Seconded. There are plenty of situations where a solicitor isn't necessary but this may well not be one of them. I suggest going to any solicitor with a half decent reputation who deals in criminal law. There are solicitors firms who do railway law, but they're usually very expensive and that would not be necessary in this case. Any decent criminal law solicitors will be well experienced in similar cases
-
Our booking engine at tickets.railforums.co.uk (powered by TrainSplit) helps support the running of the forum with every ticket purchase! Find out more and ask any questions/give us feedback in this thread!
Court Hearing
- Thread starter HelpMe406
- Start date
- Status
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R
RailUK Forums
Cheshire Rover
Member
My advice for what it is worth is get yourself some professional legal advice.
WesternLancer
Established Member
- Joined
- 12 Apr 2019
- Messages
- 7,165
Personally I agree with the consensus opinion on here and advice for the OP - but perhaps this is a wider issue, but this must happen all the time. ie people give fake details to railway enforcement staff and then pay fines in the name of the fake person or ignore them completely and then 'fake people' must, I assume go to court and get sentenced - since I assume courts don't abandon cases brought like this because the name of the offender reported to them is not on electoral role / national insurance register etc etc.
I'd go so far as to say a high percentage of people who find themselves under the scrutiny of the court system, esp in cases like this or other similar matters, are not on such registers, even if they are not using fake names.
I assume the courts basically have to write it off don't they?
It's a few tears old (2012) but reports like this can you leave you thinking that for many people, fines levied are entirely optional payment requests!
"Almost £2bn is owed in unpaid court fines and confiscation orders, a report by a committee of MPs has revealed. "
I'm saying it at a whisper - but if you do actually pay up / a fine is settled, I doubt the incentive is there to go looking into it further?
Even though my advice would be to contact the Train Company and come clean about it.
The OP responses do not suggest that is their probable course of action however. But they have been clearly warned of the consequences in various posts.
I'd go so far as to say a high percentage of people who find themselves under the scrutiny of the court system, esp in cases like this or other similar matters, are not on such registers, even if they are not using fake names.
I assume the courts basically have to write it off don't they?
It's a few tears old (2012) but reports like this can you leave you thinking that for many people, fines levied are entirely optional payment requests!
Unpaid court fines approach £2bn
Almost £2bn is owed in unpaid court fines and confiscation orders, official figures presented to MPs show.
www.bbc.co.uk
I'm saying it at a whisper - but if you do actually pay up / a fine is settled, I doubt the incentive is there to go looking into it further?
Even though my advice would be to contact the Train Company and come clean about it.
The OP responses do not suggest that is their probable course of action however. But they have been clearly warned of the consequences in various posts.
Manxmaninexile
Member
- Joined
- 10 Mar 2018
- Messages
- 10
If I were your brother I would not be at all happy about the possibility of having a "non-existent" person being fined in court having given my address. Think about it...
I think your best bet is to come clean with TOC but I agree with the suggestion from others that you should get paid for legal advice. (I assume your brother must know about all this? If I were him I think I'd want my own legal advice too - that you pay for).
I think your best bet is to come clean with TOC but I agree with the suggestion from others that you should get paid for legal advice. (I assume your brother must know about all this? If I were him I think I'd want my own legal advice too - that you pay for).
jumble
Member
- Joined
- 1 Jul 2011
- Messages
- 1,110
I suspect that the courts might find an issue doing this if ones name was John Smith
You have a touching faith in Government departments
I know someone to whom Inland revenue still send statements to an address that they have not lived at but still own for 15 years despite the fact that they fill out a self assessment every year using the same Tax Number and their current address.
WesternLancer
Established Member
- Joined
- 12 Apr 2019
- Messages
- 7,165
Indeed - tho presumably the issue would only come to brother's attention when bailiff's turned up to collect un paid fine looking for the non existent person at the brother's address. To which the brother will say 'no one of that name here' I would expect. But if fine paid then bailiffs are unlikely to be making that house call...
And if they are rented property and the brother is a tenant he may be long gone before that would happen even if the fine was left unpaid.
The OPs later posts suggested they were prepared to take the risk of a stretch at her majesty's pleasure over this in anycase. Whether their brother would be minded to visit them is not mentioned.
Brissle Girl
Established Member
- Joined
- 17 Jul 2018
- Messages
- 2,644
Unlikely, as that department hasn't existed for 15 years, since it was merged with another government department.
Just point out to anyone who might read this the likelihood is that a local Citizens Advice will be able to offer very little if any support/advice in any criminal matter (such as this). It is not part of the core service so would only be available in outfits which have been able to secure third-party funding for a solicitor (unlikely) or have arranged for a local solicitor to work from their office from time to time (more likely but probably only for for a free initial consultation with any actual work being chargeable). Citizens Advice does a lot of very good work but they are almost exclusively (certainly in terms of the core service) limited to civil law only. Indeed I wouldn't be surprised if the only practical help they can offer is a list of local solicitor firms which offer free initial consultations to save someone the legwork of having to call up individual firms to enquire about it themselves.
matt_world2004
Established Member
- Joined
- 5 Nov 2014
- Messages
- 4,504
Isn't it both the name and address that would be used to ascertain identity
No,
Its National Insurance Number (NINO) or 10 digit Unique Tax Reference number (UTR) for Self Assessment cases.
WesternLancer
Established Member
- Joined
- 12 Apr 2019
- Messages
- 7,165
I think at post #16 his brother hacked his account...
The issue posted does raise some pertinent general points however.
I think when the letter comes I will just pay for it
What if I just pay for the fine when it comes through?
What if I just pay for the fine when it comes?
Wouldn’t I still go to prison either way? Because it’s classed as fraud
Manxmaninexile
Member
- Joined
- 10 Mar 2018
- Messages
- 10
Sounds as if your brother doesn't know then? Seems unlikely though - how do you get to the mail before him?
If I were the brother I couldn't care less about the bailiffs turning up - that can be sorted out relatively easily so long as you do it properly. What would worry me if I was the brother (and I could foresee him suffering as a result) is having a conviction registered at my address that had nothing to do with me or anyone who lived there. I suspect that as the law stands at the moment it couldn't be tracked or traced or show up on any credit checks - but who's to say how the law may change in six months? (Would an enhanced DBS turn up a conviction like this against an address rather than a person?).
If I were the brother I'd be fuming.
If I were the brother I couldn't care less about the bailiffs turning up - that can be sorted out relatively easily so long as you do it properly. What would worry me if I was the brother (and I could foresee him suffering as a result) is having a conviction registered at my address that had nothing to do with me or anyone who lived there. I suspect that as the law stands at the moment it couldn't be tracked or traced or show up on any credit checks - but who's to say how the law may change in six months? (Would an enhanced DBS turn up a conviction like this against an address rather than a person?).
If I were the brother I'd be fuming.
Fawkes Cat
Established Member
- Joined
- 8 May 2017
- Messages
- 2,987
You're unlikely to go to prison. As quite a lot of people have pointed out here, giving a false identity is potentially perverting the course of justice, and that can send you to prison - but the courts do have a sense of proportion. You're trying to cover up a conviction for fare-dodging - and that's not in the same league as pretending that it's not you who murdered someone.
Starting from where you are (that you gave a false name and address, and you are now facing a fine, but you want everything to go away and the future to be as simple as possible) I'd suggest that you need to talk to a solicitor and get them to help you explain matters to the court and to the railway. You might well be able to talk to a solicitor for free, in that if you're a member of a trade union you may get some right to legal representation as part of what you pay for through your sub, and if you're a student then your student union may provide such a service - try to find if there is a welfare officer who can help you. Or you may be a member of a church or some sort of club where there will be someone who will help. And even if those come to nothing, a lot of solicitors offer free initial consultations - obviously they are trying to drum up business that they will be paid for, but if all you need to do is write a polite letter to the court and the railway explaining what has happened then they may be able to tell you to do that and not charge you.
You should try to get the offence put against your real name: if in the future you apply for a job where the employer is allowed to ask you 'do you have any criminal convictions', it's much better to give a straight answer of 'yes' rather than saying 'no' and then subsequently the employer finding out that you have lied to them. So I would advise you to do whatever you need to to get everything put into your proper name.
Thank you for being understanding, I just wanted to know why can’t I not just pay for the fine when it comes?
Western Sunset
Established Member
Do you intend to pay in cash? Wouldn't the court (who whoever) collecting the money want some proof as to who you were?
No I intend to pay by using a debit card
WesternLancer
Established Member
- Joined
- 12 Apr 2019
- Messages
- 7,165
probably depends if the performance indicator is 'money collected' or 'money collected from the correct person' !
Interestingly the other recent thread that showed redacted court docs from Nottingham detailing a fine to be paid did not seem to detail a cash payment option, and in the covid world they probably are even less keen on people turning up to pay in person, and I suspect that they don't offer easy payment options like paying at your local corner shop 'PayPoint' facility.
WesternLancer
Established Member
- Joined
- 12 Apr 2019
- Messages
- 7,165
I suspect that you can simply do that, but I don't personally know. I'd have a hunch that people regularly ring to pay on behalf of friends or relatuves who may not have bank accounts or phone payment methods for example, but I do not know for certain never having done it or been involved in paying such things myself.
Fawkes Cat
Established Member
- Joined
- 8 May 2017
- Messages
- 2,987
Well, that wouldn't be honest, and I don't see that I can advise you to be anything but honest.
I won't go into why honesty is the best policy - that's something that most of us learn in our early years and for those of us who don't universities have philosophy departments to discuss the issue. But just looking at things practically, it's by no means impossible that at some point you might want a job where it's important that you are honest. There are more jobs like that than you might think - obviously there are roles where you have charge of other people's money (working in a bank for example) but there are also jobs where you have other people's personal information (being a nurse or a doctor perhaps, or working in a council office or in recruitment), and there are also jobs where you are looking after other people's property (anything in a shop, a job where you drive the company's vehicle and so could make off with the car/van/lorry, a job in an office or factory where not everything is nailed down and you might steal the chair or the lathe or whatever). In all of these jobs the employer will want to know if you're honest - if you can be trusted with the information or assets that you have access to.
At first glance, you might think that being able to deny a fare-dodging conviction would be a good thing - it's not your name, so how can they link it to you? But it's surprising how things do get out. It might be that the court would eventually catch up with you (I think you've given your brother's address - what's to stop someone coming round and asking him if he knows of someone who might have given that address, or them looking into people who might have used that address falsely, and deciding that you are the person they're after?) or you might have a conversation in a tea break at work ('years back I got away with fare dodging as I gave a false name') that gets back to your boss. However it happens, I will make a prediction - if you're doing a job where you need to be seen to be honest, and your employer finds out that you didn't tell them about a conviction, then you will be sacked for gross misconduct. You won't be sacked because of the fare-dodging - most employers understand that people do silly things from time to time, and as long as you don't make a habit of it they won't mind. But you will be sacked because of not telling them: if you can't be trusted to admit to something minor like fare-dodging, then what else are you hiding from them? You even actively decided to hide your dishonesty by giving a false name, so what might you do with what your employer has trusted you with? You will have proved yourself not to be trustworthy, and that would mean that the employer couldn't trust you to do the job.
And there's one other thing. The fact that you've looked for advice here says to me that you're not happy that you will get away with using your false name. I don't know you, but if you are like everyone that I have ever met, you will feel a lot better about things if you tell the truth about your name. Even if you do get away with lying about it for the moment, there will always be the worry that someone will find out, and you will be caught. If you are honest about it as soon as possible, then whatever consequences there are will happen to you sooner rather than later: they will be dealt with, and over. You'll find it easier to sleep at night.
jumble
Member
- Joined
- 1 Jul 2011
- Messages
- 1,110
Indeed you are correct it is HMRC who write but my point remains the same.
jumble
Member
- Joined
- 1 Jul 2011
- Messages
- 1,110
This is tricky because one could argue that because one is allowed to go by what ever name one wants and that by giving his brothers address he is contactable the OP could just pay the fine when it comes
If anyone asks him he can say I have adopted the false name and I was reachable and I paid the fine and what are you going to do about it?
.
The downside of coming clean is that he gets worse punishment
Deed Poll Office (D·P·O)
Everything you need to legally change your name in the U.K.
In the U.K. you can change your name (or your child’s name) at any time.
Changing your name is a legal matter, which means there isn’t an “official” place where you go to register a change of name. In law, you can simply adopt a new name and start using it.
I do suggest that if he does pay the fine then never mentioning again his foolish behaviour would be prudent
Enthusiast
Member
- Joined
- 18 Mar 2019
- Messages
- 1,106
I had something to add and I added it within the second line of my reply. The reason for my comment was this:
And that's why I'm out.
That’s what I want to do come clean but I’ve spoken to people who I am close with and all they have said is to pay for it when it comes that if I admit the truth I will go to prison 100%. So as it seems I’m going to prison either way. I’m acting is as if I’m covering up a murder and I haven’t even harmed anyone.
Fawkes Cat
Established Member
- Joined
- 8 May 2017
- Messages
- 2,987
Talk to a lawyer. They will know whether there is a realistic risk of being sent to prison.
(By the way - are you quite sure that the people that you are close with aren't winding you up? They might think that it's funny - or want you to be uncomfortable so that you don't dodge your fare again.)
- Status