Scottish Electrification updates & discussion

GRALISTAIR · 28 Jul 2020

And another gem

We are confident that in having a commitment to a long-term programme, rather than an intermittent schedule with its inherent peaks and troughs, we can create the opportunity for our rail supply industry to rise to the occasion and implement more appropriate techniques and equipment utilising knowledge and experience gained from our earlier projects in order to deliver and secure greater efficiencies (including through plant based in Scotland). Additionally, there will be significant prospects for the creation of more skilled, sustainable jobs in Scotland and, accordingly, a significant additional contribution to the economy. These jobs will be in the direct provision of electrification as well as in the supply of rolling stock and advanced technologies in the design of alternative traction methods to complement our electrification of the network.

So refreshing

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ForTheLoveOf · 28 Jul 2020

GRALISTAIR said:
And another gem

So refreshing

Perhaps there is even an outside chance that England and Wales could benefit from this approach...

Kendalian · 28 Jul 2020

ForTheLoveOf said:
Perhaps there is even an outside chance that England and Wales could benefit from this approach...

If only....

Despite last week's announcement, I'd have a little bet on electric trains reaching Inverness and/or Aberdeen (under their own "steam" before some smart Alec points out the Azumas!) before Leeds to Manchester is finished

Plans are certainly ambitious, but what's wrong with having ambition?

HST43257 · 28 Jul 2020

Just to clear this up in my brain, are we seeing yellow from Ayr to Girvan, Inverurie to Inverness Airport and Inverness to Tain?

ForTheLoveOf · 28 Jul 2020

Kendalian said:
under their own "steam" before some smart Alec points out the Azumas

Shouldn't take too long to get a steam heated electric loco dragged up there...

alangla · 28 Jul 2020

Dan H York said:
Just to clear this up in my brain, are we seeing yellow from Ayr to Girvan, Inverurie to Inverness Airport and Inverness to Tain?

Yes, which surprised me. I thought Ayr South Parkway Station and electrification to Girvan would have been a much higher priority. Also hard to see any point in running anything other than straight electrics on services that don’t go to Stranraer.

edwin_m · 28 Jul 2020

alangla said:
Yes, which surprised me. I thought Ayr South Parkway Station and electrification to Girvan would have been a much higher priority. Also hard to see any point in running anything other than straight electrics on services that don’t go to Stranraer.

Yellow includes "use of alternative technology prior to electrification". I think that makes it worth electrifying but one of the lowest priorities, so probably hydrogen bi-modes that will initially run on electric only north of Ayr but later as far south as Girvan. The fact self-powered trains will always be needed for Stranraer weakens the case for electrification to Girvan, compared to other sections of similar length and service frequency where electrification would allow EMUs to replace self-powered.

hwl · 28 Jul 2020

There are 2 useful maps in the full report (non exec summary). Medium term (2035) and long term (2045)
2035

and 2045

Notice no yellow in 2045:

GRALISTAIR · 28 Jul 2020

hwl said:
There are 2 useful maps in the full report (non exec summary). Medium term (2035) and long term (2045)
2035 and 2045

Notice no yellow in 2045:

Thanks - I had not noticed that. So grid feeders and other awkward structures. I would be 88 in 2045 - God I would love to live that long to see it.

hwl · 28 Jul 2020

GRALISTAIR said:
Thanks - I had not noticed that. So grid feeders and other awkward structures. I would be 88 in 2045 - God I would love to live that long to see it.

I suspect more case of bigger wins elsewhere earlier, these are all the lowest traffic track sections they plan to get electrify.
168 route miles (269 route km) post 2035

GRALISTAIR · 28 Jul 2020

The National Infrastructure Commission, (December 2018) 12 report advised that per tonne kilometre, rail emits only about a quarter of the CO2 of road freight. Across the UK, in 2017, the heavy goods vehicle (HGV) sector contributed around 25 MtCO2e per year. The entire UK rail sector contributes around 3 MtCO2e per year.

Accordingly, a 10% modal shift of HGV traffic to rail would reduce almost as much annual CO2e as the entire rail industry emits. Electrification of the network would extend the capability of existing electric-traction rail freight and encourage conversion from diesel rail freight which, if allied to network improvements such as connections to ports and expansion of freight depots, could make a substantial contribution to achieving modal shift and significantly improving the health of the environment.

Wow

Southsider · 28 Jul 2020

I particularly like the pragmatic approach to design that is being proposed. For example the long, straight stretches on the East Kilbride and Barrhead routes should allow wider spacing of piles and supports.

GRALISTAIR · 28 Jul 2020

Southsider said:
I particularly like the pragmatic approach to design that is being proposed. For example the long, straight stretches on the East Kilbride and Barrhead routes should allow wider spacing of piles and supports.

Indeed - I like this bit

We believe that if Network Rail Scotland is wholly responsible for cost, safety and
delivery but has a degree of freedom to determine designs appropriate to the needs
of Scotland’s network, it should be able to deliver pragmatic, effective electrification
solutions that adopt and adapt best practice from here in Britain and across Europe
at an increasingly efficient price.

EdinburghTrain · 28 Jul 2020

mcmad said:
There is a current project looking at extending passenger services from Alloa to ~~Kincardine~~ Dunfermline, partially tied into the proposed Talgo factory which would extend the wires to Kincardine. Linking that to the Fife circle is pretty much a no brainer from a resiliance point of view as much as anything else.

The map makes it look like there's already track between Alloa and Kincardine, is that right?

385001 said:
Ambitious and very welcome.

Also interesting to see what looks like the Edinburgh South Sub and the immediate are east of Winchburgh Junction in red. Almond Chord possibilities?

Exciting to see the Almond Chord, presumably if it's being electrified then they're pretty much have to build the chord?
Isn't the South Sub already planned for Network Rail CP6 to allow Class 385's and 800's + electrified freight bypass the city centre and access Millerhill.

Put Kettle On said:
Looks like Thornton Yard & Leith branch are in there as well.

Is it possible that the Leith Branch you're looking at is the North Berwick line? I - sadly - don't see the line into the Leith Docks on the map at all?
Forth Ports have actually just fenced off the route into the port, it looks fairly permanent and doesn't look like it will open (i.e. a gate).

AMD · 28 Jul 2020

The track between Alloa and Kincardine already exists as it was the freight line for coal to Longannet.

The red east of Winchburgh Jct is the line up to Dalmeny, nothing in this plan for Almond Chord.

Leith branch is on the plan, if you look close enough!, but it's white (just like the freight lines in Ayrshire)

EdinburghTrain · 28 Jul 2020

AMD said:
The track between Alloa and Kincardine already exists as it was the freight line for coal to Longannet.

The red east of Winchburgh Jct is the line up to Dalmeny, nothing in this plan for Almond Chord.

Leith branch is on the plan, if you look close enough!, but it's white (just like the freight lines in Ayrshire)

Sorry, I meant Dunfermline. Map makes it look like there's track from Alloa to Dunfermline?

Yeah, there's nothing explicitly there about the Almond Chord, you'd just have to imagine for the cost of electrifying it would be worth building the chord at the same time. I expect an the electrified Almond Chord will be one of the earlier parts of this rolling plan. It'd be nice if they throw in a station at Kirkliston too.

I see the tiny branch now down to Leith! Thanks

Philip Phlopp · 28 Jul 2020

EdinburghTrain said:
Sorry, I meant Dunfermline. Map makes it look like there's track from Alloa to Dunfermline?

Yeah, there's nothing explicitly there about the Almond Chord, you'd just have to imagine for the cost of electrifying it would be worth building the chord at the same time. I expect an the electrified Almond Chord will be one of the earlier parts of this rolling plan. It'd be nice if they throw in a station at Kirkliston too.

I see the tiny branch now down to Leith! Thanks

Yes, Dunfermline to Longannet was the former route for coal being delivered to Longannet, congestion across the Forth Bridge and an interest in reinstating passenger services to Alloa resulted in the Stirling-Alloa-Kincardine project. Passenger services were restored to Alloa, with the line to Longannet being reinstated for freight, allowing coal to be delivered via Stirling. That restored a through line from Stirling to Dunfermline.

Philip Phlopp · 28 Jul 2020

Southsider said:
I particularly like the pragmatic approach to design that is being proposed. For example the long, straight stretches on the East Kilbride and Barrhead routes should allow wider spacing of piles and supports.

If you like dewirements.

GRALISTAIR · 28 Jul 2020

Rail electrification is a tried and tested technology which uses energy efficiently and reduces rail CO2, NOx and particulate emissions.

I just love it.

GRALISTAIR · 28 Jul 2020

Southsider said:
I particularly like the pragmatic approach to design that is being proposed. For example the long, straight stretches on the East Kilbride and Barrhead routes should allow wider spacing of piles and supports.

I would have preferred the phrase COULD rather than should but --

GRALISTAIR · 28 Jul 2020

Our rolling programme of decarbonisation considers a range of key factors and
drivers such as:

-- whether electrification enables a diversionary route

By 2035 we aim to have an electrified route between Glasgow via Gretna to Carlisle benefitting commuter flows from New Cumnock to Glasgow and Dumfries to Carlisle. Additionally, by electrifying the line we envisage an enhanced strategic capability for rail freight, and a valuable diversionary route for freight and passenger services during closure of the West Coast Main Line. We will use alternative traction as a transition in the South-West of Scotland until full electrification and also on the line from Ayr to Girvan. At this stage we are planning to run alternative traction permanently from Girvan to Stranraer.

Wonderful forward and sensible thinking and planning.

alangla · 28 Jul 2020

Philip Phlopp said:
If you like dewirements.

That was my first thought as well. It worked so well on the ECML...

EMU303 · 28 Jul 2020

Any guess when we might see spades in the ground?

Philip Phlopp · 28 Jul 2020

I do hope the new West Highland Line, Far North Line and Kyle of Lochalsh Line rolling stock is something a bit better than a ****box Mark 3 EMU breathed upon by Alstom and fitted with some fuel cells and hydrogen tanks.

I can dream, but I would love to see something really special for those routes - large panoramic windows, sensible catering offering, good cycle and luggage space. A Scottish 'Glacier/Bernina Express' essentially.

InOban · 28 Jul 2020

EdinburghTrain said:
Sorry, I meant Dunfermline. Map makes it look like there's track from Alloa to Dunfermline?

Yeah, there's nothing explicitly there about the Almond Chord, you'd just have to imagine for the cost of electrifying it would be worth building the chord at the same time. I expect an the electrified Almond Chord will be one of the earlier parts of this rolling plan. It'd be nice if they throw in a station at Kirkliston too.

I see the tiny branch now down to Leith! Thanks

The cost of building the Almond Chord would be orders of magnitude greater than electrifying between Winchburgh and Dalmeny, which will create a diversionary route when it is necessary to close the Almond viaduct.

Brissle Girl · 28 Jul 2020

Philip Phlopp said:
I do hope the new West Highland Line, Far North Line and Kyle of Lochalsh Line rolling stock is something a bit better than a ****box Mark 3 EMU breathed upon by Alstom and fitted with some fuel cells and hydrogen tanks.

I can dream, but I would love to see something really special for those routes - large panoramic windows, sensible catering offering, good cycle and luggage space. A Scottish 'Glacier/Bernina Express' essentially.

I'm in total agreement with you. It could extend the tourist season too, if the journey by rail became the reason for the journey, like it is for the trains you mentioned. I think the windows would need to be proper panoramic ones, which extend up and are angled to give a much higher view out, to enjoy the mountain scenery in winter.

Sadly I think it will remain just a dream unfortunately.

GRALISTAIR · 28 Jul 2020

Brissle Girl said:
I'm in total agreement with you. It could extend the tourist season too, if the journey by rail became the reason for the journey, like it is for the trains you mentioned. I think the windows would need to be proper panoramic ones, which extend up and are angled to give a much higher view out, to enjoy the mountain scenery in winter.

Sadly I think it will remain just a dream unfortunately.

Not to get too far off topic but yes in Peru the trains to Macchu Pichu are specifically designed that way and even San Francisco to Chicago has a fabulous observation car or two. Helps with tourism. Would not shock me if Scotland does go for something like that as they are very forward thinking.

13h202 · 28 Jul 2020

Philip Phlopp said:
I can dream, but I would love to see something really special for those routes - large panoramic windows, sensible catering offering, good cycle and luggage space. A Scottish 'Glacier/Bernina Express' essentially.

Absolutely this. There is a lot of untapped potential on the scenic routes. Proper new-build stock with a focus on comfort as opposed to speed and capacity. First class is a must imo. Luggage and bike carriages, as well as a sleeper-style club car would be great. Luckily, with the rest of the country requiring electric stock, there is not the same need for flexible use as there is with current diesel stock. This means that more attention can be paid to the specific needs of scenic routes. Let’s just hope that they don’t chuck a hydrogen 314 on the WHL...

InOban said:
The cost of building the Almond Chord would be orders of magnitude greater than electrifying between Winchburgh and Dalmeny, which will create a diversionary route when it is necessary to close the Almond viaduct.

The Almond Chord also gets rid of Edinburgh Gateway’s white elephant status, connecting it up to the rest of the network. With better tram ticketing integration and the new airport access road right by it, it may turn out to be one of the best interchange stations in Scotland.

gingertom · 29 Jul 2020

I'd be interested to know if the 15 year rolling plan is simply for stringing up the wires, or whether there are plans to upgrade any/some/most/all of the pinch points on the network. I'm thinking about the single track sections of the Highland Mainline, Usan & Montrose Esk viaduct, the Tay viaduct in Perth and the GSWR from Barrhead to Kilmarnock for starters.

GRALISTAIR · 29 Jul 2020

gingertom said:
I'd be interested to know if the 15 year rolling plan is simply for stringing up the wires, or whether there are plans to upgrade any/some/most/all of the pinch points on the network. I'm thinking about the single track sections of the Highland Mainline, Usan & Montrose Esk viaduct, the Tay viaduct in Perth and the GSWR from Barrhead to Kilmarnock for starters.

It is definitely an interesting question. On the one hand they admit it will be tight and the decarbonization agenda/timetable is quite aggressive and so will not want any further delays by adding to the scope. OTOH Scotland is usually quite forward thinking. I suppose as the saying goes- watch this space.

Scottish Electrification updates & discussion

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