Greater Anglia New Passenger Information Screens

F Great Eastern · 27 Jun 2020

londonmidland said:
I hope other operators under the Abellio company don’t go the same way as GA have and replace their P.A system with an inferior text-to-speech system.

I think the TTS system is provided by Blackbox but it’s optional as to whether the TOCs want to use it or not.

It is - some stations got the new screens and kept the old announcements for a while.

In a few GA stations there were Infotec screens and Blackbox screens running at the same time with announcements from the legacy system and it was noticeable that the Blackbox screens were less accurate and slower to break latest information than the legacy stuff.

Not sure if it's improved since March, haven't been on a train for a while.

I wouldn't be surprised if JourneyCheck was on borrowed time and replaced with something far less transparent.

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py_megapixel · 27 Jun 2020

F Great Eastern said:
The new solution also is phasing out Javelin. There's post processing/editing/modifications going on before the data goes out to the Blackbox screens, whereas I believe that the Infotec screens were using more raw data that hadn't had as much post processing applied.

This was very noticeable when the first Blackbox screens were put in at Ipswich as often you used to see most sources of data singing from the same hymn sheet as the Infotec screens with none of the incorrect information that the blackbox screens had appearing.

Abellio are also on record of saying that the thing about the new screens is that they can fully customise the content and the information that is shows, which is basically an admission that it's not using raw data and instead is being post processed.

Has anyone observed how accurate these displays are when it comes to delays? Are they fairly accurate with their predictions like the Infotec screens or do they underplay or overplay them?

The following post is a theory, albeit backed up by observations and also by stuff I've read on here, but there remains a chance it's incorrect.

As far as I'm aware, the Infotec screens are, at most stations, just screens. They rely on a separate system to tell them exact what to display. This system is for most TOCs provided by a company called Worldline, which is a subsidiary of French I.T. company Atos. This system is also responsible for providing the automated announcements, which is why the announcements always matched the screens and also why the screens were mostly in perfect sync with each other. This system takes its information straight from Darwin.

From what I've seen of the Blackbox screens it seems that they operate more as their own units, each contacting a central data feed (which is controlled by the TOC and not straight from Darwin) by themselves. This explains the out-of-sync problems that are reported on here (as they are controlling the exact details of how its displayed by itself and not in sync with anything else). I would assume that the announcements are a separate unit which plugs into the PA system and gets its data in largely the same way as the displays

In short, the legacy system is akin to having one computer look up the data and then the screens are lots of monitors connected to the same computer. The new system is akin to each screen looking up the data on its own.

I want to reiterate that this might be wrong and I am more than happy to be corrected.

F Great Eastern · 27 Jun 2020

py_megapixel said:
The following post is a theory, albeit backed up by observations and also by stuff I've read on here, but there remains a chance it's incorrect.

As far as I'm aware, the Infotec screens are, at most stations, just screens. They rely on a separate system to tell them exact what to display. This system is for most TOCs provided by a company called Worldline, which is a subsidiary of French I.T. company Atos. This system is also responsible for providing the automated announcements, which is why the announcements always matched the screens and also why the screens were mostly in perfect sync with each other. This system takes its information straight from Darwin.

Infotec have their own system to pull information from Darwin and have done for a while now, it's called Javelin.

http://www.infotec.co.uk/javelin-brochure/JAV-mktng-online.html#page=4

You can read about the Waterloo implentation of it here:

Latest News and Information - Infotec Passenger Information Displays

py_megapixel · 27 Jun 2020

F Great Eastern said:
Infotec have their own system to pull information from Darwin and have done for a while now, it's called Javelin.

http://www.infotec.co.uk/javelin-brochure/JAV-mktng-online.html#page=4

I find that slightly odd, because changes in the CIS provider do change how information is presented on the displays. Usually small things such as whether the destination is in capital letters or whether it says "(Great Western Railway)" or "Great Western Railway service" but maybe I'm making false correlations and all this is configurable by the TOC?

jon0844 · 27 Jun 2020

py_megapixel said:
IIRC the way the old Infotec displays worked was that the display integrated with an existing PIS solution, whether provided by Atos, KeTech, Amey or someone else. However, TTS is nothing new on the railways: for quite a while now some Infotec screens have integrated a system provided by Acapela Group which effectively reads the contents of the display, in a feature which the company calls "Micro PA"

Incidentally I wonder if the Infotec displays could work with the Blackbox data feed?

To properly convey the information from the Blackbox feed you just need to turn the screen off. All you lose are the animations.

iphone76 · 28 Jun 2020

F Great Eastern said:
It is - some stations got the new screens and kept the old announcements for a while.

In a few GA stations there were Infotec screens and Blackbox screens running at the same time with announcements from the legacy system and it was noticeable that the Blackbox screens were less accurate and slower to break latest information than the legacy stuff.

Not sure if it's improved since March, haven't been on a train for a while.

I wouldn't be surprised if JourneyCheck was on borrowed time and replaced with something far less transparent.

Funny you say that. I haven’t been able to get GTR journeycheck to work for a few weeks now.

I'm also now afflicted by the new text to speak system and small CIS screens at my local GA station. Yay.

jon0844 · 28 Jun 2020

Text to speech can be excellent. Most navigation systems, Alexa, Google and others are brilliant and sound perfectly natural. Heck, even Alexa's whispering mode sounds great (imagine a platform whispering train info so as not to wake up local residents!!!!).

TTS can of course be bad, and I'm sure the railway will do its best to ensure it doesn't disappoint.

F Great Eastern · 28 Jun 2020

iphone76 said:
Funny you say that. I haven’t been able to get GTR journeycheck to work for a few weeks now.

It's been discontinued by all of the GTR TOCs.

They now have a different solution in house which appears not to be using the same feeds as Journeycheck did.

The best thing about Journeycheck is the transparency of it showing everything that effects any service in one place in an easily accessible way so the passenger is informed of anything that can possibly effect their journey in a clear way.

Over the last few years. Many PR minded people in train operating companies believe it can show a negative image of their operations during disruption and have suggested it should be sidelined or replaced altogether with something that can have the information 'clarified' , 'made simpler' which is effectively code for showing less information.

noodlepoodle · 27 Jul 2020

Just been through Tottenham Hale for the first time in a while. The new PIS announcements on platform 4 are a disaster waiting to happen when it starts getting busier - the fast Kings Lynn train (379 with Stansted Express written on the side) was being announced as the following Stansted service by the auto announcements, luckily a short form so the staff could prevent travellers getting on the wrong service. I wonder what triggers the announcements as it’s not the same thing as the screens.

jon0844 · 27 Jul 2020

noodlepoodle said:
Just been through Tottenham Hale for the first time in a while. The new PIS announcements on platform 4 are a disaster waiting to happen when it starts getting busier - the fast Kings Lynn train (379 with Stansted Express written on the side) was being announced as the following Stansted service by the auto announcements, luckily a short form so the staff could prevent travellers getting on the wrong service. I wonder what triggers the announcements as it’s not the same thing as the screens.

Random number generator it seems...

RailWonderer · 5 Aug 2020

It is looking increasingly likely that GA have only switched to this new robotic muffled amazon voice to give less information than what the ATOS gave by default.

If a service has no first class or a trolley service/buffet like it should, it will not be announced, nor will the formation. This is so that if a train ‘is formed of 4 coaches today’ it will no longer draw attention to the fact it should have been 8.

I don’t see any other reason to replace a clear announcement system to this cold sounding new one. I imagine it’s depressing tone matches the atmosphere the government has created.

Ultimately this matters because they have moved to a new PIS that is less informative than the last.

Is there any hope asking GA to revert to the old system that tells the formation and where bicycle/wheelchair zones and first is located?

py_megapixel · 5 Aug 2020

RailWonderer said:
It is looking increasingly likely that GA have only switched to this new robotic muffled amazon voice to give less information than what the ATOS gave by default.

If a service has no first class or a trolley service/buffet like it should, it will not be announced, nor will the formation. This is so that if a train ‘is formed of 4 coaches today’ it will no longer draw attention to the fact it should have been 8.

I don’t see any other reason to replace a clear announcement system to this cold sounding new one. I imagine it’s depressing tone matches the atmosphere the government has created.

Ultimately this matters because they have moved to a new PIS that is less informative than the last.

Is there any hope asking GA to revert to the old system that tells the formation and where bicycle/wheelchair zones and first is located?

I think you might be a little cynical there... Atos can after all be reprogrammed as AGA themselves demonstrated with rewording the delay announcements!

londonmidland · 5 Aug 2020

RailWonderer said:
Is there any hope asking GA to revert to the old system that tells the formation and where bicycle/wheelchair zones and first is located?

Greater Anglia said to me the system can be changed back at anytime based on customer feedback, so it’s worth emailing them your thoughts about it.

F Great Eastern · 5 Aug 2020

londonmidland said:
Greater Anglia said to me the system can be changed back at anytime based on customer feedback, so it’s worth emailing them your thoughts about it.

Did Greater Anglia say that on April 1st?

I've fed stuff back to them about the information systems and I've either been told that I am mistaken or they've avoided addressing the actual question asked and instead reply with some PR guff about how good the new system is and what it allows them to do and how much they are investing in it, which I couldn't care less about.

What I want as a passenger is informative display screens and announcements that show the maximum useful data possible in a clear, easy to read and uncluttered way that allows me to be on the right platform and have an idea of where my train might stop or in the case of IC, what formation the train is in. None of these are things which are hard to provide. The old displays and the old announcements systems had it nailed for years without a problem.

What Greater Anglia appear to want is to avoid giving passengers any information that could be perceived as being negative to their patrons. Better not to mention something at all rather than mentioning that it is missing, because the later is less damaging for their image, which for some time has been more important than customers needs.

jon0844 · 18 Sep 2020

I saw a screen this morning at Broxbourne. Can't believe how much animation there is for not a lot of information.

Plus the train formation information is pointlessly animated and takes around a minute to show again once it goes - with more time given to two repeated 'see it, say it...' alerts.

There's simply no need to animate absolutely everything. It smacks of someone using video editing software for the first time and going 'Ooh, let's use that transition! And that one! And that...'.

Most of that information could be static and prioritised in such a way that you can always see the important data at a glance. Then have part of the screen changing to show less important detail. Who wants to stand looking at it for 60 seconds?

I could get my phone out of my pocket and get the information quicker!

iphone76 · 18 Sep 2020

jon0844 said:
I saw a screen this morning at Broxbourne. Can't believe how much animation there is for not a lot of information.

Plus the train formation information is pointlessly animated and takes around a minute to show again once it goes - with more time given to two repeated 'see it, say it...' alerts.

There's simply no need to animate absolutely everything. It smacks of someone using video editing software for the first time and going 'Ooh, let's use that transition! And that one! And that...'.

Most of that information could be static and prioritised in such a way that you can always see the important data at a glance. Then have part of the screen changing to show less important detail. Who wants to stand looking at it for 60 seconds?

I could get my phone out of my pocket and get the information quicker!

They are really a step backwards as they are currently configured. At Wickford, they also don't seem to cover the first 2 trains for the day and remain blank.

F Great Eastern · 13 Dec 2020

Greater Anglia's PR department have as per usual done a sterling job of dressing up what is a downgrade in terms of accuracy and visibility of information as being a complete upgrade.

Technology upgrade at all Greater Anglia stations brings benefits to passengers

www.greateranglia.co.uk

Whilst the issues are not as bad as they once was, there is still far too much animation and I have seen far more issues since they have been introduced in the region than the Infotec screens had in their entire life.

Some of the other technology work that GA have done has indeed been an improvement but these screens are a step backwards, animation has been given too much importance over the continual display of information and the company have shown no signs of acknowledging this, clearly preferring style over substance.

Even the first screen in the PR photo that's mid animation perfectly highlights the problem, but it did occur to me perhaps they took many many photos and were unable to get one where all three of the screens were not mid animation!

py_megapixel · 13 Dec 2020

F Great Eastern said:
Greater Anglia's PR department have as per usual done a sterling job of dressing up what is a downgrade in terms of accuracy and visibility of information as being a complete upgrade.

Technology upgrade at all Greater Anglia stations brings benefits to passengers

www.greateranglia.co.uk

Whilst the issues are not as bad as they once was, there is still far too much animation and I have seen far more issues since they have been introduced in the region than the Infotec screens had in their entire life.

Some of the other technology work that GA have done has indeed been an improvement but these screens are a step backwards, animation has been given too much importance over the continual display of information and the company have shown no signs of acknowledging this, clearly preferring style over substance.

Even the first screen in the PR photo that's mid animation perfectly highlights the problem, but it did occur to me perhaps they took many many photos and were unable to get one where all three of the screens were not mid animation!

That's a really awful press release.

In the first sentence alone, they've failed to capitalise or hyphenate "Wi-Fi" (which is a trademark) and incorrectly stated that all stations have been upgraded, when later in the same page they admit that there is one which hasn't been (not sure which, it doesn't say).

Also, does anybody else find it incredibly cringy when organisations refer to themselves in the third person like that?

All of this sounds very nitpicky, but Abellio is a huge company which should be able to proofread their web pages.

They also claim that 159 new announcement systems have been installed at 132 stations??

F Great Eastern · 13 Dec 2020

They also refer to the old LED screens in most stations as Dot Matrix, to try and make them sound older and more outdated than they were as well, which made me smile to myself.

I'm assuming they are talking about a station nearer the London end which they share with another operator.

It's probably worded in third person so lazy journalists can just copy and paste it, which it seems a few of the local newspapers in the area have done.

Bletchleyite · 13 Dec 2020

As it's an Abellio TOC, I assume the ones we have not long got on the Marston Vale are of the same type? I quite like them there. They aren't quite as good as the ones on Thameslink from a different supplier, but they are clear, easy to read and flexible, and will no doubt get further improvements by way of software patches. Not as easy to read from a distance without my glasses on is probably the only real downside I've noticed.

What is of note, though, is that the Marston Vale installation is entirely landscape-format screens, which does make the layout easier to read (though at the moment about a third of it is taken up with a "wear a mask" notice - someone needs reminding that dynamic display screens are not the place for static information; that should go on posters). Perhaps a lesson has been learnt?

F Great Eastern · 13 Dec 2020

Bletchleyite said:
As it's an Abellio TOC, I assume the ones we have not long got on the Marston Vale are of the same type? I quite like them there. They aren't quite as good as the ones on Thameslink from a different supplier, but they are clear, easy to read and flexible, and will no doubt get further improvements by way of software patches. Not as easy to read from a distance without my glasses on is probably the only real downside I've noticed.

What is of note, though, is that the Marston Vale installation is entirely landscape-format screens, which does make the layout easier to read. Perhaps a lesson has been learnt?

Don't know what you have on the Marston Vale Line.

Those screens, the layout and presentation they use trace their routes back to the Scotrail versions which were installed in 2017 and from what I've seen very little has changed, but I admit I've never actually seen the Scotrail ones in the flesh right at the start. ScotRail appear to have gone back to using Infotec recently for new installs.

Despite these screens being on the GA network for over 18 months now, I've seen little to suggest that there has been more than slight tweaking here and there. I was certainly hoping that they would have made more progress than they have, with leads me to the question of if they will ever be addressed.

Infotec have gone down the scrolling route rather than animation/pages route in recent times and this is a lot better since you're keeping the maximum info on the screen as possible and always using the full screen at all times.

An example of the TFW screens:

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EnBmNWbWMAEwnum?format=jpg&name=large

(credit: Infotec Twitter)

Bletchleyite · 13 Dec 2020

Here's a picture of one care of the Marston Vale Community Rail Partnership's Facebook page:

I seem to recall them having been updated now to display a little picture of the formation at the bottom.

They aren't as fancy as the Infotec ones but they seem decent to me.

F Great Eastern · 13 Dec 2020

The most annoying thing for me is the needless amount of animation and refreshing of the screen to reload the same details that are already on the screen and the fact that they were lagged or often incorrect. There's no need for the animation and to constantly re-load the whole screen, a simple page change or scrolling is far better or if you have to have animations, just animate the bits that change rather than reloading the whole screen.

The other big problem is when there are banks of them in main halls, that all displays often don't update in sync with each other, so you'll sometimes get trains which don't show up at all and one train that will show up twice. For some reason this seemed to happen at Norwich more than anywhere else, although that may well simply be because it's a busy station.

I remember for a while Ipswich had both the old Infotec screens up and the new screens up for a little period and the older ones appeared to be quicker to update as well as less laggy.

AlexNL · 13 Dec 2020

Could the single station which hasn't been updated be Berney Arms?

trebor79 · 13 Dec 2020

AlexNL said:
Could the single station which hasn't been updated be Berney Arms?

That's what I was thinking too!

jon0844 · 13 Dec 2020

Bletchleyite said:
Here's a picture of one care of the Marston Vale Community Rail Partnership's Facebook page:

I seem to recall them having been updated now to display a little picture of the formation at the bottom.

They aren't as fancy as the Infotec ones but they seem decent to me.

The screens are themselves fine, and they can display any detail in any way - so it's just the backend that seems so flawed. As said by many, including myself, there are simply too many fancy animations and transitions that hinder the access to key information - with a focus on the less relevant information. Making you have to wait over a minute to see the train formation is just silly.

It's like I'd imagine myself to be with video creation if I ever got access to Adobe After Effects. I'd be like a kid in a candy shop wanting to try every little effect going and going 'woo, cool'. But this isn't a fun project; it's providing essential information to people.

It can of course be fixed, but how old this thread now?

To be fair, some of the older Infotec displays had flaws too and limitations, but the company has addressed this over time and the new screens are very dynamic and keep the key information on display at all times.

Greater Anglia New Passenger Information Screens

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