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Professional driving policies

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bramling

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I wonder if anyone with the relevant knowledge could comment on what the current officially mandated professional driving policies are for GTR, EMR and LNER, please.

Specifically, any response that’s mandated for

(1) When sighting a double yellow
(2) When sighting a single yellow
(3) Final approach to a red
(4) Speed when running under a shunt signal
(5) When running on flashing yellows

This is for Simsig timetable purposes as I’m trying to get something which captures current reality. I’ve currently got reduce by a third on sighting a double yellow, no more than 60 mph at single yellow, and 20 mph at AWS magnet, also maximum 15 mph when running on a shunt signal aspect. Does this sound about right?
 
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Eccles1983

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What I was told at a previous TOC when I was a trainee is this.

No more than....
60 at a double yellow.
40 at a single yellow
20 at red magnet
20 max when shunting.
Flashing yellows is line speed unless a specific speed for the junction.

In reality it doesn't work everywhere. On a few of my routes if I did the above I'd be knackered as the single yellow is a good mile away from the red. And I've gone last double yellows at 90 and not even had problems in leaf fall.

It's entirely route specific.
 

Mintona

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I doubt it’ll be written to those exact terms (except 20 at the magnet) but you’ll be pretty close with those estimates. They are good rules of thumb.
 

Tomnick

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20mph at the standard magnet distance and 10mph into a terminal platform are the only ones mandated in ours.

50-60mph's usually seen as a good rule of thumb for passing the single yellow, but it's not set in stone and we've got one example (relatively high linespeed and thus longer signal sections, with the red at the end of a platform protecting a level crossing) where you're routinely brought right down to the red if you're stopping, and you'd lose time if you got it down to 50mph by the single yellow. As high as 70mph is comfortable there - the single yellow's actually a little way before the feature that most drivers used as a braking point for the station back when you used to get greens right through in normal circumstances.

Personally my response to a double yellow varies - if it's unexpected, I'll normally knock the speed out early (about a third seems right, then bringing it down for the single yellow as above), especially if the red's not very well sighted (in the hope that the single yellow steps up before I get to it!). If it's one where you're routinely brought down (as above) or where I know that the red's approach released*, I tend to take some sort of positive action initially but otherwise leave it a bit later and use the distance to the single yellow and my speed to judge when to brake to pass the single yellow at 50-60mph.

Running under a subsidiary signal or (perhaps less so) a shunt signal - not necessarily limited to 15mph! We're commonly brought into an occupied platform at one station, and you can quite easily and safely achieve the permitted 25mph through the pointwork on the approach where the sighting is excellent. All I do is take slightly reduced power away from a stand as a reminder, and take into account the rather more restrictive sighting in the platforms themselves when I get that far.

Flashing yellows - no guidance really, other than to be able to comply with the speed through the diverging junction and always considering the possibility that the junction signal doesn't step up beyond a single yellow (and, to be honest, in one case - 70mph through the junction, 90mph on the approach - that'd mean getting the brake in sharpish if the junction signal ever didn't step up by the time I reached my 'decision point', which is a fair way back from the signal).

* - definitely not making any assumption that it'll clear, but conversely not hanging back waiting for the single yellow to step up either!
 

4F89

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(1) When sighting a double yellow
(2) When sighting a single yellow
(3) Final approach to a red
(4) Speed when running under a shunt signal
(5) When running on flashing yellows

For my freight company

1. 60 at the magnet
2. 40 at the magnet
3. 10 at the magnet
4. At caution being prepared to stop short of obstruction, so depends on sighting
5. Treat single flashing as YY

Obviously certain situations allow for movement away from this, but if you follow the above, you won't be getting a "please explain"
 

43066

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I’d echo the above. @bramling ’s figures generally good rules of thumb, certainly for higher speed lines.

Linespeed is key. For linespeeds above 100, 80 at the YY, 60 at Y works pretty well. For lower line speeds I tend to aim for 40 at the YY, 30 at the Y.

I’m aware of one location (90mph linespeed) where the TPWS grids for the red are either side of the magnet for the single yellow, and are triggered at a smidge over 60mph, so clearly you need to be well below 60 at the single yellow.

3 aspect is completely different and you might pass the single yellow at or close to 110mph linespeed but then slow right down to 40mph or so until you can see the next signal has come off.

3. 10 at the magnet

That seems slow from a TOC driver’s perspective but of course makes complete sense when you’re driving a heavy unpredictable freight train.
 

4F89

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That seems slow from a TOC driver’s perspective but of course makes complete sense when you’re driving a heavy unpredictable freight train.

Going RL on pass trains and flying through one at 20 is full brown trousers when you are used to our brakes!
 

PudseyBearHST

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Being pedantic and may not apply to all companies but it is 20mph 200 metres from red signal rather than ‘at the magnet.’ In fact, it is specifically advised not to use the magnet.
 

ComUtoR

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Old school...

YY - Reduce by a 1/3
Y - Reduce by another 1/3
 

4F89

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Being pedantic and may not apply to all companies but it is 20mph 200 metres from red signal rather than ‘at the magnet.’ In fact, it is specifically advised not to use the magnet.
The problem is, for a download, the magnet is what shows on the data, so gives easy comparison to speed. Magnets avoid "please explains".
 

tiptoptaff

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Our 20/20 policy 20mph 200m from the signal officially but we're also told that the magnet is what you aim for as a reference point for your 20mph. We're also hammered to remember is a max of 20 at the magnet, rather than a target
 

365 Networker

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Our TOC recently reduced the 20mph to 15mph at the magnet. They had wanted to reduce it to 10mph.
I can understand that in poor rail conditions, but that seems a bit excessive in good rail conditions. Has your TOC adjusted the timetable to allow for the decreased speeds?
 

43066

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Our TOC recently reduced the 20mph to 15mph at the magnet. They had wanted to reduce it to 10mph.

I have to say I think that’s too restrictive. The longer you spend crawling towards the red the greater the risk of distraction etc.

I’d say the same about the 10mph at the start of a terminal platform which my TOC has introduced. It’s excessive and counterproductive.
 

tiptoptaff

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I have to say I think that’s too restrictive. The longer you spend crawling towards the red the greater the risk of distraction etc.

I’d say the same about the 10mph at the start of a terminal platform which my TOC has introduced. It’s excessive and counterproductive.
I agree that's excessive as a blanket rule - we have terminal platforms short enough that if you didn't hit it at 10mph you'd stand a very good chance of tripping the grids, but also have platforms capable of holding 260m trains.
 

PudseyBearHST

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I can understand that in poor rail conditions, but that seems a bit excessive in good rail conditions. Has your TOC adjusted the timetable to allow for the decreased speeds?

Not really and his/her TOC isn’t the only one that do this. If you have a red signal, what’s the difference if you approach it at 20mph or 10mph? You still have to stop; if anything, if you’re crawling on the approach to the red (e.g 5mph or so), you might not even have to stop because it may clear as you approach it. Whereas if you rush up to it and stop, you’re actually going to waste more time as you’re starting from a stop- a moving train is a happy train.
Although, I can understand your argument when it comes to red signals at a station or an approach release signal. But again, if they want you do 15mph or whatever speed at magnet, do it because any delays incurred is not your fault. Safety > time keeping. And of course, there’s no such thing as an approach release signal. As a driver, you‘re not paid to think :D
 

bramling

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Many thanks for all the replies, which have been most helpful. I’m going to stick with what I’ve got for passenger, and tighten up the freight a little, which seems to fit with current reality (or as close as I can get within the limits of the software - there’s no way of differentiating between a single yellow in 4-aspect area and a single yellow in 3-aspect area, for example). I will also remove the 15 on shunts as this doesn’t seem to be common practice. There’s no way to input 10 mph to buffer stops unfortunately.

An interesting discussion, very interesting to read what people have to say on this.
 

43066

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if anything, if you’re crawling on the approach to the red (e.g 5mph or so), you might not even have to stop because it may clear as you approach it.

I’d argue the absolute worst thing you can do is creep at a snail’s pace towards a red because “it might come off” (albeit we have all done it!).

And of course, there’s no such thing as an approach release signal. As a driver, you‘re not paid to think :D

I had to swallow that nonsense as a trainee. As a qualified driver route learning at a new TOC I asked an instructor not to be so bloody patronising when he tried that line.
 

Tomnick

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And of course, there’s no such thing as an approach release signal. As a driver, you‘re not paid to think :D
I’m really uncomfortable with this approach to training, personally. My view is that we’re paid to use our professional judgement in the application of broad policies in order to drive our trains safely. What’s achieved by teaching trainees that there’s no such thing as an approach released signal when it’s actually a very real and very common principle? As I’ve already said, I do drive differently approaching a signal that I know is approach released, not rushing up to it anticipating it clearing, but knowing that there’s no point hanging back waiting for the single yellow to step up either! I find it very beneficial to understand how the signalling system works and have an appreciation of what’s going on around and in front of me, for a smoother, more relaxing and thus safer journey.

You’ve helpfully highlighted one downside of absolutely rigid instructions - yes, 15mph or 10mph at the magnet is sensible if you’re just trundling up to a signal waiting for it to clear, but if you’re dropping into a platform with a red on the end then you’re just putting unnecessary time into the job (we have one route with four consecutive stations where you routinely come in on a red - not my delay, but that’s little consolation to the one behind who’s potentially now catching restrictive aspects because I’m losing time!). I can think of a couple of signals where you’d probably end up having to take power just to get to the correct stopping position if you’re down to even 15mph at the magnet, which is an additional risk.

(Apologies for quoting your comment and then launching into a rant - I’m not ranting at you, honestly!)
 

CC 72100

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I have to say I think that’s too restrictive. The longer you spend crawling towards the red the greater the risk of distraction etc.

That's a good point - also increased risk of a microsleep or similar loss of concentration/awareness due to the longer time trundling at a low speed. Especially on a falling gradient where you may be making several brake applications to keep the speed below a certain speed (10). You can imagine becoming disorientated after 2-3 repeats of "see speed rise to 11, brake in for a few seconds, goes down to 8, release brake, speeds starts to rise again" and before you know it you've done that when actually what you needed to do this time was stop the train.
 

43066

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As I’ve already said, I do drive differently approaching a signal that I know is approach released, not rushing up to it anticipating it clearing, but knowing that there’s no point hanging back waiting for the single yellow to step up either! I find it very beneficial to understand how the signalling system works and have an appreciation of what’s going on around and in front of me, for a smoother, more relaxing and thus safer journey.

100% agree. It’s all about using your judgement.

One location I sign, where we’re often double blocked, I aim for 40mph towards the red. I have an additional braking point I use the 10% of the time the red doesn’t come off, to comfortably brake down to sub 20mph at the magnet.

Works like a charm.
 

PudseyBearHST

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I’d argue the absolute worst thing you can do is creep at a snail’s pace towards a red because “it might come off” (albeit we have all done it!).



I had to swallow that nonsense as a trainee. As a qualified driver route learning at a new TOC I asked an instructor not to be so bloody patronising when he tried that line.
I agree actually, I don’t like creeping around either. Depending on the location, you may have an inkling of whether its going to clear or not and judge accordingly such as approach to a terminus station seeing no train coming out, etc...

I also definitely agree with your second statement. But again, I was just trying to stress that time keeping is the least of your concerns to the poster who suggested that you’d be losing time.

As I’ve already said, I do drive differently approaching a signal that I know is approach released, not rushing up to it anticipating it clearing, but knowing that there’s no point hanging back waiting for the single yellow to step up either!
No doubt that most drivers including myself do this so definitely agree. As they say, do as I say not as I do ;)
 

iphone76

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I can understand that in poor rail conditions, but that seems a bit excessive in good rail conditions. Has your TOC adjusted the timetable to allow for the decreased speeds?

At 15mph they can just about get away with it during the peaks. 10mph would had required some tweaking, hence it was only reduced to 15mph.
 

43066

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The absolute worst thing is driving into a London terminal at 10mph max, with a steep down gradient, in stock with brakes which take an age to release. If you go above step 2, then you’re stopping, and if the guard releases the doors, congrats: you’ve just had an incident...

You fixate on the speedo, and the brake gauges, 10mph at the start of the platform, needing to still be below 10mph for the grids, and you can easily lose focus on how close you are to the buffers...
 

Economist

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For speeds, single yellow for me is as follows:
If the linespeed is below 30mph, I arrive at the single yellow at around 20mph. This is also the case on areas where the signal sections are only a couple of hundred yards long.
If the linespeed is between 30 and 60mph, then I plan on 30mph at the single yellow.
If the linespeed is above 60mph, I plan on half the linespeed at the single yellow.

The absolute worst thing is driving into a London terminal at 10mph max, with a steep down gradient, in stock with brakes which take an age to release. If you go above step 2, then you’re stopping, and if the guard releases the doors, congrats: you’ve just had an incident...

If you were quick with the necessary bell code in that situation and got it out before the guard opened the doors, would you be exonerated?
 

Pumbaa

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The absolute worst thing is driving into a London terminal at 10mph max, with a steep down gradient, in stock with brakes which take an age to release. If you go above step 2, then you’re stopping, and if the guard releases the doors, congrats: you’ve just had an incident...

You fixate on the speedo, and the brake gauges, 10mph at the start of the platform, needing to still be below 10mph for the grids, and you can easily lose focus on how close you are to the buffers...
I would hope with this specific example, the T.M. would be suitably aware of the situation and attuned to the possibility of a stop short... it’s a very obvious risk!
 

bengley

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For me personally on 4 aspect with 110mph linespeed and standard signal spacing

Shut off on sighting YY
Brake and aim for no more than 75mph past single yellow
Continue braking to 15mph for the magnet for the red.

If I know I'm following something I reduce the double yellow speed as required as there's no point in catching up with whatever it is.

If there are TPWS+ grids for the red, I will ensure I'm doing less than 60mph over the + grids and less than 40mph over the normal grids.

I think PDP is no more than 50mph at a single yellow but in the real world this is unrealistic, particularly in 3 aspect areas.
 

cossie4i

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My FOC is a max of 10mph at the magnet.
I personally hate it, every signal is different, rising gradient, falling gradient etc etc
I don’t want to be looking for a magnet and at my speedo making sure I comply with company instructions, I want to keep my eye on the signal and use my own judgment.
 
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