Drop Out Rate for Trainee Train Drivers

Louby · 21 Jul 2020

don't be put off, yes it takes a few days , don't forget the paper wrk you have passed on for
previous assessments to get where you are is the same , they have invested alot of money in you, they don't want you to fail, yes some can't cut it but it's rare, and you will not be put forward until YOU feel up to it, but don't think that's it , you will be assessed just as deep the following two yrs after that, it's hard work, but the reward is worth it

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Dynamonic · 21 Jul 2020

The whole recruitment process is geared towards seeing if you’re capable of handling the training, so if you’ve made it through recruitment, you should be capable of the training too.

Many of you reading this thread will be daunted by the scale of assessments and expectations required of you in both training school and in your post-qualified career. It is very intense, and for good reason, but you really should not worry about that for now.

You will likely be astounded by the amount of knowledge you will find yourself obtaining in training school. Everyone on your course will be in the same boat as you too, and you will find yourself forming your own support unit with each other over the likes of WhatsApp, asking each other questions every evening.
Your trainer will just be a phone call or text message away too.

You will tackle every assessment together, with the support of everyone on your course, and your trainer too.

I remember us all nervously sitting in the classroom at the end of our 10-11 weeks, as one by one we were called into another room for our final rules feedback session.
If there were any mild grey areas in your written rules, this is where your assessor would verbally get that extra bit of icing, sugar and cherry on top out of you, just to make sure you’ve grasped EVERYTHING!

After this, you’re told your mark, get a good firm handshake, and are told to return to the classroom, where everyone was anxiously waiting to see how you got on.
Everyone cheers as you walk in with a relieved grin on your face, and then the same is repeated for the next person.

The payoff for all your endless hard work is hugely rewarding, and is well worth the effort! You will be so proud of yourselves, and each other!

Don’t be put off by all the assessments, because you will get through them, and you will be glad you put all the work in for many years to come!

Stigy · 21 Jul 2020

martin2345uk said:
Definitely not for all TOCs/FOCs.

I’ll Second that.

We have several “big” assessments throughout the training and then the passout. We have loads of knowledge check papers throughout the classroom training which are still tests, but not pass/fail as such (though there’s still the usual 91% pass mark, if you don’t get that you’re debriefed rather than kicked off the course). The “big” tests are the same passmark, but you only get two attempts, this includes the sim assessment and final passout.

Don’t get me wrong, it’s not a walk in the park, but there’s only a couple of face to face verbal tests involved during training with us.

LCC106 · 21 Jul 2020

prit123 said:
thanks... i hope we can use pc to type cos my writing will resemble foreign characters once i am done with writing one page lol.

Tip I learned from this forum many moons ago... use capital letters. Easier to read.

Slimjim, I agree. Definitely some tinted spectacles going on here!

Different TOCs do things differently. Having use of a sim is not always an advantage when it’s traction you don’t sign either. some TOCs pay others to use their sims.

martin2345uk · 21 Jul 2020

I’d have liked to have had use of a sim if only really for out of course working; as it is the only way I’m gonna get actual experience of, say, single line working is when one shift I get stopped and the signaller says “Hi driver, single line working is in operation” and I’ll be like “oh.. great”.

Louby · 21 Jul 2020

martin2345uk said:
I’d have liked to have had use of a sim if only really for out of course working; as it is the only way I’m gonna get actual experience of, say, single line working is when one shift I get stopped and the signaller says “Hi driver, single line working is in operation” and I’ll be like “oh.. great”.

the signaller explains everything in great detail, also with maintenance, you get trained to isolate but your not allowed to touch anything without authorisation from them

Stigy · 21 Jul 2020

LCC106 said:
Tip I learned from this forum many moons ago... use capital letters. Easier to read.

Slimjim, I agree. Definitely some tinted spectacles going on here!

Different TOCs do things differently. Having use of a sim is not always an advantage when it’s traction you don’t sign either. some TOCs pay others to use their sims.

I only ever write in capitals...:comes from years of writing in notebooks. I can still only just read my own writing though. One reason I don’t make many notes. Thank god it’s all electronic for us!

DaveTM · 22 Jul 2020

This thread has been so interesting, and worrying. I'm a driver for a southern TOC. I drive to the same rulebook as drivers in all the other TOCs. On some of the routes I sign I share the track with drivers from other TOCs. So why the hell was I assessed differently to drivers in other TOCs? Whether you take your car driving test in Wells, Tonbridge or Penrith, the criteria you are judged on and the pass standards are the same. Why is there not one standard across the whole mainline railway industry?

A question to the older drivers who know how things worked in more than one depot before privatisation... Is this a new thing as a result of the fragmentation of the railway, or did every depot have its own standards back in the days of BR?

My training had a simple split between (a) Rules/traction in the classroom, (b) handling with a Driver Instructor, and (c) route learning.

After (a) we had a multiple choice test to test rules/traction. I've never heard of anybody failing that.

After (b) and (c) we had a 4/5 day initial competency assessment (ICA) with a Competency Manager, for which you get two attempts. All routes are driven, by day and by night. Time is spent doing booking on, prepping, depot shunting, mainline driving, oral questioning about rules and traction, using a cardboard model railway to demonstrate knowledge on emergency protection and signalling, etc. Whilst every trainee driver's experience is different, we were all tested against our TOC's written list of competency requirements. I know of one driver who failed his ICA twice and was kicked out, and another driver who failed first time (due to COVID I don't know if he has retaken, but my fingers are very much crossed as his failure was due to over-cautious driving and he is a very sensible bloke who I'm quite happy to be sharing rails with).

What I will say to @mstrwvr (the original poster) is that, if you have passed the selection process to start the course, you are very very able to pass the course. And the further you progress through your course the more your TOC have invested money in you; so the less they want to fail you.

Dynamonic · 22 Jul 2020

There’ll likely soon be a more standardised training programme for all Trainee Drivers across the board once the new Train Driver Apprenticeship spreads it’s wings.
Training standardisation is one of it’s aims.

I know all recent courses at my TOC have had their trainees enrolled into the apprenticeship scheme.

The issue for some people though is that it does introduce Level 2 qualification requirements to get into the Driving grade, (Maths, English and ICT at GCSE Grade C / Grade 4 or above).
Some TOCs may support you in achieving some of those qualifications though.

Train Drivers Academy | Rail Delivery Group

One of the industry strategic plans being led by RDG is to improve the recruitment, training and the management of train drivers. The most effective way of making the change is to

www.raildeliverygroup.com

Horizon22 · 22 Jul 2020

Dynamonic said:
There’ll likely soon be a more standardised training programme for all Trainee Drivers across the board once the new Train Driver Apprenticeship spreads it’s wings.
Training standardisation is one of it’s aims.

I know all recent courses at my TOC have had their trainees enrolled into the apprenticeship scheme.
The issue for some people though is that it does introduce Level 2 qualification requirements to get into the Driving grade, (Maths, English and ICT at GCSE Grade C or above).

Train Drivers Academy | Rail Delivery Group

One of the industry strategic plans being led by RDG is to improve the recruitment, training and the management of train drivers. The most effective way of making the change is to

www.raildeliverygroup.com

Frankly, with applications sky-high for driving, passes for core subjects at GCSE really should be a no-brainer as a requirement.

the sniper · 22 Jul 2020

Dynamonic said:
The issue for some people though is that it does introduce Level 2 qualification requirements to get into the Driving grade, (Maths, English and ICT at GCSE Grade C or above).
Some TOCs may support you in achieving some of those qualifications though.

Don't all TOCs allow you to get them as part of the course, if you haven't got them already? At least some do.

Dynamonic · 22 Jul 2020

the sniper said:
Don't all TOCs allow you to get them as part of the course, if you haven't got them already? At least some do.

My TOC currently supports you in getting the ICT qualification.

43066 · 22 Jul 2020

SlimJim1694 said:
It's not as bad as people are making out. Don't forget you will already have been given plenty of opportunity to learn the stuff you get assessed on at the end, and will have already passed assessments on it. There will be nothing in there you don't already know. I think some people who already have the luxury of having a key might be looking back on their own part six through tinted spectacles and embellishing tales of how hard it is. You've only got to stick your head round the door of any drivers mess room to see we are not rocket scientists. Don't let these accounts put you off... if you put the work in you will pass.

Yep, people really are hamming it up a a bit!

Dynamonic said:
There’ll likely soon be a more standardised training programme for all Trainee Drivers across the board once the new Train Driver Apprenticeship spreads it’s wings.
Training standardisation is one of it’s aims.

I know all recent courses at my TOC have had their trainees enrolled into the apprenticeship scheme.

The issue for some people though is that it does introduce Level 2 qualification requirements to get into the Driving grade, (Maths, English and ICT at GCSE Grade C / Grade 4 or above).
Some TOCs may support you in achieving some of those qualifications though.

Train Drivers Academy | Rail Delivery Group

One of the industry strategic plans being led by RDG is to improve the recruitment, training and the management of train drivers. The most effective way of making the change is to

www.raildeliverygroup.com

Have to say I’m deeply suspicious of the motives of this. Not sure it’s anything other then an attempt to begin to bring private training into the industry (which the candidates might well end up paying for). It’s hardly necessary to put everyone through an “apprenticeship” when most people coming into the job will be career changers.

Horizon22 said:
Frankly, with applications sky-high for driving, passes for core subjects at GCSE really should be a no-brainer as a requirement.

I tend to agree.

mstrwvr · 22 Jul 2020

DaveTM said:
This thread has been so interesting, and worrying. I'm a driver for a southern TOC. I drive to the same rulebook as drivers in all the other TOCs. On some of the routes I sign I share the track with drivers from other TOCs. So why the hell was I assessed differently to drivers in other TOCs? Whether you take your car driving test in Wells, Tonbridge or Penrith, the criteria you are judged on and the pass standards are the same. Why is there not one standard across the whole mainline railway industry?

A question to the older drivers who know how things worked in more than one depot before privatisation... Is this a new thing as a result of the fragmentation of the railway, or did every depot have its own standards back in the days of BR?

My training had a simple split between (a) Rules/traction in the classroom, (b) handling with a Driver Instructor, and (c) route learning.

After (a) we had a multiple choice test to test rules/traction. I've never heard of anybody failing that.

After (b) and (c) we had a 4/5 day initial competency assessment (ICA) with a Competency Manager, for which you get two attempts. All routes are driven, by day and by night. Time is spent doing booking on, prepping, depot shunting, mainline driving, oral questioning about rules and traction, using a cardboard model railway to demonstrate knowledge on emergency protection and signalling, etc. Whilst every trainee driver's experience is different, we were all tested against our TOC's written list of competency requirements. I know of one driver who failed his ICA twice and was kicked out, and another driver who failed first time (due to COVID I don't know if he has retaken, but my fingers are very much crossed as his failure was due to over-cautious driving and he is a very sensible bloke who I'm quite happy to be sharing rails with).

What I will say to @mstrwvr (the original poster) is that, if you have passed the selection process to start the course, you are very very able to pass the course. And the further you progress through your course the more your TOC have invested money in you; so the less they want to fail you.

Thanks, this is very helpful.

S-Car-Go · 22 Jul 2020

Dynamonic said:
I know all recent courses at my TOC have had their trainees enrolled into the apprenticeship scheme.

The issue for some people though is that it does introduce Level 2 qualification requirements to get into the Driving grade, (Maths, English and ICT at GCSE Grade C / Grade 4 or above).
Some TOCs may support you in achieving some of those qualifications though.

From what our training group has experienced of the apprenticeship, if you don't have A-C in GCSE Maths, English and ICT, you are obliged to do a week's top-up of classes and sit exams for which you get a City & Guilds qualification. Already had the Maths and English, so was exempt from those. Only had to do 2 days of ICT classes and C&G exam.

I'm alright with learning new skills for their own sake but some of our training group were quite stressed about covering subjects they haven't done since they were 16. It's unsurprising some are hostile to the apprenticeship considering that:
(a) the ICT was assessed on how well you know your way around Word, Excel, PowerPoint and Access. Not really relevant in the cab.
(b) we weren't told we had to do an apprenticeship in the job description/application (we were the first to do it, subsequent groups were told).
(c) is it possible to top up Maths and English skills to the required level with 2 days of classes?
(d) Most of it seems to be an equivalence course of box ticking. Once you've completed a certain level of training/handling with your DI, they do a review and check what you've experienced and learnt.
(e) It's a way for the TOC to claw back a few thousand £s per employee from the government levy.

43066 · 22 Jul 2020

S-Car-Go said:
From what our training group has experienced of the apprenticeship, if you don't have A-C in GCSE Maths, English and ICT, you are obliged to do a week's top-up of classes and sit exams for which you get a City & Guilds qualification. Already had the Maths and English, so was exempt from those. Only had to do 2 days of ICT classes and C&G exam.

I'm alright with learning new skills for their own sake but some of our training group were quite stressed about covering subjects they haven't done since they were 16. It's unsurprising some are hostile to the apprenticeship considering that:
(a) the ICT was assessed on how well you know your way around Word, Excel, PowerPoint and Access. Not really relevant in the cab.
(b) we weren't told we had to do an apprenticeship in the job description/application (we were the first to do it, subsequent groups were told).
(c) is it possible to top up Maths and English skills to the required level with 2 days of classes?
(d) Most of it seems to be an equivalence course of box ticking. Once you've completed a certain level of training/handling with your DI, they do a review and check what you've experienced and learnt.
(e) It's a way for the TOC to claw back a few thousand £s per employee from the government levy.

Can they still claim the government funds for people who already have qualifications equal to or in excess of the GCSE requirement? I hope so, because otherwise they might start discriminating against better qualified applicants at the application stage, which would be absolutely ridiculous.

peakNed · 22 Jul 2020

43066 said:
Have to say I’m deeply suspicious of the motives of this. Not sure it’s anything other then an attempt to begin to bring private training into the industry (which the candidates might well end up paying for). It’s hardly necessary to put everyone through an “apprenticeship” when most people coming into the job will be career changers.

Likewise, although didn't Rail Operations Group try to set up a 'pay for your own training' school a few years ago?

43066 · 22 Jul 2020

peakNed said:
Likewise, although didn't Rail Operations Group try to set up a 'pay for your own training' school a few years ago?

Not sure, but you may well me right. Wouldn’t surprise me in the slightest as I’ve never met anyone with anything good to say about ROG.

BenjaminButton · 22 Jul 2020

Speaking of qualifications, does anyone know if the ECDL ICT Level 2 qualification is acceptable as an alternative to the City and Guilds ICT Level 2 qualification?

Dynamonic · 22 Jul 2020

BenjaminButton said:
Speaking of qualifications, does anyone know if the ECDL ICT Level 2 qualification is acceptable as an alternative to the City and Guilds ICT Level 2 qualification?

It’s officially accredited by OFQUAL as a GCSE equivalent, so you should be fine with that.

Bayum · 22 Jul 2020

SLV said:
A driver gets 64% in an assessment and him eventually going is harsh? There are set processes, he will have been rebriefed and reassessed, if he still can’t meet the standard what do you think they should do?

If it’s the online type of assessment I think it is it’s a shocking score and he shouldn’t have been out on his own with such a poor score - sounds dangerous. Granted we only have a snippet of information, my TOC would give longer than 2 weeks and would look to redeploy as the first option.

OP - to answer your question firstly every TOC will differ. The majority of train drivers roles are now under apprenticeships with a really solid training plan/framework, which is audited externally to insure consistency of delivery and designed to get you to where they you need to be. Can only speak for the 2 TOCs I have experience of but this has always been the case anyway, a lot of time and money will be invested into you wherever you go and you are recruited as ultimately there is a train plan to meet. the material and support is there, as others have said above you do have to put the work in.

While you often see a lot of bitching about the driver recruitment tests on here they are designed to check you are up to the standard. I have known one or two people drop out in the first year as not for them, eg didn’t like shifts/depot environment or responsibility - it’s usually people that were earning similar money in their previous job.
Ultimately - if you put the work in and apply yourself you will be fine

Plus, one of the points mentioned that a lot of this scoring can be biased, based on what management want them to show, as explained at the beginning of the thread.to

Timpg · 22 Jul 2020

S-Car-Go said:
Just came across this thread. I'm in the same boat (I would say train but haven't been in 1 of those in months!). Barely 20 hours into mainline handling before lockdown happened.

The assessments do sound monumental. But from what has been said, they assess you when you're ready. Bit like they don't put you in a cab for handling until you've passed all your rules & traction first.

Has your TOC given you anything to revise (questions, material, etc) while you're at home? All we have is our classroom notes, and DVDs of the core route.

no I never received any revision material just got my classroom notes. But to be fair I pretty much filled up an a4 note pad full of easier to understand notes and hand drawn diagrams and pictures which I keep in my drivers bag for reference if needed.
I won’t lie it hasn’t been easy to revise with two kids off school, one of which is autistic lol!!
I also had to do this apprenticeship thing so a lot of time has been spent plugging away at the online tasks and assessments in order to pass the maths English and ICT.
im hoping to return on Monday if all goes to plan.
Have you had any hint of a return yet mate? All the best mate

S-Car-Go · 23 Jul 2020

Timpg said:
im hoping to return on Monday if all goes to plan.
Have you had any hint of a return yet mate? All the best mate

I guess lockdown has been difficult for everyone in different ways. Horrendous hayfever allergies for me this year! Sounds promising for you to soon return, all the best with that. We have had no word as to when the return will be. Return to work plans are being made but AFAIK no agreements are in place to implement them. Back in May, I thought my DI was joking when he said it would be months before returning. I think he'll be proven right.

Unstoppable · 23 Jul 2020

Stigy said:
I’ll Second that.

We have several “big” assessments throughout the training and then the passout. We have loads of knowledge check papers throughout the classroom training which are still tests, but not pass/fail as such (though there’s still the usual 91% pass mark, if you don’t get that you’re debriefed rather than kicked off the course). The “big” tests are the same passmark, but you only get two attempts, this includes the sim assessment and final passout.

Don’t get me wrong, it’s not a walk in the park, but there’s only a couple of face to face verbal tests involved during training with us.

What do the face to face verbal tests involve?

Stigy · 23 Jul 2020

Unstoppable said:
What do the face to face verbal tests involve?

it varies between company, but
we have what are known as ‘interim’ tests (which are the only actual pass/fail tests other than the sim assessment and final passout week). Intern 2 is verbal and is basically a trainer asking you questions for between 2 and 3 hours. You’ll be asked to draw diagrams or use the sim kit (basically laminated pieces of track with wooden signals etc) for certain things. It was by far the one I dreaded the most but I scored 97% I think so it was a success. It sounds more daunting than it actually is.

Other than that, there’s rules based assessments once you’re back at depot before passout which I’ve yet to have the pleasure of, but if you get that far, you’ve pretty much been dragged through as much intensity as you’ll ever be dragged through.

Drop Out Rate for Trainee Train Drivers

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