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Revival of the night trains continue, ÖBB to start Vienna-Paris

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JonasB

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Night trains are coming back. And according to a tweet from ÖBB, they plan to start operating Vienna-Paris in 2024.

ÖBB said:
Wir sind im Gespräch mit den Beteiligten. Ab 2024 planen wir eine Direktverbindung mit dem Nightjet zwischen Wien und Paris.

(From 2024 we plan a direct Nightjet between Vienna and Paris.)
 
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mister-sparky

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Wonder whether this will be an extension of the current route to Brussels, or a new route further south? Interesting
 

Austriantrain

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Wonder whether this will be an extension of the current route to Brussels, or a new route further south? Interesting

Via Brussels would mean a far too late arrival in/far too early departure from Paris, so I don‘t think this is likely.
 

30907

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Via Brussels would mean a far too late arrival in/far too early departure from Paris, so I don‘t think this is likely.
Agreed.
On the German Drehscheibe site are comments that OeBB are also targeting Berlin-Paris: the two portions would, I imagine, combine somewhere in the Frankfurt-Mannheim area (depending on the route from Vienna - the historic route is via Munich and Stuttgart, which would mean that going via Brussels would add a couple of hours to what will be a 13-14 hour journey).
I imagine OeBB will also be looking at running additional portions East of the joining point, but that's speculation.
 

JonasB

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Agreed.
On the German Drehscheibe site are comments that OeBB are also targeting Berlin-Paris: the two portions would, I imagine, combine somewhere in the Frankfurt-Mannheim area (depending on the route from Vienna - the historic route is via Munich and Stuttgart, which would mean that going via Brussels would add a couple of hours to what will be a 13-14 hour journey).
I imagine OeBB will also be looking at running additional portions East of the joining point, but that's speculation.

Maybe the plan is to add a couple of sleeper cars from Paris to the Zürich-Berlin night train? Northbound it departs Frankfurt Süd 00:54 so it should be doable.
 

30907

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Maybe the plan is to add a couple of sleeper cars from Paris to the Zürich-Berlin night train? Northbound it departs Frankfurt Süd 00:54 so it should be doable.
That would work reasonably well, though the times in Paris wouldn't be ideal (nearer 1800/1000 than 1900/0900 at a rough estimate). However, the Berlin/Hamburg train is booked load 14 so they'd have to knock out the DB internal IC coaches. Or do a complete rejig of the timetable?
 

Austriantrain

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However, the Berlin/Hamburg train is booked load 14 so they'd have to knock out the DB internal IC coaches. Or do a complete rejig of the timetable?

The Hamburg and Berlin portions do get separated along the way though. I am not sure where. Göttingen? Not the right place admittedly through which to run a Paris - Vienna train, too far north.
 

30907

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The Hamburg and Berlin portions do get separated along the way though. I am not sure where. Göttingen? Not the right place admittedly through which to run a Paris - Vienna train, too far north.
It's Hildesheim which is a fraction further North still.
But I think JonasB was suggesting this for the Paris-Berlin cars over the section from Mannheim/Frankfurt, with the Vienna portion running East from there.
OeBB's model works by combining portions into whole trains as far as possible, so they will want a "package" of new workings.
 

Austriantrain

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It's Hildesheim which is a fraction further North still.
But I think JonasB was suggesting this for the Paris-Berlin cars over the section from Mannheim/Frankfurt, with the Vienna portion running East from there.
OeBB's model works by combining portions into whole trains as far as possible, so they will want a "package" of new workings.

Being from Austria, I am aware of that. But the suggestion was made by someone here that the Paris - Berlin portion should be combined with the Zurich - Berlin train. Since this can only be done from the point the Zurich train sheds its Hamburg part and a Paris - Vienna train cannot feasibly run via Hildesheim, the whole structure would need to change (e.g. Separating the Hamburg and Berlin sections of the train from Zurich at Mannheim), but this would substantially increase operating costs.
 

30907

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Being from Austria, I am aware of that. But the suggestion was made by someone here that the Paris - Berlin portion should be combined with the Zurich - Berlin train. Since this can only be done from the point the Zurich train sheds its Hamburg part and a Paris - Vienna train cannot feasibly run via Hildesheim, the whole structure would need to change (e.g. Separating the Hamburg and Berlin sections of the train from Zurich at Mannheim), but this would substantially increase operating costs.
The suggestion in post #5 was to "add a couple of sleepers" to the Berlin-Zurich.
As I said in #7 the problem is that the train is already 14 cars, but that includes 3 DB coaches which are AIUI priced on the normal DB tariff.
There is a newer Drehscheibe suggestion that Zurich-Hamburg and -Berlin might be split, rather as you suggest. (Berlin could then take the shorter route via Erfurt.)
 

SHD

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But how do you suggest to move a small consist of three or four sleeper cars from Paris to Frankfurt or Zurich? It would make little economic sense to move these cars in the form of their own little train.

In any case you would need a 16.7 Hz - 15 kV and 50 Hz - 25 kV locomotive, cleared for France and Germany, equipped with KVB and with train heating. Rare bird you’re looking for - BR181s come to mind but AFAIK they have been retired from service. E37000 / 37500s have no train heating. BR189s are limited to 140 km/h. ES64U2s or U4s such as ÖBB Tauruses 1216 are the best choice (once equipped with KVB) and for a Paris-Berlin run, it would make sense to use the historical route through Brussels.
 

43096

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But how do you suggest to move a small consist of three or four sleeper cars from Paris to Frankfurt or Zurich? It would make little economic sense to move these cars in the form of their own little train.

In any case you would need a 16.7 Hz - 15 kV and 50 Hz - 25 kV locomotive, cleared for France and Germany, equipped with KVB and with train heating. Rare bird you’re looking for - BR181s come to mind but AFAIK they have been retired from service. E37000 / 37500s have no train heating. BR189s are limited to 140 km/h. ES64U2s or U4s such as ÖBB Tauruses 1216 are the best choice (once equipped with KVB) and for a Paris-Berlin run, it would make sense to use the historical route through Brussels.
Siemens have never cleared any of the EuroSprinters or Vectrons for France, which is an extra headache. DB have TRAXX 185s and 186s that are cleared for France, though.
 

Austriantrain

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But how do you suggest to move a small consist of three or four sleeper cars from Paris to Frankfurt or Zurich? It would make little economic sense to move these cars in the form of their own little train.

That is why the ÖBB NightJet system of combining train portions is probably the only realistic solution.

And that is also what was being discussed: A train Paris - Vienna with a portion to Berlin that transfers to the Zurich - Berlin train. The problem being that the Zurich - Berlin train only has capacity to take additional cars from Hildesheim, which is far too much north for a Paris - Vienna Route.

So either you separate the Zurich - Hamburg and Zurich- Berlin trains completely or at least further south than now, eg at Karlsruhe or Mannheim, both of which could be served by the Paris - Vienna train.

Of course operating costs would rise - and the economics of NightJet operations are by no means easy.
 

TRAX

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Yup, 185 would be the most likely here.
And it is hoped that the Vectron gets an authorisation for France in the next few years.
 

Howardh

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London to Barcelona would suit me down to the ground!
 

StephenHunter

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Was there any daytime trains Paris to Vienna in the past?

My July 1974 Cook's Continental has one - Rapide 101/D265 Mozart. Departed Paris Est 0745, then went via Strasbourg, Kehl, Stuttgart and Munich (with a reversal there), arriving at Vienna Westbf 2235. The reverse, D264/Rapide 110 left Vienna at 0825 and arrived at 2311.

However, like most international services back then, this was less a train and more two or three through coaches. It expanded and accelerated over time, turned into a EuroCity and ran until 2002 when it was split. Paris-Munich is now a TGV, with Munich-Vienna a Railjet.

http://www.welt-der-modelleisenbahn.com/d-zug-mozart.html (in German)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mozart_(train)
 

30907

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Just picked up a report on Austrian media that OeBB plan to order a further 20 Nightjet sets, on top of the 13 already building.
 

popeter45

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Just picked up a report on Austrian media that OeBB plan to order a further 20 Nightjet sets, on top of the 13 already building.
interesting, how much is continued replacement of old stock to be entirely new stock and how much is for new routes?
also when is the planed first arrival of this new stock for testing?
 

Memma

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That's really great news - if they can get Amsterdam back too, coupled with the new Swedish trains from Hamburg to Stockholm and Brussels to Malmo, and expansion of the French night train network things are looking good!
 

Austriantrain

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interesting, how much is continued replacement of old stock to be entirely new stock and how much is for new routes?
also when is the planed first arrival of this new stock for testing?

Word here in Austria is that the old stock will stay. Not sure about the ex-CityNightLine-Double deck sleepers though. I would imagine these will go as they form a small non-standard fleet.

In any case the original 13 sets were meant for traffic to Italy due to increased fire regulations there. The additional 20 sets will hopefully enable expansion. Modernising Night trains from Austria to the East should be a priority as well.
 

30907

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Word here in Austria is that the old stock will stay. Not sure about the ex-CityNightLine-Double deck sleepers though. I would imagine these will go as they form a small non-standard fleet.

In any case the original 13 sets were meant for traffic to Italy due to increased fire regulations there. The additional 20 sets will hopefully enable expansion. Modernising Night trains from Austria to the East should be a priority as well.
Yes, that was explicit in the report I read https://wien.orf.at/stories/3061713/
The Double-deck stock is the oldest (but with the nicest DeLuxe compartments) though as sleepers go it has plenty of life yet.
I hadn't thought of using the new sets on trains into the Balkans - I thought OeBB didn't supply stock for these.
 

Austriantrain

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Yes, that was explicit in the report I read https://wien.orf.at/stories/3061713/
The Double-deck stock is the oldest (but with the nicest DeLuxe compartments) though as sleepers go it has plenty of life yet.
I hadn't thought of using the new sets on trains into the Balkans - I thought OeBB didn't supply stock for these.

They don‘t. But night trains from Vienna to the East could really do with better standards. They are simply unattractive at the moment for most people.
 

JonasB

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That's really great news - if they can get Amsterdam back too, coupled with the new Swedish trains from Hamburg to Stockholm and Brussels to Malmo, and expansion of the French night train network things are looking good!

If I'm not mistaken, the plan is to start Amsterdam-Vienna in December this year.
 

Austriantrain

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If I'm not mistaken, the plan is to start Amsterdam-Vienna in December this year.

Exactly. AFAIK Wien and Innsbruck -Amsterdam with a daily service. Brussels service not Daily, but more often than currently.
 
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