first, later using something called NACO, if memory serves.
It was possible to keep the engine bay clean. The first time I was shown through a 59 (one of Mendip Rail's) all I could see in the engine bay was a fine layer of dust - no oil at all. Mind you they were cossetted.
Pat
 

37201xoIM

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Interesting discussion. That accords with my memories of being struck / impressed by travelling in the 1980s in West Germany and noting how quick crews were to shut down 218s and similar diesels even at longer station stops.

Meanwhile I think I recall that Martin Walker fitted 55022 Royal Scots Grey with some sort of pre-heating arrangement, and that was successful in the sort of thing described above (i.e. protecting the engines) - obviously Deltic engines are a little like Germanic ones in that they are small and high-revving... and complex!

And yes, something like a 37 does indeed need the oil pump running for a while and the engine can only be started when oil pressure has reached a certain level - but no pre-heating.
 

Richard Scott

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Interesting discussion. That accords with my memories of being struck / impressed by travelling in the 1980s in West Germany and noting how quick crews were to shut down 218s and similar diesels even at longer station stops.

Meanwhile I think I recall that Martin Walker fitted 55022 Royal Scots Grey with some sort of pre-heating arrangement, and that was successful in the sort of thing described above (i.e. protecting the engines) - obviously Deltic engines are a little like Germanic ones in that they are small and high-revving... and complex!

And yes, something like a 37 does indeed need the oil pump running for a while and the engine can only be started when oil pressure has reached a certain level - but no pre-heating.
You could start a 37 without bringing the oil pressure up first as just need to hold in engine start button until oil pressure builds up enough to allow engine to run but it would be mechanical cruelty. Saw someone do it with a 31 once. Sulzers rely on triple pump which gets little oil pressure so rely on engine oil pump to get pressure up before engine will run. Some preserved locos are fitted with preheaters to avoid cold winter starts causing premature wear and, in the case of EE locos, fogging out the local area - see here to see what an EE can do
- plenty more of those on there.
 

MikePJ

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I've worked in Antarctica a few times, and the larger vehicles we used all had preheaters. The most common type was the Webasto hydronic heater, which runs on diesel and a small amount of electrical power (from the vehicle battery) to run a blower. The Webastos produce hot water quite quickly, and are used to warm the engine coolant. A typically start-up sequence for one of the vehicles was 30 minutes running the Webasto, then start the engine, then leave it idling for another 30 minutes. All the vehicles were "diesels" but were in fact fuelled with jet fuel (kerosene) as at low temperatures diesel turns waxy. Kerosene works fine but you lose 30% of the rated power if I remember correctly! Anyway, the Webasto preheaters were great and I presume that similar systems could be fitted to locomotive engines to warm the engine blocks without needing a shore supply.
 

ryan125hst

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The reason for this is the driver has put the train in 'turnaround' mode, where on a 5 car one of the three engines keep running to provide power etc (two engines on a 10 car) and on a 9 car two engines are kept running. The new driver will restart all the engines before the journey commences.

Is the engine/engines used to provide power rotated by the driver (eg. running the engines furthest from the buffer stops), automatically via the Train Management Computer or the same engine/engines each time?
 

43066

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Thank you - interesting. That's much more useful than the previous high-speed modern diesels - Adelantes, Voyagers and Meridians where you'd have to leave every engine running. It's almost like a locomotive or HST really in a way. Well, Coach J was off (that was where my seat reservation was) :).

Voyagers have a similar mechanism. “Station mode” shuts down most engines, leaving one or two running to provide hotel power.
 

43066

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Will someone tell XC the next time they try to gas everyone on the platforms at New St? I have never, ever seen that mode used.
VT had theirs modified XC didn't...

Thanks. I hadn’t realised the XC sets hadn’t been modified.

Other reasons it isn’t alway used are short turnarounds, as engines are prone to failing to restart, and if an attachment is about to take place, as attaching to a unit in station mode throws up spurious error messages on the TMS.
 
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gimmea50anyday

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No, there’s no engine pre heating on a 185. Hence the smoke when started

Eco mode merely shuts down one of the engines once the train is at speed. Driver sets a form of cruise control called speed set which holds the current speed and shuts down one of the engines using the remaining two engines to maintain that speed. The engine will be restarted by the driver when the train reaches the next station or when otherwise stationary
 

37057

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No, there’s no engine pre heating on a 185. Hence the smoke when started

Eco mode merely shuts down one of the engines once the train is at speed. Driver sets a form of cruise control called speed set which holds the current speed and shuts down one of the engines using the remaining two engines to maintain that speed. The engine will be restarted by the driver when the train reaches the next station or when otherwise stationary

They are fitted with pre-heaters. They're supplied by the three phase system so run as required (<40°C) when on shore supply at certain depots (and when at least one engine is running). There are separate sockets that power the pre-heaters alone for the outstations but I don't think anywhere has the equipment for them. You'll know when an engines cold when the 'low cooling water temp' indicator lamp on the desk is illuminated - cab has to be occupied to see it.
 

heedfan

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Are there any restrictions if the train needs to be moved under power with the single engine? For example, does the catering equipment need to be switched off, or the air conditioning output reduced?

For 801s, some features will drop out if the set is running in limited traction mode (eg, running on the single donkey engine). I believe passenger aircon and plug supply is reduced amongst some other things. They aren't switched off manually, they just drop out automatically when traction is required. Some driving features are also limited, such as the wash/slow speed.
 

supervc-10

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A good friend of mine lives in Ottawa but is from further north in Ontario. He has a block heater in his Corolla, and has a plug socket outside his house on his driveway. He said it's a little unusual in Ottawa (and the rest of Southern Ontario) but further north where he grew up everything has it. The farm vehicles he had would be unable to start otherwise.
 
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