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Optare: The future (and is there one?)

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GusB

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This thread has sparked a fair bit of debate, and I wanted to divert focus away from Reading's orders and ask whether or not we feel that Optare has any real kind of future.

My first encounter with any Optare vehicle was when a Delta demonstrator did the rounds in the late 1980s. Compared to what was on the road at the time, it looked very modern. It was only a couple of years later that the Vecta and Spectra came along, each built on a different manufacturers' platform. When the Solo came along, I thought it was a good product and was delighted that I no longer had to put up with rattly Mercs, but the evening bus services came to an end soon afterwards.

At what point do you think they went wrong? Was it when they decided to go all integral and move away from the "body-on-underframe/chassis" model which they seemed to do quite well for a time?
 
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Jordan Adam

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At what point do you think they went wrong? Was it when they decided to go all integral and move away from the "body-on-underframe/chassis" model which they seemed to do quite well for a time?

This is probably the biggest factor along with build quality issues, lack of innovation and poor delivery schedules.

Also keep in mind that the Olympus ended production in 2011 as did the Omnidekka but that had already stopped being offered around 2008 and was only still in production due to an agreement with NCT. The Metrodecker although launched the following year was only a prototype / 'proof of concept' vehicle which was not put in production and it wasn't until 2014 that the Metrodecker we know now finally came along. So that's basically three years of now double deck product, three years where operators could and did switch to other manufacturers. These once loyal ELC/Optare customers were already buying large numbers of Enviros, Geminis (and later Evosetis) in those three years, so once the Metrodecker came along they would've had very little interest in a product that was non-standard by that point. Perhaps more objectively there's then also the fact the Metrodecker isn't that good, it's very much style before substance and parked next to a brand new E400MMC it seems quite dated.

As i noted in another thread the Versa is away to turn 14 years old in two months. While it may still look fairly modern and has been updated it's still at it's core a 14 year old product, to put that in perspective it pre-dates the second generation Enviro300! In my opinion the Versa should've been dropped when the Metrocity came along, i find it odd that Optare market the Versa as a luxury bus and the Metrocity as a cheap to run city bus when they're both the exact same bus but with a different front!
 

37114

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It seemed to go wrong after the Darwen/East Lancs merger, which no doubt took focus away from customers to internal restructuring. Also the ageing product line up and lead time for new decker stems from some of their cash flow woes pre Ashok Leyland buying them. I remember reading an article in the press that said due to their size (pre AL) they were paying higher prices on key raw materials due to minimum order quantities and how it was one of the first things AL addresses as they then used the bigger group scale to buy at a cheaper price.

The challenge for the current owner is a tough one as they need to give Optare a lot of investment to upgrade/create their product range but this is probably the worst moment in history to be having to make investment decisions. They have a modern factory building and I suspect a flexible labour force without loads of legacy staff T&C's and have shown with things like the order for circa 140 buses for the middle East they can still cut win those size orders but they are rare wins.

The other problem they have is their core home market is on its knees with so many new orders on hold, with 1 strong competitor, 1 competitor getting back on its feet and having recent orders, with Optare being the third relation. It feels that Optare are missing not having a strong anchor customer for their products that gives them volume and flexibility in the factory. Stagecoach and ADL is a case in point where ADL know with some certainty they have say 50 double deck buses per year to the same spec that they can slot into the construction schedule and gives them volume but also the ability to manage their cash flow. Optare don't have that.

I think within the next 3 years will determine Optares future; either they start to grow and become a bigger player or they disappear....
 

fgwrich

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The other problem they have is their core home market is on its knees with so many new orders on hold, with 1 strong competitor, 1 competitor getting back on its feet and having recent orders, with Optare being the third relation. It feels that Optare are missing not having a strong anchor customer for their products that gives them volume and flexibility in the factory. Stagecoach and ADL is a case in point where ADL know with some certainty they have say 50 double deck buses per year to the same spec that they can slot into the construction schedule and gives them volume but also the ability to manage their cash flow. Optare don't have that.

I think within the next 3 years will determine Optares future; either they start to grow and become a bigger player or they disappear....

Thinking about this bit for a moment (the rest I do fully agree with), Who would you define as Optare's biggest competitor? I would have to define it as Wrights - The Solo has probably been Optare's defining vehicle, and probably their most produced. While ADL Does offer the E200MMC in Midi form, I would have say possibly the biggest damage over the past 10 years has been from Wrights in the form of the Streetlite. They may not be popular with enthusiasts, but since 2010 the Streetlite has certainly found popularity with a lot of the big OPCO's who would have otherwise previously purchased the equivalent Solo or Versa from Optare (E.g Arriva, First and Go-Ahead).

Of course, now would be the perfect time for Optare to really get it's act together and pull itself out a lead over the crippled Wrights, Covid & Industry depending.

Oddly, I would also pinpoint a time when started to really loose confidence was around the time when they came up with the Rapta+ concept. A fairly smart and almost blocky design (Note the early influences for the later ADL MMC Stylings) which didn't seem to get them anywhere, before hiding away back in the cupboard and sticking back to the rather ugly bulbous designs we have of today (Solo R / Versa / Metrocity / Metrodecker).

 

LOL The Irony

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Oddly, I would also pinpoint a time when started to really loose confidence was around the time when they came up with the Rapta+ concept. A fairly smart and almost blocky design (Note the early influences for the later ADL MMC Stylings) which didn't seem to get them anywhere, before hiding away back in the cupboard and sticking back to the rather ugly bulbous designs we have of today (Solo R / Versa / Metrocity / Metrodecker).
ADL nicked the styling for the E400 MMC from the Rapta, there's no beating about the bush. There's also no beating about the bush that Optare were stupid not to make it or the Solo+.
 

cnjb8

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ADL nicked the styling for the E400 MMC from the Rapta, there's no beating about the bush. There's also no beating about the bush that Optare were stupid not to make it or the Solo+.
Them not making the Solo+ was strange, the FJ09 Solos TrentBarton have were originally meant to be Solo+ vehicles apparently. That was a start.
 

Jordan Adam

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Thinking about this bit for a moment (the rest I do fully agree with), Who would you define as Optare's biggest competitor? I would have to define it as Wrights - The Solo has probably been Optare's defining vehicle, and probably their most produced. While ADL Does offer the E200MMC in Midi form, I would have say possibly the biggest damage over the past 10 years has been from Wrights in the form of the Streetlite. They may not be popular with enthusiasts, but since 2010 the Streetlite has certainly found popularity with a lot of the big OPCO's who would have otherwise previously purchased the equivalent Solo or Versa from Optare (E.g Arriva, First and Go-Ahead).

Of course, now would be the perfect time for Optare to really get it's act together and pull itself out a lead over the crippled Wrights, Covid & Industry depending.

Oddly, I would also pinpoint a time when started to really loose confidence was around the time when they came up with the Rapta+ concept. A fairly smart and almost blocky design (Note the early influences for the later ADL MMC Stylings) which didn't seem to get them anywhere, before hiding away back in the cupboard and sticking back to the rather ugly bulbous designs we have of today (Solo R / Versa / Metrocity / Metrodecker).


I would on the section i've put in bold disagree on the basis that in the years prior to First buying Streetlites their main new single decker types were Enviro200s, Enviro300s and B7RLEs not Versas.

It's interesting you bring up the Rapta, there was also the Solo+ that never really took off along with a string of body on van/truck chassis designs such as the Toro, Soroco & Bonita (Ford Transit).

Then more recently there was another Optare Bonito but this time a low floor product based on a Fiat Ducato chassis that was offered from 2012 to 2014, perhaps Optare's biggest failure yet given that it was put in to production and never saw a single sale!
 

cnjb8

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I would on the section i've put in bold disagree on the basis that in the years prior to First buying Streetlites their main new single decker types were Enviro200s, Enviro300s and B7RLEs not Versas.

It's interesting you bring up the Rapta, there was also the Solo+ that never really took off along with a string of body on van/truck chassis designs such as the Toro, Soroco & Bonita (Ford Transit).

Then more recently there was another Optare Bonito but this time a low floor product based on a Fiat Ducato chassis that was offered from 2012 to 2014, perhaps Optare's biggest failure yet given that it was put in to production and never saw a single sale!
And First continued to buy Solos, they didn't switch to the StreetLite WF bus.
 

Jordan Adam

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Them not making the Solo+ was strange, the FJ09 Solos TrentBarton have were originally meant to be Solo+ vehicles apparently. That was a start.

The Solo+ never made any sense given that the Solo SR had not long entered production and had fairly stable orders.

On that note another mistake Optare made was not retiring the original Solo when the Solo SR came along, instead they offered both models for about 5 years.

And First continued to buy Solos, they didn't switch to the StreetLite WF bus.

Indeed.
 

M803UYA

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Optare's specialty was the Solo, in differing lengths supplied in a reasonably fast time frame. This made it popular with the smaller operators and with operators who needed vehicles quickly. To some extent they still have that market, but somewhat reduced thanks to pressures on local authority budgets.

Their products were also stylish, ahead of their time and this made them popular. For years there have been quality control issues, Trent Barton were loyal purchasers for years, went away, came back. There are operators who swear by Optare products, understand them and how to get the best from them (Lynx in Kings Lynn spring to mind here with their Tempo fleet - the experience of them was gained when the directors ran konectbus), then there are others to swear at them.

It is interesting how many big operators have gone in for first batches of Optare products, but you seldom see repeat business.

East Lancs were for a long time the bodybuilder of choice for the smaller operator, or for operators who needed small batches of double decker buses. For a time the triaxle Olympus was popular with those needing a high capacity vehicle to do local coach work.

That business Optare walked away from and ADL has quite successfully targeted those operators.

The Metrodecker, to me, looks like all the other double decker products on the market, which is disappointing, as Optare traditionally led the way in styling. I saw the prototype E400 MMC back in 2014 when it visited the operator I was working for - it didn't strike me as a copy of something else, the Enviro origins were pretty clear to see, but the design had evolved. In late 2016 I travelled on some built to price Stagecoach ones in Exeter, which were a year old and they were still quite fresh and impressive. We then bought 6 brand new ones in 2017 (after Wrights finally set fire to us as a customer) and they worked pretty much out of the box. Earlier in my career I worked for a Stagecoach subsidiary and we received a large batch of Scania Enviro 400s, which began to show their iffy build quality after 6 months service so I would have been expecting to see water leaks and the standard traditional Alexander rattling nuts in the coving panels.....!

Out of all the modern generation buses available to buy, it's the ADL MMC range I like most.

I detect some frustration in Reading's public statement - to wait 2 years for 5 buses is staggering given the high profile nature of the order. It will hardly encourage others to buy examples.
 

M803UYA

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And First continued to buy Solos, they didn't switch to the StreetLite WF bus.
Very strange they've not bought those, given their enthusiasm for the standard and max versions - parts commonality would have been a massive selling point surely?
 

Jordan Adam

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Very strange they've not bought those, given their enthusiasm for the standard and max versions - parts commonality would have been a massive selling point surely?

Perhaps at the time but enthusiasm for Streetlites at First died almost 5 years ago, the only ones they've bought in recent times are those funded through local authorities such as Sheffield. All buses First buy these days (except the Leeds Streetdecks) are ADLs. Although veering off topic that no doubt played a part in the fall at Wrightbus, much in the same way that Stagecoach don't buy Solos in big numbers anymore.

I do think Optare could have a future, but they need to find their niche again and bring something to the table that can really compete with the ADL MMC range. As i mentioned a few posts up i think the current Optare range while decent very much puts style before substance, when we got our Versas 10 years ago drivers complained about the blind spots caused by the a pillars, long front overhang, poor cab layout and poor turning circle, 10 years later Optare have not done anything to fix any of that, it's a shame as putting those aside they were good buses.
 

cnjb8

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Perhaps at the time but enthusiasm for Streetlites at First died almost 5 years ago, the only ones they've bought in recent times are those funded through local authorities such as Sheffield. All buses First buy these days (except the Leeds Streetdecks) are ADLs. Although veering off topic that no doubt played a part in the fall at Wrightbus, much in the same way that Stagecoach don't buy Solos in big numbers anymore.

I do think Optare could have a future, but they need to find their niche again and bring something to the table that can really compete with the ADL MMC range. As i mentioned a few posts up i think the current Optare range while decent very much puts style before substance, when we got our Versas 10 years ago drivers complained about the blind spots caused by the a pillars, long front overhang, poor cab layout and poor turning circle, 10 years later Optare have not done anything to fix any of that, it's a shame as putting those aside they were good buses.
Their niche might be double deck electrics, although not really enough for a niche and major competition from ADL and BYD.
 

M803UYA

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Is First's lack of purchasing more reflective of their financial issues, rather than a lack of interest in the product? They're happily buying Streetdecks and are keen buyers of ADL MMC models - which to me appears like a sensible dual sourcing policy.

The reduction in tendered bus routes since 2010 will have impacted on demand for 'mid sized' buses across the industry but despite Stagecoach's issues with Optare (traced back to 2007 when details of the Preston Citi solos in build were leaked to Preston Bus) they have been back for more examples. They don't have an ongoing need for that size of vehicle, so it doesn't feature in the annual orders - rather they're buying to replace existing vehicles. First are the same, their need of smaller 29 seater size vehicles is not what it was.

It does leave Optare at an interesting crossroads as you say. Which is why the Reading order would have been a good start into an area they used to do well in.

Perhaps at the time but enthusiasm for Streetlites at First died almost 5 years ago, the only ones they've bought in recent times are those funded through local authorities such as Sheffield. All buses First buy these days (except the Leeds Streetdecks) are ADLs. Although veering off topic that no doubt played a part in the fall at Wrightbus, much in the same way that Stagecoach don't buy Solos in big numbers anymore.

I do think Optare could have a future, but they need to find their niche again and bring something to the table that can really compete with the ADL MMC range. As i mentioned a few posts up i think the current Optare range while decent very much puts style before substance, when we got our Versas 10 years ago drivers complained about the blind spots caused by the a pillars, long front overhang, poor cab layout and poor turning circle, 10 years later Optare have not done anything to fix any of that, it's a shame as putting those aside they were good buses.
 

buslad1988

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Optare have always seemed slow to evolve their double deck offering. The Spectra (whilst a great bus) was offered up until 2003/2004 and styling originated from step entrance days.

The Excel 1/2’s and Solos were fairly uniformed (headlights/body/rear layout) and it would have been nice to see a double deck version of these (DAF chassis). No doubt Nottingham City Transport, Ipswich Buses, Reading Buses, Blackpool Transport etc would have been interested.

Clearly all personal preference but the Tempo never really cut it for me. The Excels (despite their flaws) were so striking and modern when launched the Tempo failed to create as much excitement. In the rush to low floor the Solo was first choice for independents/municipals even though Dart MPD’s were on the market. First/Stagecoach also took them in great numbers.

Not persevering with the Rapta / Solo + was a big disappointment. I recall the big fanfare and unveiling of them at the NEC and they seemed so modern and different to anything on offer.

The current Metrodecker and Metrocity just seem like glazed boxes on wheels. It’s as though they put all their effort into getting them lightweight then tried to make them look appealing afterwards.
 

CBlue

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Quality control (or lack of) has always kept Optare away from the mainstream operators, IMO. The Solo only worked because it filled a niche replacing step-entrance minibuses and offered a reasonable ride, even if they weren't always put together that well. The local Stagecoach firm had some brand new in 2006, and the production line workers seemed to have very thoughtfully left some spare screws in the roof cavity just incase they were ever needed. They're probably still rolling back and forth in there today.

A drinking buddy who works in fleet maintenance for a national operator always joked that major work (like an engine swap) on a Volvo or Scania bus is far easier to fix than a minor electrical issue on an Optare!
 

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What is the saying? What do you want? Price. Quality. Speed. Pick two. Think Optare need to find another one!

They feel like a zombie company now, tired, old products and they appear to lack whatever it is they need to refresh the range - as proven by the Metrodecker to a point, they have continued to be bankrolled but do they have the ability to convince the industry they can deliver the goods and the goods are worth having?

If you were a purchaser for a big group like Stagecoach would you be comfortable going to your boss and pushing for 100 Metrodeckers instead of 400MMCs?

You've got to assume that Wright's Streetlite/Streetdeck is the main direct competitor for pretty much the entirety of the Optare range as I'm assuming the ADL 200/400MMC range is priced higher.

I think there is space for a third major player in the UK Domestic market, but I'm not convinced Optare continue to earn that place on merit or reputation.
 

upasalmon

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It depends on the intentions of Ashok Leyland who rescued Optare from bankruptcy a few years back (at one stage their shares were 0.25 of a penny). AL have a subsidiary in the Czech Republic as well. Things to consider.

CORRECTION -Ashok Leyland closed its Czech Republic subsidiary AVIA in 2013. Apologies.
 
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CN04NRJ

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Cardiff Bus had tremendous problems with their Optares, corrosion being the biggest issue and extremely poor reliability (as well as grounding issues) of the Excels leading to them being sold when less than 4 years old.

This had a lasting effect and when looking for large numbers of replacement single decks post 2012 they wouldn't accept even a demonstrator vehicle from Optare based on past experience.

My only personal experience of driving an Optare in service was an ex Cardiff Bus Excel with Edwards Coaches and a preserved Metrorider although basically the same type of vehicle as the
CB SPDs I'd later come to drive (Cummins and Alison B300Rs) the excel was absolutely woeful. It spent most of it's time parked due to its horrendous fuel consumption. Comparable SPDs I think managed much better fuel consumption - I'm assuming the Optare body was significantly heavier?

The Metrorider was again basically the same drivetrain as a step entrance dart (although front engined obviously) and again, that was absolutely woeful.

How drivers coped with the engine heat and cramped cab in service I don't know, I've had an Alexander Dash in service and that was a wonderful driving experience in every aspect and I've been told that CB regretted not moving to the Dart earlier. They only took 10 step entrance darts in contrast to a large number of Metroriders all of which had fairly short lives with CB.
 
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cnjb8

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Optare have always seemed slow to evolve their double deck offering. The Spectra (whilst a great bus) was offered up until 2003/2004 and styling originated from step entrance days.

The Excel 1/2’s and Solos were fairly uniformed (headlights/body/rear layout) and it would have been nice to see a double deck version of these (DAF chassis). No doubt Nottingham City Transport, Ipswich Buses, Reading Buses, Blackpool Transport etc would have been interested.

Clearly all personal preference but the Tempo never really cut it for me. The Excels (despite their flaws) were so striking and modern when launched the Tempo failed to create as much excitement. In the rush to low floor the Solo was first choice for independents/municipals even though Dart MPD’s were on the market. First/Stagecoach also took them in great numbers.

Not persevering with the Rapta / Solo + was a big disappointment. I recall the big fanfare and unveiling of them at the NEC and they seemed so modern and different to anything on offer.

The current Metrodecker and Metrocity just seem like glazed boxes on wheels. It’s as though they put all their effort into getting them lightweight then tried to make them look appealing afterwards.
I'm not sure Nottingham would have been interested. I think for double deckers they went to East Lancs.
 

fgwrich

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I would on the section i've put in bold disagree on the basis that in the years prior to First buying Streetlites their main new single decker types were Enviro200s, Enviro300s and B7RLEs not Versas.

It's interesting you bring up the Rapta, there was also the Solo+ that never really took off along with a string of body on van/truck chassis designs such as the Toro, Soroco & Bonita (Ford Transit).

Then more recently there was another Optare Bonito but this time a low floor product based on a Fiat Ducato chassis that was offered from 2012 to 2014, perhaps Optare's biggest failure yet given that it was put in to production and never saw a single sale!

That's fair enough - Did any of the First Group subsidiaries purchase any of the WF Streetlites at all? I was thinking more in terms of though that the option was there, having gone in the drive from Volvo B7RLE's et all to what could have been a largely Wrightbus based order list of Streetlites & Streetdecks. Arriva certainly has it's mix of WF & DF Streetlites.

For comparison (to the reading buses saga), do we know how long it took Optare to build the FK Solo SR's, from the order announcement to the delivery?
 

cnjb8

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That's fair enough - Did any of the First Group subsidiaries purchase any of the WF Streetlites at all? I was thinking more in terms of though that the option was there, having gone in the drive from Volvo B7RLE's et all to what could have been a largely Wrightbus based order list of Streetlites & Streetdecks. Arriva certainly has it's mix of WF & DF Streetlites.

For comparison (to the reading buses saga), do we know how long it took Optare to build the FK SoloR's, from the order announcement to the delivery?
No WFs for First. Solo SRs went to First at Hoeford and Weymouth in 2014, and First South West in 2018. I can't think of any other examples for First. Buses of Somerset have one Wright StreetLite WF but it is second hand from Mistral.
Standard delivery time for Optare is a year.
 

TheGrandWazoo

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No WFs for First. Solo SRs went to First at Hoeford and Weymouth in 2014, and First South West in 2018. I can't think of any other examples for First. Buses of Somerset have one Wright StreetLite WF but it is second hand from Mistral.
Standard delivery time for Optare is a year.

First West of England also received 9 Solo SRs for Bath in 2018.

The only Streetlite WFs I can recall with First were loan ones from Mistral in Somerset; they had a handful at various times.
 

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Another factor contributing to the current woes at Optare is the fact that the Mellor Strata bodied Mercedes has been picking up a number of orders from operators looking for a modern day 709 equivalent. They may not be the prettiest, but they’re significantly cheaper to buy and run than a Solo.
 

Jordan Adam

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Another factor contributing to the current woes at Optare is the fact that the Mellor Strata bodied Mercedes has been picking up a number of orders from operators looking for a modern day 709 equivalent. They may not be the prettiest, but they’re significantly cheaper to buy and run than a Solo.

Even the smaller Sprinter City has found success on routes that would've once used 709Ds or Solos.
 

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At first Kernow, regularly drive 18 plate E200MMC and 68 plate solo SR. As a driver The solo build quality feels vastly superior, no rattles, smoother drive (both types have a 4.5 4 cylinder Cummins) But different Gearboxes.
I gather lead time on SoloSR is close to 12 months from order to delivery, which may put off many clients. ADL appear to turn buses out much quicker.
 

RustySpoons

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Another factor contributing to the current woes at Optare is the fact that the Mellor Strata bodied Mercedes has been picking up a number of orders from operators looking for a modern day 709 equivalent. They may not be the prettiest, but they’re significantly cheaper to buy and run than a Solo.

I wonder if the issue with the Alero was that it was just ahead of its time?

Obviously there were reliability issues, but when it was on the market there were still plenty of 709s around and DDA compliancy wasn't thought about too much. But if it was available now I wonder if it'd be a decent option to fill the smaller end of the market?
 

awsnews

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I am not convinced that the criteria for success or failure in the future aesthetics is going to be the biggest driver. There is a big shift away from diesel propulsion going on and it is how the manufacturers adapt that is going to determine survival or not. Optare have been early adopters of electric technology and whilst they have have their problems others have sti to catch up with where they are. ADL currently do well with their BYD collaboration but given their North American ownership now and the political influence over there the ADL/BYD combination might not have a long term future. Hydrogen technology is still in its relative infancy compared to the alternatives so a lot is going to depend upon what the big manufacturers such as Scania and Volvo do next, Volvo have been successfull with hybrid technologies but what else in the Uk market so if a newcomer to the market comes along and takes sufficient market share (look what has happened with Ticketer) who knows what direction the market wil take.

Optare set the bar high when they introduced the original Solo and have probably spent the entire time since trying to emulate that success but not quite managing to do so with a range of what are esentially derivatives. They tried and failed with the Alero and the Bonito but just maybe they have something else to bring to the market to create another step change in product design.
 

Stan Drews

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I wonder if the issue with the Alero was that it was just ahead of its time?

Obviously there were reliability issues, but when it was on the market there were still plenty of 709s around and DDA compliancy wasn't thought about too much. But if it was available now I wonder if it'd be a decent option to fill the smaller end of the market?
Unfortunately the Alero had the turning circle of a large container ship, so was completely impractical for day to day service work.
 

Mikey C

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East Lancs were for a long time the bodybuilder of choice for the smaller operator, or for operators who needed small batches of double decker buses. For a time the triaxle Olympus was popular with those needing a high capacity vehicle to do local coach work.

That business Optare walked away from and ADL has quite successfully targeted those operators.
I mentioned that on the other thread. East Lancs also had decent business bodying double deckers in London PLUS a useful niche in open top tourist buses, a business ADL and Wrights don't seem to have been interested in

All thrown away in the drive to only sell integral buses, letting in the likes of MCV as another supplier of bodywork for Volvo in the UK

ADL, already the market leader, are now happy to body other chassis. The niche tri-axle B8/E400 XLB, is exactly the sort of work which East Lancs (or Wrights) would have been doing previously
 
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