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Go Cornwall Bus

Whiteway215

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I’m not very familiar with the Bodmin area but have been looking at the 176 Launceston to Bodmin Road (sorry Parkway!)
timetable. Would anyone be able to comment whether this service is designed as a Bodmin town service, a Callywith College bus or a rail link to Parkway? Or not likely to carry many passengers?
 
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richw

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I’m not very familiar with the Bodmin area but have been looking at the 176 Launceston to Bodmin Road (sorry Parkway!)
timetable. Would anyone be able to comment whether this service is designed as a Bodmin town service, a Callywith College bus or a rail link to Parkway? Or not likely to carry many passengers?
Cornwall council press release said launceston to rail link. It doesn’t serve much other purpose. It doesn’t even serve that purpose other than those travelling west from launceston. Anyone else will catch the 12 to Plymouth station where there is more frequency
 

Busaholic

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TfC commenced full service on 1st June. First have made 3 timetable changes since, every time changing roadside publicity!

many of the users of TfC tendered services are elderly lifeline services. How many of those are computer/internet literate without stereotyping those elderly. I wonder how many don’t use the bus because of times not being easily accessible to them
Used to see an elderly (mid 80s) couple in Sainsbury's Penzance at the same time, late afternoon weekdays. He used to sit on the seats by the exits to the checkout while she did the shopping, then they'd go outside to the seat nearest to the bus stop and get on a 16 bus, then operated by FK. I haven't seen them since the lockdown and the changed bus arrangements, which is doubtless not just because of the bus times. Another regular twice-weekly user of this particular bus working was a friend of mine from Ludgvan Churchtown with a bus pass, but also a mean streak, and he'd now prefer to drag his battered old Cortina, or whatever, and pay for petrol, than risk a bus not turning up.
 

MarkC

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Sadly you didn’t miss it. Neither exists from what I’ve seen as a First driver who shares bus stations daily with TFC.
Passengers are bringing our (First) cleaners at bus stations chocolates to say thank you for the cleanliness, so it’s clearly an important thing to the passengers.
Locals in Newquay are asking “are you First” before boarding. I asked one to elaborate, and she said she feels safer with the clear covid Measures in place !

Yes to be fair they are doing a great job...here in Plymouth it has been mentioned by quite a few people how much better it feels safety wise travelling on Stagecoach services in the city and surrounds compared to Go Ahead Citybus, so must be a company approach?
 

richw

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Yes to be fair they are doing a great job...here in Plymouth it has been mentioned by quite a few people how much better it feels safety wise travelling on Stagecoach services in the city and surrounds compared to Go Ahead Citybus, so must be a company approach?

Apparently go south coast has same approach as pcb and TfC so guessing company wide
 

Ian10

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I’m not very familiar with the Bodmin area but have been looking at the 176 Launceston to Bodmin Road (sorry Parkway!)
timetable. Would anyone be able to comment whether this service is designed as a Bodmin town service, a Callywith College bus or a rail link to Parkway? Or not likely to carry many passengers?
Whatever it is supposed to be the result is the same - empty buses on the 176 and on many other new routes and services which enjoy double the previous service. I hope the council taxpayers of Cornwall feel that their +£12m a year is being well spent. (I don’!)
 

Lizard1324

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Used to see an elderly (mid 80s) couple in Sainsbury's Penzance at the same time, late afternoon weekdays. He used to sit on the seats by the exits to the checkout while she did the shopping, then they'd go outside to the seat nearest to the bus stop and get on a 16 bus, then operated by FK. I haven't seen them since the lockdown and the changed bus arrangements, which is doubtless not just because of the bus times. Another regular twice-weekly user of this particular bus working was a friend of mine from Ludgvan Churchtown with a bus pass, but also a mean streak, and he'd now prefer to drag his battered old Cortina, or whatever, and pay for petrol, than risk a bus not turning up.
Its the same here in the lizard with tfc 34, when I used to get the later L1 on a Friday morning and while waiting for the bus I would chat with some of the elderly passengers, and alot of the time I would get this very nice male bus driver who is very chatty and a very nice man and we would have a chat while we wait for the time to leave especially when he would be the driver for my college bus some days, he would great and say hello to everybody.

But after seeing her and talking to her for the first time for along while due to coronavirus and college being closed so I've had no need to use a bus, she has said she has purchased a old banger of a car becuase she says that she does not feel safe with the way tfc are dealing or not dealing with coronavirus and cleaning, she said that there are no seating separation and that the buses don't have the same atmosphere as first kernows do, she means by this as comforts like nice seats and wifi and charging ability but the main concern was the drivers she said they dont really care that much, likes they don't great or had a talk when there driving or help and concerns of the passnagers like first did.
She said that when / if kernow return to the lizard she will wait for there buses as they are better.
I did say to her about the l1 might not return this year but she said she would just use the early morning college buses run by first meaning she would wake up early and be early to the place but she said it is worth it.
 

richw

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Its the same here in the lizard with tfc 34, when I used to get the later L1 on a Friday morning and while waiting for the bus I would chat with some of the elderly passengers, and alot of the time I would get this very nice male bus driver who is very chatty and a very nice man and we would have a chat while we wait for the time to leave especially when he would be the driver for my college bus some days, he would great and say hello to everybody.

But after seeing her and talking to her for the first time for along while due to coronavirus and college being closed so I've had no need to use a bus, she has said she has purchased a old banger of a car becuase she says that she does not feel safe with the way tfc are dealing or not dealing with coronavirus and cleaning, she said that there are no seating separation and that the buses don't have the same atmosphere as first kernows do, she means by this as comforts like nice seats and wifi and charging ability but the main concern was the drivers she said they dont really care that much, likes they don't great or had a talk when there driving or help and concerns of the passnagers like first did.
She said that when / if kernow return to the lizard she will wait for there buses as they are better.
I did say to her about the l1 might not return this year but she said she would just use the early morning college buses run by first meaning she would wake up early and be early to the place but she said it is worth it.

Her views isn’t an isolated case. I’m hearing the same over and over, people are waiting for, and paying more to use a less frequent First service between Newquay and St Columb minor for the Same reasons you mention. We are starting to see a lot of loyalty to a brand that is trusted more than I even started to realise.
 

Lizard1324

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Her views isn’t an isolated case. I’m hearing the same over and over, people are waiting for, and paying more to use a less frequent First service between Newquay and St Columb minor for the Same reasons you mention. We are starting to see a lot of loyalty to a brand that is trusted more than I even started to realise.
Ye unfortunately I think alot of people are feeling the same way, with seeing the drivers i know from previous company's and the things / reasons for them being fired from a previous operator I wont feel safe on there bus, to be honest tfc bus damage isn't a surprise when you look at the newly acquired drivers reasons for being fired.
Just got to hope that first return the l1 this summer but it is unlikely.
 

MarkC

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Ye unfortunately I think alot of people are feeling the same way, with seeing the drivers i know from previous company's and the things / reasons for them being fired from a previous operator I wont feel safe on there bus, to be honest tfc bus damage isn't a surprise when you look at the newly acquired drivers reasons for being fired.
Just got to hope that first return the l1 this summer but it is unlikely.

Good on the common sense of the people of Kernow... I only wish the folk of Plymouth had done the same and not allowed Go Ahead to push First out of the city. First were cheaper more reliable and had a good bunch of drivers. Sadly Stagecoach who came onto Plymouth to replace First whilst still being cheaper by far and more reliable just don't seem interested in competition like First were. Hopefully one day after Covid they might! On the main corridor 8nto city where there is competition Stagecoach are substantially cheaper tho. A return to the city from where I am is half the price with Stagecoach than Go Ahead as am exapmle.
 

Busaholic

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Good on the common sense of the people of Kernow... I only wish the folk of Plymouth had done the same and not allowed Go Ahead to push First out of the city. First were cheaper more reliable and had a good bunch of drivers. Sadly Stagecoach who came onto Plymouth to replace First whilst still being cheaper by far and more reliable just don't seem interested in competition like First were. Hopefully one day after Covid they might! On the main corridor 8nto city where there is competition Stagecoach are substantially cheaper tho. A return to the city from where I am is half the price with Stagecoach than Go Ahead as am exapmle.
I commented on this forum at the time when Stagecoach replaced First in Plymouth that the former's statement they weren't interested in competition with Citybus was a bold one to make publically, regardless of what they were thinking in private. In days gone by that could have led to an immediate enquiry by the Monopolies people, but they've come away smarting in more recent times by trying to intervene in bus matters, as Stagecoach well knew!
 

TheGrandWazoo

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I’m not very familiar with the Bodmin area but have been looking at the 176 Launceston to Bodmin Road (sorry Parkway!)
timetable. Would anyone be able to comment whether this service is designed as a Bodmin town service, a Callywith College bus or a rail link to Parkway? Or not likely to carry many passengers?

One of my many issues with the Cornwall Council package. One of a number of services created out of nothing so no established market and no obvious future one either. Even before Covid, when bus services are in enough trouble, the largesse in spending money like that is crazy.

As @richw says, there's only a very limited market for people travelling between West Cornwall and Launceston so @RELL6L probably had a representative trip on it (i.e. zero passengers other than him)

Good on the common sense of the people of Kernow... I only wish the folk of Plymouth had done the same and not allowed Go Ahead to push First out of the city. First were cheaper more reliable and had a good bunch of drivers. Sadly Stagecoach who came onto Plymouth to replace First whilst still being cheaper by far and more reliable just don't seem interested in competition like First were. Hopefully one day after Covid they might! On the main corridor 8nto city where there is competition Stagecoach are substantially cheaper tho. A return to the city from where I am is half the price with Stagecoach than Go Ahead as am exapmle.

Hang on a minute. Remember that it was First who was the initial aggressor in the Plymouth bus war and effectively forced the good folk of Plymouth to sell their bus operation to Go Ahead at a lower price than the original intention to sell may have realised otherwise?

Also, First had sent in a fleet of modern B7RLEs and MPDs to compete but soon spirited those away as PCB retaliated.

Yes, First were cheaper but then again, they had a very old fleet. Once the Ugobus fleet went, it was pretty bad, and ancient by the end. When in close down mode, even the e400s had moved to Cornwall and it was a mix of dodgy B7Ls, some 2004/5 Tridents plus the odd more modern Solo, a load of elderly Tridents and ancient Darts and B6s.

Perhaps Stagecoach realised that Go Ahead wouldn't be a pushover and it was a more sensible approach than the failed Ugobus adventure?
 

richw

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Hang on a minute. Remember that it was First who was the initial aggressor in the Plymouth bus war and effectively forced the good folk of Plymouth to sell their bus operation to Go Ahead at a lower price than the original intention to sell may have realised otherwise?

Also, First had sent in a fleet of modern B7RLEs and MPDs to compete but soon spirited those away as PCB retaliated.

Yes, First were cheaper but then again, they had a very old fleet. Once the Ugobus fleet went, it was pretty bad, and ancient by the end. When in close down mode, even the e400s had moved to Cornwall and it was a mix of dodgy B7Ls, some 2004/5 Tridents plus the odd more modern Solo, a load of elderly Tridents and ancient Darts and B6s.

Perhaps Stagecoach realised that Go Ahead wouldn't be a pushover and it was a more sensible approach than the failed Ugobus adventure?

although First left, citybus were the financial losers over the last decade. Reported to have lost tens of millions between 2010-2015
 

MarkC

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although First left, citybus were the financial losers over the last decade. Reported to have lost tens of millions between 2010-2015

Yes. First were quite clever with their game plan. They got Citybus into bus war where Go Ahead lost loads on routes like Tavistock and Torppint whilst running old buses on city routes with fares that Citybus couldn't match resulting in Citybus losing money on their established routes....the 3a for example made a real dent on 61/62 in Peverell, Honiknowle and Pennycross. They them sold the depot to Stagecoach making some money and now concentrating on money making Cornwall whilst Citybus have to charge high fares to make up for previous losses. If Stagecoach were to make a move in the city it could be very interesting. History could repeat itself in Cornwall I think with FK getting one over GC bus again.
 

TheGrandWazoo

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although First left, citybus were the financial losers over the last decade. Reported to have lost tens of millions between 2010-2015
Not even close. Reported operating profits for PCB were

2009 - £1186k
2010 - £469k
2011 - £515k
2012 - £987k
2013 - £808k
2014 - £156k
2015 - £504k
2016 - £784k


Yes. First were quite clever with their game plan. They got Citybus into bus war where Go Ahead lost loads on routes like Tavistock and Torppint whilst running old buses on city routes with fares that Citybus couldn't match resulting in Citybus losing money on their established routes....the 3a for example made a real dent on 61/62 in Peverell, Honiknowle and Pennycross. They them sold the depot to Stagecoach making some money and now concentrating on money making Cornwall whilst Citybus have to charge high fares to make up for previous losses. If Stagecoach were to make a move in the city it could be very interesting. History could repeat itself in Cornwall I think with FK getting one over GC bus again.
Come off it. First had to move out virtually everything with depreciation on it (save the EL Tridents) to staunch their losses.


Let’s not be rewriting history. 2014 loss for FDC (£3637k) and for 2015 (£8836k). The sale to Stagecoach was for £1. The losses recorded reflect the asset impairment so they didn’t make money, but avoided some of the exit costs. Might also add that FSW lost a further £4039k in 2016.

First South West is much changed and improved. It’s a well run operation. PCB have taken on the CC tenders and clearly need to get a grip on things.

However, to suggest that First were somehow the winner of the Plymouth is frankly just not true, as is talk of PCB having to make up for earlier losses.
 

jammy36

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although First left, citybus were the financial losers over the last decade. Reported to have lost tens of millions between 2010-2015
Where does this tends of millions figure come from? The company accounts are reported and freely available online for all to see. Where is this loss reported? I'm not an accountant, but in this period it would appear (other than a blip related to performance of pension funds, during a global economic crisis) that Citybus were consistent returning a small profit.

The company was sold by the council not because it was lots making, but because of their desire to sell (privitise) assets to realise funds. Go Ahead were willing to pay over £20 million for Citybus if I recall.

Contrast with First during that period who were losing millions of pounds hand over fist - in First corporate speak the business had "underperformed over a number of years". Hence the nominal fee paid by Stagecoach.

Yes. First were quite clever with their game plan. They got Citybus into bus war where Go Ahead lost loads on routes like Tavistock and Torppint whilst running old buses on city routes with fares that Citybus couldn't match resulting in Citybus losing money on their established routes....the 3a for example made a real dent on 61/62 in Peverell, Honiknowle and Pennycross. They them sold the depot to Stagecoach making some money and now concentrating on money making Cornwall whilst Citybus have to charge high fares to make up for previous losses. If Stagecoach were to make a move in the city it could be very interesting. History could repeat itself in Cornwall I think with FK getting one over GC bus again.

This seems like historical retcon in the extreme - First was a basket case in this period and it seems incredible to suggest this was actually some grand strategy.
 

Rich McLean

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The Advantage Citybus had was it had pretty much City Wide coverage from the get go excluding Plymstock, Tavistock, Torpoint and Saltash from the point Go-Ahead took over.

Over the years, they experimented in Torpoint, Plymstock, Saltash, Tavistock, Barne Barton and later into West Cornwall taking over WG routes, into what we have now. They pulled out of Tavistock completely once Stagecoach took over and reduced their service provision within Saltash itself (apart from the 5/A every 30 minutes), with the 11 and 12s not going around the houses, as the 2 currently does.

Stagecoach maybe cheaper for a day ticket, but the coverage is nowhere near what PCB cover, so you may as well buy a skipper anyway or stick with PCB if you need to get to most plcaes in the city. If Stagecoach were to cover larger areas of the City with a network size on par with PCB, then no doubt their tickets would be near to or just as expensive as PCB.
 

MarkC

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The Advantage Citybus had was it had pretty much City Wide coverage from the get go excluding Plymstock, Tavistock, Torpoint and Saltash from the point Go-Ahead took over.

Over the years, they experimented in Torpoint, Plymstock, Saltash, Tavistock, Barne Barton and later into West Cornwall taking over WG routes, into what we have now. They pulled out of Tavistock completely once Stagecoach took over and reduced their service provision within Saltash itself (apart from the 5/A every 30 minutes), with the 11 and 12s not going around the houses, as the 2 currently does.

Stagecoach maybe cheaper for a day ticket, but the coverage is nowhere near what PCB cover, so you may as well buy a skipper anyway or stick with PCB if you need to get to most plcaes in the city. If Stagecoach were to cover larger areas of the City with a network size on par with PCB, then no doubt their tickets would be near to or just as expensive as PCB.
That is very true re coverage personally I would be happy to pay a bit more to have a better network coverage from Stagecoach. I guess i am lucky in that everywhere I need to go in and around Plymouth is covered by Stagecoach as well as Citybus.
 

TheGrandWazoo

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The Advantage Citybus had was it had pretty much City Wide coverage from the get go excluding Plymstock, Tavistock, Torpoint and Saltash from the point Go-Ahead took over.

Over the years, they experimented in Torpoint, Plymstock, Saltash, Tavistock, Barne Barton and later into West Cornwall taking over WG routes, into what we have now. They pulled out of Tavistock completely once Stagecoach took over and reduced their service provision within Saltash itself (apart from the 5/A every 30 minutes), with the 11 and 12s not going around the houses, as the 2 currently does.

Stagecoach maybe cheaper for a day ticket, but the coverage is nowhere near what PCB cover, so you may as well buy a skipper anyway or stick with PCB if you need to get to most plcaes in the city. If Stagecoach were to cover larger areas of the City with a network size on par with PCB, then no doubt their tickets would be near to or just as expensive as PCB.

Remember that Ugobus was a First initiative that did cover the city, initially to undermine PCB and then to scupper the sale. What then happened was that First were losing their shirts once PCB had the backing of a major group and then had to back away, withdrawing much of the Ugobus network. PCB however then pursued the battle to Tavi and Torpoint etc.

First were hammered and the operation that was left was sold for a nominal £1 to Stagecoach if only to avoid the redundancy costs etc. Go Ahead and Stagecoach knew there was no way that they could have a war so quickly retreated to their territories.
 

Rich McLean

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Remember that Ugobus was a First initiative that did cover the city, initially to undermine PCB and then to scupper the sale. What then happened was that First were losing their shirts once PCB had the backing of a major group and then had to back away, withdrawing much of the Ugobus network. PCB however then pursued the battle to Tavi and Torpoint etc.

First were hammered and the operation that was left was sold for a nominal £1 to Stagecoach if only to avoid the redundancy costs etc. Go Ahead and Stagecoach knew there was no way that they could have a war so quickly retreated to their territories.

I remember Ugobus. With it, they changed the whole numbering system of well established routes, which confused many locals. In Plymstock with the 5 and 6 (which is almost identical to PCB 5/5A), by the 5 now doing the Mount Gould loop and rerouting the 6 so it only went one way round the Holmwood Avenue loop as a terminus from the Staddiscombe end caused a lot of complaints at the time, with longer journey times. That opened the doors for PCB to register the 5 and 5A, copying the old 5&6, and apart from Oreston who stayed loyal, first lost a lot of custom on that route. PCB have also tried and failed on the Hooe corridor, which First and then stagecoach won the battle with the 2 (formerly the 7A many moons ago). If first left the 5 & 6 alone, I dare say the The Ride ops would still be operating it today and having the monopoly in Plymstock.

Plympton was always well covered by PCB, so first retreated. They lost Keyham to PCB, which they held for many years prior to Ugobus.

If their routes were more carefully planned out then they may have come out of the other side. When it was the Overground with coloured routes, such as the green, purple, orange, blue, red etc, it was easy to understand. Ugobus may have been great for some areas, but they forgot about their bread and butter by placing clapped out P and R reg darts on altered routes, with the odd vintage step dart and Olympian thrown in, and lost out.

After that, they retreated, slashed fares and became the bargain basement operation using old bangers, with the Purple Pound in Efford being a prime example, forgetting that many in that area are on passes anyway.
 

richw

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Not even close. Reported operating profits for PCB were

2009 - £1186k
2010 - £469k
2011 - £515k
2012 - £987k
2013 - £808k
2014 - £156k
2015 - £504k
2016 - £784k



Come off it. First had to move out virtually everything with depreciation on it (save the EL Tridents) to staunch their losses.


Let’s not be rewriting history. 2014 loss for FDC (£3637k) and for 2015 (£8836k). The sale to Stagecoach was for £1. The losses recorded reflect the asset impairment so they didn’t make money, but avoided some of the exit costs. Might also add that FSW lost a further £4039k in 2016.

First South West is much changed and improved. It’s a well run operation. PCB have taken on the CC tenders and clearly need to get a grip on things.

However, to suggest that First were somehow the winner of the Plymouth is frankly just not true, as is talk of PCB having to make up for earlier losses.
Where does this tends of millions figure come from? The company accounts are reported and freely available online for all to see. Where is this loss reported? I'm not an accountant, but in this period it would appear (other than a blip related to performance of pension funds, during a global economic crisis) that Citybus were consistent returning a small profit.

The company was sold by the council not because it was lots making, but because of their desire to sell (privitise) assets to realise funds. Go Ahead were willing to pay over £20 million for Citybus if I recall.

Contrast with First during that period who were losing millions of pounds hand over fist - in First corporate speak the business had "underperformed over a number of years". Hence the nominal fee paid by Stagecoach.



This seems like historical retcon in the extreme - First was a basket case in this period and it seems incredible to suggest this was actually some grand strategy.

In the full accounts I’m told was millions of stakeholder investment to pcb
 

MarkC

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In the full accounts I’m told was millions of stakeholder investment to pcb

Yes the figures quoted aren't real. Investors and GA shareholders were propping them up and the shareholders weren't happy with the money being lost in bus war with First. PCB was one of if not the worst performing op in GA, and to be honest I think still are near the bottom now. It seems now that GA have moved newer buses to Cornwall whilst flooding Plymouth streets with 2nd hand stuff from Brighton and Poole,/Bournemouth. Looks a total mess like we are the forgotten part of GA network. At least you can see Stagecoach buses here...They are easily identifiable and quite new in the main, PCB are all sorts of colours and brands.
 

MB162435

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Yes the figures quoted aren't real. Investors and GA shareholders were propping them up and the shareholders weren't happy with the money being lost in bus war with First. PCB was one of if not the worst performing op in GA, and to be honest I think still are near the bottom now. It seems now that GA have moved newer buses to Cornwall whilst flooding Plymouth streets with 2nd hand stuff from Brighton and Poole,/Bournemouth. Looks a total mess like we are the forgotten part of GA network. At least you can see Stagecoach buses here...They are easily identifiable and quite new in the main, PCB are all sorts of colours and brands.
Although it's the same thing as what Kernow have done, with a mixture of types of buses in different liveries while the main buses are away fulfilling a contract

Most of the 2nd hand stuff in Plymouth is only while TfC wait for the delayed ADL buses to be delivered, although believe some are being kept permanently
 

TheGrandWazoo

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In the full accounts I’m told was millions of stakeholder investment to pcb
Yes the figures quoted aren't real. Investors and GA shareholders were propping them up and the shareholders weren't happy with the money being lost in bus war with First. PCB was one of if not the worst performing op in GA, and to be honest I think still are near the bottom now. It seems now that GA have moved newer buses to Cornwall whilst flooding Plymouth streets with 2nd hand stuff from Brighton and Poole,/Bournemouth. Looks a total mess like we are the forgotten part of GA network. At least you can see Stagecoach buses here...They are easily identifiable and quite new in the main, PCB are all sorts of colours and brands.

Those are the published financial results and relate to operating profit. You'll be able to highlight the appropriate figures to substantiate those assertions?

It should be noted that FDC/FSW was loss making for years; it's to the immense credit of the current management and employees that they are now returning good profits. However, the fact is that the operating losses were underwritten by the group; can't see that in the PCB figures but as I say, happy to be corrected.

As has been well documented, Go Ahead needed to mobilise a number of additional vehicles to meet the new Cornish requirements via new dealer stock vehicles and the council owned vehicles returned by FK. They have also ordered additional new vehicles but because of the disparity between lead times and the council imposed timetable for introducing the new network, they had to draft in vehicles into Plymouth temporarily to release age compliant vehicles to Cornwall.

That the loan vehicles should have temporary fleetnames on them isn't in question; they should have them and they should be recognisably PCB even if not in the correct livery. That loan vehicles aren't in the correct livery is understandable however; it would be churlish to criticise them for that, in much the same way that First Kernow were using newly arrived Geminis in a variety of liveries.

Where I do agree is the mess that PCB have with a number of different livery styles and brands. You can cut a bit of slack when you move from one livery style to another; we're beginning to see the introduction of the new Stagecoach scheme (with one of the first repaints being a 2004 Dart) so you'll soon have the same issue there. However, the sheer number of different brands and styles does need sorting and tidying up, in line with a better focus on fleet presentation; clearly an issue with both PCB and the new Cornish operations where accident damage is clearly of epidemic (!) proportions.
 

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