UK face coverings discussion

Mugby · 25 Jul 2020

I began wearing a mask in shops today, under protest, because there is food and certain essentials I want to buy and I don't want to be turned away from shops I wish to use.

I certainly don't support the idea that masks are a means of reducing the spread because when this thing started, we were told that the virus wasn't airborne, it was touch transmitted. Since then, to my certain knowledge, the 'experts' have changed there minds about masks at least four times, if not more.

We know, pretty much, that as far as public transport was concerned, the government was pressured into mask wearing by the unions but why shops, why now, four months into this thing when the infection rate and the (questionable) death toll has slowed to a trickle?

Could it be that Boris has introduced this now so that he can rescind it just before Christmas and claim to be a hero - and boost his popularity into 2021 ?

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Journeyman · 25 Jul 2020

Bletchleyite said:
For what it's worth, though, and ignoring what I think should be the law but isn't (which we had strayed into a bit), all problems could be avoided by everyone who is required to wear a covering by law doing so in those settings, then there would be no issues because we'd know anyone not wearing one was exempt. It's uncomfortable, but how about just putting up with it for a bit for the greater good?

But the overwhelming majority of people who can wear face coverings are wearing them, at least here in Scotland where it's been required in shops for two weeks. I profoundly disagree with it, but I'm doing it because I'm not a dick, and I can't be bothered with the inevitable grief it would cause if I decided to be a martyr about it.

How about just assuming those not wearing them are exempt, for reasons which are truly none of your business, and just getting on with your life? You spend a ridiculous amount of time trying to decide how the law should be interpreted and who you should or shouldn't challenge or shop to the cops. It's not healthy. You need another hobby.

Bletchleyite · 25 Jul 2020

bramling said:
You’ve also suggested you would challenge people who are legally exempt, either for medical or other reasons.

I'm saying I might point it out if I think someone has forgotten their mask, and would welcome others doing this to me if I similarly forgot. Not that I'm going to walk round challenging everyone like some sort of vigilante.

I do think there needs to be a means of identifying exempt people, this is a massive gap in the law.

farleigh · 25 Jul 2020

Bletchleyite said:
Reduced COVID-19 cases. Or at least a big experiment to see if that's the effect.

We already have that. We will not be able to discern any such effect. Anything else?

Journeyman · 25 Jul 2020

Bletchleyite said:
I do think there needs to be a means of identifying exempt people, this is a massive gap in the law.

People not wearing masks are exempt. Sorted.

Bletchleyite · 25 Jul 2020

farleigh said:
We already have that. We will not be able to discern any such effect. Anything else?

It appears to make most people more confident at restarting normal life is the other benefit. This Forum seems to contain a preponderance of people who are opposed compared with every other setting in life as far as I've noticed. I wonder why?

Journeyman said:
People not wearing masks are exempt. Sorted.

You know, and I know, that this is not actually the case. Some people who are not wearing them are exempt. Others have forgotten, and others are wilfully choosing to break the law.

Huntergreed · 25 Jul 2020

It's utterly disgraceful and shameful how those who are genuinely exempt from mask-wearing are being treated, and I would argue discriminated against, for something that's completely out of their control (some of them quite literally, as disability is a protected characteristic in the UK). I do think however this highlights one of the issues that we currently have as a country.

We've got to the point where the general public perception is 'if it's not COVID, it doesn't matter', and as a society we are, quite literally, willing to discriminate against those who are the have a genuine, fully valid reason for not being able to wear a mask. The fact that, as a society, we are willing to do this to introduce a law which has no scientific basis and is entirely political which has been introduced through improper use of emergency powers is really worrying and whilst many people say 'this is for the greater good', please try and think about how you would feel if you were exempt and were, quite literally, encouraged to receive abuse from the public according to the police.

It's not right. Until we have strong supporting evidence I'll remain convinced that this law is unjustified, but NOTHING gives anyone permission to question someone's medical history, make them feel ashamed for it, or try and guilt-trip them into doing something which could make them potentially do something which is dangerous to them (wear a mask) and, quite frankly, the way this law is being handled and the comments from the police surrounding this right are simply disgraceful and shocking.

Journeyman · 25 Jul 2020

Bletchleyite said:
You know, and I know, that this is not actually the case. Some people who are not wearing them are exempt. Others have forgotten, and others are wilfully choosing to break the law.

Why are you so worried about this? I know some people will have forgotten, and some will be trying it on. Why should I care? What's the point in trying to work it out? Why is it any of your business? Why do you need to know?

farleigh · 25 Jul 2020

Bletchleyite said:
It appears to make most people more confident at restarting normal life is the other benefit. This Forum seems to contain a preponderance of people who are opposed compared with every other setting in life as far as I've noticed. I wonder why?

That's fair enough if it gets us back to normal life. I am not convinced but I would be delighted to be proved wrong. Personally I think it has raised the insecurity of many people and made them less likely to return to a normal life but time will tell.

Happy to have the debate - thanks for your thoughts

Bletchleyite · 25 Jul 2020

Journeyman said:
Why are you so worried about this? I know some people will have forgotten, and some will be trying it on. Why should I care? What's the point in trying to work it out? Why is it any of your business? Why do you need to know?

Because if it's going to work it will work like herd immunity - it requires everyone who can wear one to wear one for the overall good, including the good of those who are actually exempt. So it's important that those who can comply all do.

farleigh said:
That's fair enough if it gets us back to normal life. I am not convinced but I would be delighted to be proved wrong. Personally I think it has raised the insecurity of many people and made them less likely to return to a normal life but time will tell.

Happy to have the debate - thanks for your thoughts

Cheers. I'm off to bed now so I won't reply on this part of the thread again today - shall see tomorrow!

farleigh · 25 Jul 2020

Bletchleyite said:
Because if it's going to work it will work like herd immunity - it requires everyone who can wear one to wear one for the overall good, including the good of those who are actually exempt.

Except nobody is required to wear one in a school for the overall good or otherwise

bramling · 25 Jul 2020

Bletchleyite said:
It appears to make most people more confident at restarting normal life is the other benefit. This Forum seems to contain a preponderance of people who are opposed compared with every other setting in life as far as I've noticed. I wonder why?

Given the numbers visibly misusing their masks (which is something many have commented on so I don’t think this is in dispute), and the fact that as of yesterday few were voluntarily choosing to wear masks in shops, I’m not sure we can infer that there’s massive support for this.

As for some people pretending they’re exempt when they’re not, this is one of those little facts of life. Law enforcement is for the police to deal with, not vigilantes.

Journeyman · 25 Jul 2020

Bletchleyite said:
Because if it's going to work it will work like herd immunity - it requires everyone who can wear one to wear one for the overall good, including the good of those who are actually exempt. So it's important that those who can comply all do.

But it does nothing anyway, so that's nonsense. But even so, you need to keep your nose out. It is not your business to decide who is exempt and who isn't. What else do you fancy deciding for us?

Huntergreed · 25 Jul 2020

bramling said:
Given the numbers visibly misusing their masks (which is something many have commented on so I don’t think this is in dispute), and the fact that as of yesterday few were voluntarily choosing to wear masks in shops, I’m not sure we can infer that there’s massive support for this.

There's support from just a minority, but that minority is VERY vocal, making them appear larger than they actually are (to the government as well as us!)

As for some people pretending they’re exempt when they’re not, this is one of those little facts of life. Law enforcement is for the police to deal with, not vigilantes.

I agree, and it's not the job of shop workers either

talldave · 25 Jul 2020

Bletchleyite said:
It appears to make most people more confident at restarting normal life is the other benefit. This Forum seems to contain a preponderance of people who are opposed compared with every other setting in life as far as I've noticed. I wonder why?

Because, as I've said before, people on here have a higher IQ than the Facebook Furloughs. They can see the requirement is not based on any facts, is pointless based on infection rates plummeting without masks and has no exit strategy.

Normal life is not wearing a mask, I'm there already thanks. And if you want to approach me to talk about it you'll get told exactly where to stick your opinions. I don't go around reminding mask wearers that they're spineless sheep, it's none of my business.

PaulMc7 · 25 Jul 2020

This was on the Scotgov website until they were made mandatory. If the government were open from the start and brought strong, supporting facts that they work I think things would have been better and people who aren't exempt would have believed more in wearing one. It would definitely have made things easier for people like myself who are genuinely exempt because people would maybe show common sense and realise exemptions exist more commonly than anyone realises

Cowley · 25 Jul 2020

Right then. We always knew that this thread would have a lot strong feelings being expressed but it’s definitely time to stop any more antagonism tonight...

Take a breath (that’s probably best to do without a mask if you feel that the air is safe in your immediate vicinity) and come back to the discussion in the morning if you’re getting wound up.

PaulMc7 · 25 Jul 2020

Cowley said:
Right then. We always knew that this thread would have a lot strong feelings being expressed but it’s definitely time to stop any more antagonism tonight...

Take a breath (that’s probably best to do without a mask if you feel that the air is safe in your immediate vicinity) and come back to the discussion in the morning if you’re getting wound up.

Definitely a fan of the "Take a breath" use. Fair play

Yew · 25 Jul 2020

Bletchleyite said:
Because if it's going to work it will work like herd immunity - it requires everyone who can wear one to wear one for the overall good, including the good of those who are actually exempt. So it's important that those who can comply all do.

I don't think there's any evidence that this mechanism is a valid supposition.

Edit: As per Cowley, let's ceasefire for the moment

bussnapperwm · 25 Jul 2020

farleigh said:
Can you describe the greater good?

I get this cold shudder whenever I read those two words.

yorkie · 25 Jul 2020

ross4122 said:
The opposite has happened in Scotland where it has been in effect for two weeks. Yes it's too early to draw relevant conclusions, but if England follows suit then there could be a correlation.

I see cases are rising in Spain and France, but falling in Sweden; does anyone know what the mask usage is like in those countries?

That said, it would take a lot of correlations to draw conclusions, as there could be other factors at play too, so caution is required when making such comparisons, and I don't think we will be able to make any conclusive answers for several weeks at least.

bramling · 25 Jul 2020

yorkie said:
I see cases are rising in Spain and France, but falling in Sweden; does anyone know what the mask usage is like in those countries?

That said, it would take a lot of correlations to draw conclusions, as there could be other factors at play too, so caution is required when making such comparisons, and I don't think we will be able to make any conclusive answers for several weeks at least.

Sweden seems to be getting a lot of negative coverage of late, which seems to be based on them having a high death rate relative to their population size. However, it seems they too messed up with care homes, which makes it very hard to get a true idea of how things have really gone there. Likewise with infection rates it’s hard to compare between countries without them all having an identical testing regime, which is clearly never going to be the case.

I’m sure I read somewhere recently that the suspected cause of America’s current high infection rates is pubs and restaurants, were that to be the case then this would suggest distancing in those places is more strategically valuable than masks, since masks aren’t compatible with those settings.

The other big elephant in the room has to be open-plan offices. Judging by the emptiness seen in places like the city of London and the lack of railway commuter traffic, clearly many who work in such places are still either furloughed or working from home. Unless employers can find another way of doing things like massive amounts of Perspex screening, it seems almost inevitable there’s going to be clamour for masks in such places on the basis that they must pose more of a risk than shops, as people will be mingling with each other for longer periods.

Freightmaster · 25 Jul 2020

Bletchleyite said:
It's uncomfortable, but how about just putting up with it for a bit for the greater good?

bussnapperwm said:
I get this cold shudder whenever I read those two words.

(Hot Fuzz gif)

MARK

Bantamzen · 25 Jul 2020

Bletchleyite said:
Reduced COVID-19 cases. Or at least a big experiment to see if that's the effect.

Wait, what? Are you now suggesting that the arguments that there is little evidence that masks actually help at all might actually have weight? And if this is is a big experiment (which I don't believe because it is clearly political), where are the control measures? Who is carrying out the tests? Where can we see the results?

Freightmaster said:
(Hot Fuzz gif)

MARK

Every time I hear / read someone banging on about "the greater good", I think of this scene. I then also remember that both in fact & fiction, dictatorships often start with a slogan about people doing things for a greater good.

Huntergreed · 25 Jul 2020

Came across this article from the Beeb this morning:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/53108405

It goes through many of the myths about masks being dangerous to your breathing, and it uses the reasoning of “no evidence to support this claim” to dismiss them. Funnily enough no mention of the fact that the effectiveness of masks in lowering transmission of the virus has “no evidence to support this claim” either.

Another concerning thing I’m seeing on social media this morning is that People are now discussing masks as a “fashion accessory” and some think we should keep them mandated for after the pandemic “it will help save lives from other causes and they look good”. We surely aren’t going to do this?

RomeoCharlie71 · 25 Jul 2020

People might come accustomed to it so continue with it, but I can't see it being mandated forever.

Bletchleyite · 25 Jul 2020

ross4122 said:
People might come accustomed to it so continue with it, but I can't see it being mandated forever.

I think it (the whole thing, including masks) is likely to last 1-2 years in common with the Spanish Flu of 1918. Obviously a vaccine or effective treatment provides an earlier get-out, though.

RomeoCharlie71 · 25 Jul 2020

Bletchleyite said:
I think it (the whole thing, including masks) is likely to last 1-2 years in common with the Spanish Flu of 1918. Obviously a vaccine or effective treatment provides an earlier get-out, though.

Well, quite. Sooner would be nice, of course.

Bletchleyite · 25 Jul 2020

ross4122 said:
Well, quite. Sooner would be nice, of course.

Agreed. I'm not particularly enjoying any of it, and I don't like wearing a mask at all (if they weren't required I'd likely go for a leisure train ride today, for example, but as they are I'm not doing), I'm just more pragmatic on the matter than some.

Huntergreed · 25 Jul 2020

yorkie said:
I see cases are rising in Spain and France, but falling in Sweden; does anyone know what the mask usage is like in those countries?

Currently, in France masks are mandated in shops or enclosed public spaces (same as here really), in Spain, masks are mandated on public transport, as well as indoor and outdoor public spaces. Sweden has not mandated masks anywhere.

It’s far too early to draw any solid conclusions, but these facts, combined with the fact that ever since masks were mandated in Scotland cases have increased quite significantly, suggests Jenny Harries was right when she said they do “more harm than good”.

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